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OAG Changes 4/30/2010: AA/AM/AS/B6/CO/DL/FL/UA/VX  
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7180 posts, RR: 13
Posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10586 times:

This compares what is for sale THIS WEEK for the stated period versus what was for sale LAST WEEK...It does NOT compare to last year or now.

How to read:
ABE-MDT 3>2 APR means a reduction in one roundtrip from 3 to 2 for April only
ABE-MDT 3.8>2.7 APR-JUN This is the raw format of the data which sometimes I'm too lazy to retype. It means that over a month they were averaging a little less than 4 trips per day and now it's a little less than 3 per day. So, basically they cancelled 8 flights per week or so. Airlines are doing A LOT of non-daily ops now, so these fractions are pervasive.
ABE-MDT 4>6 MAY- means an increase from 4 to 6 roundtrips starting in May and continuing
ABE-MDT 4>6 MAY-JUN, 5>6 JUL means the change is only for the stated period May to June and then a different change for July in the same route

Please take it easy on any typos, there was a lot to type...


BTW, there may not be an update next week as I'm having some contractors doing electrical work.

AA
BOS-STL 2>0 JUN-JUL
CSG-DFW 0>2 JUL-
DFW-HOU 8>7 JUN-
DFW-LFT 4>3 JUN-
DFW-LRD 5>4 JUN-
MIA-FPO 5>4 JUL-AUG
MIA-MHH 2>1 JUL-AUG
MIA-NAS 10>9 JUN-
MIA-TLH 3>2 AUG-

AM
Wanna take bets if theis ever starts?
MIA-MTY 0>1 JUN-

AS
LAX-SJC 0>4 AUG-
OGG-SAN 0>1 OCT-
PDX-KOA 0>3/WK NOV-

B6
BDL-FLL 0>2 NOV-
BDL-MCO 0>2 NOV-

CO
EWR-ORF 6>5 SEP
IAH-AEX 6>5 SEP
IAH-LCH 7>6 SEP

DL
FOLLOWING EFF SEP-, UNLESS NOTED
ATL-BNA 11>10
ATL-CAE 12>11
ATL-CVG 6>7
ATL-DAB 5>4 LEAST SVC EVER? 3XM80 1XCR7
ATL-DEN 8>9
ATL-GSO 12>11
ATL-GSP 12>11
ATL-KIN 3/WK>2/WK
ATL-LEX 9>8
ATL-MDT 5>4
ATL-MYR 5>6
ATL-NAS 3>2
ATL-OAJ 5>4
ATL-ONT 2>1
ATL-PHL 10>11
ATL-PVD 3>4 SEP
ATL-PWM 2>3 SEP
ATL-SAT 9>8
ATL-SDF 11>10
ATL-SFO 6>7
ATL-STL 9>8
ATL-TYS 11>10
ATL-CUR 1/WK>0 NOV

CVG-BNA 4>3
CVG-CMH 4>3
CVG-JAX 3>2 NOV
CVG-MSY 2>1 OCT

DTW-BDL 5>6
DTW-BGR 4>3 SEP-OCT
DTW-DEN 4>3
DTW-ESC 1>2 AUG-
DTW-GRB 6>5
DTW-IND 7>8
DTW-JAN 3>2
DTW-LAS 5>6
DTW-LEX 6>5 AUG-
DTW-MDT 5>4
DTW-PHL 8>7
DTW-RSW 3>2 SEP
DTW-SAN 3>2
DTW-SEA 3>4
DTW-SFO 3>4
DTW-SMF 1>5/WK
DTW-TPA 3>4 AUG-
DTW-TVC 5>6
DTW-XNA 3>2

JFK-MCI 1>0 SEP

MEM-AEX 2>3

MSP-BIL 3>2 SEP
MSP-BMI 2>1
MSP-CID 5>4
MSP-GRR 6>5
MSP-MKE 7>8
MSP-OMA 7>6
MSP-PHX 5>6 SEP
MSP-RSW 1>2 SEP
MSP-SEA 5>6
MSP-YEG 4>3
MSP-YQR 4>3
MSP-YVR 1>2
MSP-YXE 4>3
MSP-YYC 2>3 SEP

SLC-BTM 2>3 SEP-OCT
SLC-BUR 3>4
SLC-COS 2>3
SLC-FAT 4>3
SLC-GJT 3>4 SEP
SLC-JAC 5>4 SEP
SLC-ONT 4>5 SEP
SLC-PSC 6>5
SLC-SMF 5>6
SLC-TUS 5>4

FL
ATL-SFO 3>2 NOV-
BOS-MCO 0>1 OCT-
BOS-RSW 0>1 NOV-
BOS-SRQ 0>1/WK NOV-
BWI-DFW 1>0 SEP-
BWI-PBI 0>1 NOV-
BWI-SEA 1>0 NOV-
CAK-RSW 0>1 NOV-
FNT-RSW 0>1 NOV-
HPN-PBI 1>2 NOV-
IND-MCO 3>2 SEP-OCT
IND-RSW 2>9/WK SEP-OCT
IND-SRQ 0>1 NOV-
MCO-MDW 3>2 OCT
MCO-STL 1>1/WK SEP-OCT
PIT-RSW 1>2 NOV-
PIT-TPA 0>1 NOV-
RSW-GRR 2/WK>5/WK NOV-

UA
DEN-BOI 5>6 AUG-
SFO-DFW 1>2 SEP-
ORD-GSO 4>5 AUG-

VX
YYZ-LAX 0>1 JUN-
YYZ-SFO 0>1 JUN-

YX
LAS-MKE 2>1 OCT-

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1307 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10543 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
BWI-DFW 1>0 SEP-

It seemed hard to compete on that route with only 1 flight. I doubt that is seasonal


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6608 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10339 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 1):
It seemed hard to compete on that route with only 1 flight. I doubt that is seasonal

It's been seasonal for about 5 years and always seems to come back.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7180 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10313 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 1):
It seemed hard to compete on that route with only 1 flight. I doubt that is seasonal

They had 2 in the Summer and then were going to have 1 in the Winter. They have now given up on that plan for winter. I agree 1 RT is tough. OTOH, they are building up the North spokes, so if they keep cutting the South spokes the hub will collapse on itself.


