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New York Wants A New LGA?  
User currently offlineBlueman87 From United States of America, joined exactly 5 years ago today! , 535 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 16995 times:

i found this article on line just a minute ago. Is this for real?

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2818660520100428


B6 T5 JFK DL T2/3 JFK
79 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4479 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 16971 times:

Bad link............

User currently onlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2881 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 16944 times:

It was a topic before 9/11, it was only a matter of time before it would come up again. The statements from PANYNJ in that article are right on. I hate going to La Garbage. Unfortunately, with that limited space it's not like a new airport would be an EXPANDED airport so the congestion remains the same, just a nicer terminal experience.


"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlineBoeing1970 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16905 times:

Probably means the most efficient way to rebuild the terminal infrastructure would be to close it for a while, level whats there, and start anew rather than try to do it piece meal and integrate older building portions.

Anyone know how old the runways themselves are? Could be an issue there too.


User currently offlineBlueman87 From United States of America, joined exactly 5 years ago today! , 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16884 times:

try this one http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2818660520100428


B6 T5 JFK DL T2/3 JFK
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5385 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16842 times:

Tear it down. Build residential and commercial development in its place. Build a true high-speed rail link from Midtown to JFK. Force airlines at JFK to use larger aircraft. Run the shuttles half as often.

LGA is a nightmare and nothing you can build at that location will make the situation any better.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16857 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16776 times:

What Director Ward is refering to is the rebuilding of the CTB (Central Terminal Building), something that has been put off because of the lagging economy and the fact that the Port Authority's resources are streched between rebuilding the World Trade Center and building the new Hudson rail tunnel.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineBoeing1970 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16592 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 5):
Force airlines at JFK to use larger aircraft.

Yeah. Good luck with that.


User currently offlineN92R03 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 338 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16594 times:

LGA serves a good purpose as it is so much more convenient than JFK/EWR. Sure, the facility is pretty bad (been in the Men's room in any of the terminals?? Nice single stall), outdated is not even close. However just look back to Saturday March 13 when the north east was getting hammered with rain. JFK and EWR were effectively shut down, but LGA being just that much farther away from the coast was still operating. My DL flight was appx 15 minutes late departing....

Two weeks ago with great weather it still took over an hour on a Sunday afternoon to get from Manhattan to JFK, then another 90 minutes to get through the two (yes 2) x-ray machines that were operating in the DL terminal. Not to mention it was about 85 degrees in the terminal. I'm not even going to mention the lack of personal hygiene for many of the travelers. Rather ridiculous in my book. I could not wait to get on the plane and sit in line with the runway construction, at least the A/C was working and I was in the exit row!

LGA is an old dog, but as far as getting to/from NYC, it still gets my vote.


User currently offlinerjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16405 times:

Quoting N92R03 (Reply 8):
LGA serves a good purpose as it is so much more convenient than JFK/EWR. Sure, the facility is pretty bad (been in the Men's room in any of the terminals?? Nice single stall), outdated is not even close. However just look back to Saturday March 13 when the north east was getting hammered with rain. JFK and EWR were effectively shut down, but LGA being just that much farther away from the coast was still operating. My DL flight was appx 15 minutes late departing....

Two weeks ago with great weather it still took over an hour on a Sunday afternoon to get from Manhattan to JFK, then another 90 minutes to get through the two (yes 2) x-ray machines that were operating in the DL terminal. Not to mention it was about 85 degrees in the terminal.

A lot of travellers' experiences will depend on what airline they are flying. The experience you described is very common for passengers flying Delta at JFK; it would not happen in any other terminal at JFK though.

At LGA, the US Airways terminal is quite nice (ironically it is the most underused terminal out of the three NYC airports). The Marine Air Terminal is also fine. The Dela terminal is in good shape once you clear security. It is only the Central Terminal Building that is disgusting.

American recently announced plans to effectively re-build Concourse D internally. Hopefully once that is done, a big part of the CTB will be in much better shape.


User currently offlineAirport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16364 times:

I can see massive renovation to some of the terminals...but having everything torn down and starting over seems a little extreme and a waste of money. There are still perfectly good facilities there, and so far as I know, the runway is still functional. From a layout standpoint, is it even possible or realistic to make it more efficient use of space than it is, and if so, how?

Cheers!
Anthony/Airport


User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3432 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 16190 times:

"However just look back to Saturday March 13 when the north east was getting hammered with rain. JFK and EWR were effectively shut down, but LGA being just that much farther away from the coast was still operating. My DL flight was appx 15 minutes late departing...."

There are never delays at LGA on Saturday. There is a severely reduced schedule at LGA on Saturday.

Regularly, there is a runway closed at LGA on Sat for construction without the slightest blip.

I have landed at LGA on a Saturday in near-hurricane conditions and been 15 min early.

Saturday at LGA is like JFK used to be in the morning and mid-day . . . you could spot bowling games on the runway. Then came jetblue and the Delta hub! In 10 years the place has become a round the clock zoo. haha


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5385 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 16062 times:

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 7):
Yeah. Good luck with that.

I think shutting down LGA would force them to do it in order to maintain any sort of reasonable relationship between supply and demand.

But if they simply raised prices instead, we could interfere further. Impose a rule that says: for anyone using JFK slots to fly multiple frequencies a day to a single destination, if they don't meet certain criteria for average numbers of passengers carried per flight to/from that destination over time, they lose the number of slots necessary to get them back to that number.

I'm not entirely opposed to hard-line measures to end slot abuse in New York, because I think in the long term lower frequency and larger equipment would be a tremendous benefit to both New York travelers and the nationwide air network. But there's a prisoners' dilemma to solve before we can get there.

[Edited 2010-04-28 16:16:30]

User currently offline727lover From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6422 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 16019 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
Saturday at LGA is like JFK used to be in the morning and mid-day

That's not my experience. Granted, not nearly as busy on Saturday, but I think you're exxaggerating a bit.



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineindolikaa From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15702 times:

I wonder what kind of environmental impact study would be needed to allow for a complete tear-down and rebuild? The potential asbestos mitigation alone could be cause for trouble...


Vote for Pedro
User currently offlineBoeing1970 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 15214 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 12):
Impose a rule that says: for anyone using JFK slots to fly multiple frequencies a day to a single destination, if they don't meet certain criteria for average numbers of passengers carried per flight to/from that destination over time, they lose the number of slots necessary to get them back to that number.

You cannot impose such a rule.


User currently offlineBlueman87 From United States of America, joined exactly 5 years ago today! , 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 15120 times:

Quoting rjpieces (Reply 9):
At LGA, the US Airways terminal is quite nice

it is nice if you go through security they need to do something about waiting for your arrivals there is nothing



B6 T5 JFK DL T2/3 JFK
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15068 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 5):
Build a true high-speed rail link from Midtown to JFK. Force airlines at JFK to use larger aircraft. Run the shuttles half as often.
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 12):
I'm not entirely opposed to hard-line measures to end slot abuse in New York, because I think in the long term lower frequency and larger equipment would be a tremendous benefit to both New York travelers and the nationwide air network.

So much for the free market. Just playing devil's advocate, but how would it be a tremendous benefit to NY travelers to reduce competition and increase fares? By "imposing" such a rule, that's effectively what you're doing. Unles you want to regulate the airline industry again.


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5385 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15005 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 17):
So much for the free market. Just playing devil's advocate, but how would it be a tremendous benefit to NY travelers to reduce competition and increase fares?

Because right now the airlines are scheduling half again as much traffic as the New York airports and airspace can handle during peak hours, leading to moderate delays even when everything is going right and daily cluster#%@s when a drop of rain or a snowflake appears.

If New York air traffic were able to run on schedule under most weather conditions, the entire country would benefit.

I don't want to impose more regulation than necessary to make that happen, but the airlines have proven so resistant to any form of change (probably because their customers don't internalize how badly broken the current model is) that I think drastic measures may be necessary.


User currently offlineBoeing1970 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 14889 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 18):
I don't want to impose more regulation than necessary to make that happen, but the airlines have proven so resistant to any form of change (probably because their customers don't internalize how badly broken the current model is) that I think drastic measures may be necessary.

So then you are proposing re-regulation. That's the only way this could occur.


User currently offlineThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1645 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 14098 times:

LGA did pretty well with gravel runways and DC-2s.

User currently onlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13547 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 13691 times:
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As long as there's no method in place for PANYNJ to compensate carriers that have invested, in some cases, hundreds of millions of dollars on LGA slots and infrastructure for a forced shutdown of the airport, LGA will not be shuttered.


"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinejfk787nyc From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 812 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 13070 times:

Delta has taken a particular liking in LGA.

Does anyone know when Delta will take over the operations of US Airways at LGA?

I know the deal involves taking over in full US Airways terminal at LGA, But what happens to Delta's terminal do they build a mega terminal together?


User currently offlinesoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 12793 times:

And this "New Airport" will be funded how?...If my memory serves me well...New York and all it's agencies are on the coat tails of California, fiscally speaking. The Port Authority is run much better than the MTA which is currently a disaster however the PA can't be that far ahead either. Don't tell me this is a third term self elected Mayor Bloomberg thingie...is he going to re name it "Bloomberg Field?...tell me it isn't so...   

User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5385 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 12605 times:

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 19):
So then you are proposing re-regulation. That's the only way this could occur.

"Re-regulation" would mean going back to setting routes and fares. I'm advocating 1) closing LGA and 2) tightened slot control at JFK (and EWR). I don't particularly care where the airlines want to fly from New York or how much they want to charge. I just want them to reduce the number of movements to a point where the system has some hope of operating as designed.


25 csavel : Actually EWR is furthers from the coast. JFK is on Jamaica Bay which is on the Atlantic. LGA is on the par of the East River where it pretty much mer
26 flyinryan99 : So you're for taking away infrastructure when more is obviously needed? It's like taking an interstate from 8 lanes down to 4 just so you can put gre
27 AAJFKSJUBKLYN : I got news for any non-new yorkers out there. LGA has been a quiet blessing in the past 4 months....Have you seenhow JFK itineraries have been expande
28 PPVRA : Not necessarily, especially considering the huge costs congestion imposes. What is needed is this: privatize all airports, and do a similar type of d
29 STT757 : It's better to have public agencies like the Port Authority in control of assets such as airports, they have the power of eminent domain to acquire p
30 seabosdca : I agree. But in the long run, coupled with appropriate improvements to the other two airports and to the transportation infrastructure for getting to
31 irobertson : I hate to say this... but I'm with seabosdca on this one. There are far too many shuttle operations and high-freq inter-city routes with small aircra
32 Post contains images JAAlbert : I have the perspective of being just a simple passenger not employed in the aviation industry. I know nothing of CASM, RASM, MTOW, loads, yields, x,y,
33 milesrich : I agree. The central terminal is 46 years old, opened in 1964 and could use renovating. The easiest solution to NY's airport problems is to spend the
34 Post contains links PPVRA : Eminent domain is messy. And not necessary: Japan has very weak eminent domain laws despite their massive infrastructure investment, and not just in
35 STT757 : EWR and JFK would easily be able to pick up the slack from the closure of LGA by simply replacing all those regional jets and props with 73G, A319, 7
36 Post contains links PPVRA : Actually that's the wrong link, here's the one I was looking for: http://www.aar.org/InCongress/Balanc...anced%20Regulation.aspx?sc_lang=en There are
37 apodino : The problem there was NIMBY opposition, as the NIMBY's in uptown queens don't want an extended subway to LGA plowing through their neighborhood. The
38 contrails : Close LGA for any period of time? Can you imagine how the NYC congressional delegation would respond? Personally I hate LGA and I avoid it like the pl
39 jeffrey1970 : I can just see the political battle over the cost and land.
40 FoxBravo : I have to laugh at all the whining from people who have passed through LGA once or twice and found the bathrooms icky or the ceilings too low. As a li
41 catiii : So it would seem to me then that the answer isn't restraining competition and growth, the answer is the federal government stepping up, modernizing t
42 isitsafenow : I said this before and will say it again. LGA needs another runway. Check the stats on how many aircraft movements vs pax are placed on only two runwa
43 catiii : Which, by mandating airlines fly certain equipment at certain times, you are essentially doing.
44 Post contains images seabosdca : And I mean that in the kindest possible way... Maybe I'm more pessimistic because my company's New York office is pretty far downtown. But I can spen
45 silentbob : There is no way they can increase the landing rate in inclement weather to accommodate all of the current traffic. All of the technology in the world
46 seabosdca : At some point, there are only so many flights you can fit into a given area. I believe that at peak hours the New York airports have exceeded that li
47 AirNovaBAe146 : Interesting question: If one could design an improved CTB - what would it look like? AN
48 FoxBravo : True, Wall Street is less convenient (to anywhere--I say that having worked there), but Midtown is under 30 minutes by taxi, often less depending how
49 catiii : Landing rate maybe, but departures could absolutely be increased. We'll have to agree to disagree. My contention is that it is the role of government
50 STT757 : That's why part of the plan should be to place the elevated right of way below ground. [/quote]The solution that most of the locals are pushing for i
51 cslusarc : Good ideas! With the second point the "Reverse Perimeter" should start off by being 125 miles as to exclude PHL and BDL from LGA. When AMTRAK makes a
52 September11 : so LGA and PHL are the two highly recommended airports to temporarily close, demolited, and rebuild...
53 N92R03 : Which is exactly why I try to book my returns on Saturday. One Saturday afternoon at the US Airways terminal I was literally the only person in the s
54 Post contains images comorin : Me TOO!! I Love LGA. I'm safe and sound at home by the time I get in a cab at JFK and crawl to the LIE. The gates are easy to get to; what's not to l
55 Corinthians : All three NYC airports are slot restricted by the FAA in some way. JFK and EWR are limited to 83 movements per hour and LGA is 71 (down from 75). Slo
56 Post contains links PPVRA : British airports operate under price controls. It's not going to work under these circumstances. The Economist had a big report on this a few years a
57 Jacobin777 : Add me to the list....when I lived in the Upper West Side (took the M60 IIRC), I rarely, if ever flew out of JFK and never out of EWR. LGA is an easy
58 Ltbewr : My suggestion would be to create a 'transportation center', relocating all parking to south of the Grand Central Parkway/Ditmars Blvd. This Center wou
59 DocLightning : When you have a gang of six teenagers trashing an alleyway you don't just stand by and watch them, you do something. They aren't going to regulate th
60 PPVRA : Nobody is expecting them to regulate themselves. But you do expect the owner of the property to regulate its use. It is this relationship that is mea
61 Post contains images lightsaber : LGA would be tremendously improved if all aircraft were required to have 'synthetic vision' for both pilot and co-pilot as well as GPS based ATC. That
62 seabosdca : My experience at LHR (which, to be fair, I spent a lot more time at in the '80s and '90s than I do today) is that there are usually minor delays, but
63 United787 : I think LGA needs to be completely started from scratch like MDW was. MDW went from being a cluster$#&k to a great efficient airport that is easy
64 lightsaber : I agree. There is no easy answer, but there are solutions. Synthetic vision coupled with GPS based ATC would reduce (but not eliminate) delays. If th
65 seabosdca : I can get behind this! Let's start building some tracks for real trains. Let's start with a high-speed link from Midtown to JFK, and possibly also a
66 DocLightning : It is true and it is one of many reasons I left NYC: the transit situation there is impossible. Can't come, can't go, can't move around. What LGA nee
67 EWRandMDW : Since LGA is operated by a bi-state agency, New Jersey will need something to its benefit in order to agree to anything. Remember, it is New York AND
68 catiii : So let me get this right...you're equating airlines meeting market demand in the epicenter of the universe (sorry to all my friends who don't agree)
69 milesrich : Midway is different from LaGuardia in many ways. While MDW is located on a one square mile tract of land, they were able to move the terminal buildin
70 seabosdca : It's only the illusion of meeting market demand. The airlines deliberately schedule more operations than the airports can handle because the first on
71 Boeing1970 : This is a myth. Not one airport in the US is "over-scheduled".[Edited 2010-05-03 09:03:44]
72 JAAlbert : I of course agree with this point. The NYC subway system is not pretty, but it's the best in the world. The difference between an NYC subway station
73 milesrich : Because without it, the airlines would have attempted to schedule just about everything but transcons from LGA. In the late 1960's and 1970's, UA fle
74 indolikaa : You're talking about London, right? Yes. And good luck with that one. Even if you got it approved at the bureaucratic level, someone will build the H
75 cws818 : Of course, because, hypothetically, the 2 runways that LAX uses for departures can simultaneously process the 5+ or so flights scheduled for an 0800
76 apodino : That is not exactly true. MDW does have 5 runways, but of those 5 only 4R-22L and 13C-31C are authorized for air carrier operations, and these two in
77 flyinryan99 : I would agree...but I think that would entail closing runway 13/31. I'm no expert and I just want to throw an idea out there. Lengthen 4/22 to 9,000f
78 Boeing1970 : Published gate times are irrelivant. They represent the begining of the departure window.[Edited 2010-05-04 08:31:19]
79 Post contains images lightsaber : If I knew how to achieve that goal, I would have suggested a solution. I agree, that is the way to go with LGA, but how? Last I looked, it is the 07:
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