User currently offlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1541 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9923 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 3):
OTOH, they are building up the North spokes

What? All they've done to the north is cut BTV.

Quoting enilria (Reply 3):
OTOH, they are building up the North spokes, so if they keep cutting the South spokes the hub will collapse on itself.

You have it backwards. FL arguably doesn't have enough North/East spokes. ROC, PWM, and BOS. That's it and we all know how competitive one of those routes is.



717,72S,732/3/4/5/G/8/9,744,752/3,763/4,772/3,D9S/5,M8/90,D10,319/20/21,332/3,388,CR2/7/9,EM2,ER4,E70/75/90,SF3,AR8
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32781 posts, RR: 72
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9876 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
AM
Wanna take bets if theis ever starts?
MIA-MTY 0>1 JUN-

I bet this one will launch. The bets are on how long it lasts. It will be a daily MD-87.

I would have though MX/AA is better for the market with an A318.



a.
User currently offlinemtnwest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2458 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9751 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
AA
CSG-DFW 0>2 JUL-

Nice to see this for Columbus.



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2911 posts, RR: 30
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9681 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DTW-ESC 1>2 AUG-

Interesting to see a change like this in an EAS market.

The current bid for Escanaba is a combined one with Iron Mountain. One daily IMT-ESC-DTW and one daily ESC-IMT-MSP, all with Saab 340.

Bidding is currently underway for a new 2-year period, and Mesaba's bid for combined ESC/IMT service is *twice* daily IMT-ESC-DTW and once daily ESC-IMT-MSP. Delta has already loaded it for sale in spite of the DoT decision not yet being made.

There's definite community support for Mesaba's proposal to do this, but it's not certain they will get the EAS bid. Ironwood and Manistee are lumped into the ESC and IMT bid, and Great Lakes is an all-or-nothing proposal. If they don't get ESC and IMT, they're not going to continue to serve Ironwood or Manistee as they do today. So if Mesaba gets ESC and IMT, then IWD and MBL get one of two oddball bids left on Sovereign Air (King Air flights to ORD) or Charter Air Transport (an odd variety of EM2 or J31 proposals to MKE or MDW)

The new bid won't start until at least September, so Mesaba is apparently planning to go ahead with the expansion even before the new bid period starts.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22995 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8874 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
BOS-STL 2>0 JUN-JUL

BOSSTL is going away altogether, IIRC.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineavconsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8549 times:

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 6):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
AA
CSG-DFW 0>2 JUL-

Nice to see this for Columbus.

When was this announced?


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7180 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8242 times:

Quoting FL787 (Reply 4):
What? All they've done to the north is cut BTV.

GRR is north of BWI.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
BOSSTL is going away altogether, IIRC.

Correct, but now it ends in May instead of July as noted.


User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 1045 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8174 times:

Quoting avconsultant (Reply 9):
Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 6):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
AA
CSG-DFW 0>2 JUL-

Nice to see this for Columbus.

When was this announced?

This week:

AA Announces New Market: Columbus, GA


User currently offlineJBAirwaysFan From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8141 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
ATL-DAB 5>4 LEAST SVC EVER? 3XM80 1XCR7

No, January of 2009 had a similar situation. They would switch between 3xM80/1xCR7 and 4xM80. Delta.com has 2xM80 and 2xCR7 right now.

[Edited 2010-04-29 17:49:13]


In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4562 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7801 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
IND-MCO 3>2 SEP-OCT
IND-RSW 2>9/WK SEP-OCT

Makes me wonder if FL is in the process of pulling out of IND. If I recall correctly from one of Knopes previous threads MCO and RSW from IND were some of FL's better performing routes in their entire network. Not long ago MCO had 4x daily and 5x daily on weekends. RSW was 3x daily and 4x daily on weekends. They pulled LAX before it started. And ATL which was at one time 5x daily is now down to 3x daily. I believe the 3x daily to ATL and 2x daily to MCO is what FL started IND with.

Maybe someone with inside knowledge at FL can explain these odd changes.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2911 posts, RR: 30
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7730 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 13):
Makes me wonder if FL is in the process of pulling out of IND.

I'm sure FL isn't going anywhere at IND, but the Florida routes seem to be the cash cows. These MCO and RSW changes are year-over-year cuts...MCO from 3x last fall to 2x this fall ,and RSW from 16/week last fall to 9/week this fall...but I think the real "meat" will be to see how the winter schedule looks. Fall is usually soft to Florida, and perhaps this is just a reaction to too much lift last fall.


User currently offlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1541 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7315 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 10):
GRR is north of BWI.

But people are much more likely to fly GRR-BWI-PWM/ROC/BOS than they are GRR-BWI-DFW/SAT/MSY so I would not group it with the Northeast destinations.

Quoting Indy (Reply 13):
Makes me wonder if FL is in the process of pulling out of IND.

Seriously? FL will pull out of a lot of other stations before they pull out of IND.

Quoting Indy (Reply 13):
Not long ago MCO had 4x daily and 5x daily on weekends. RSW was 3x daily and 4x daily on weekends.

Not too long ago as in only a few weeks ago. No reason to believe it won't be the same next year from Feb-Apr. FL does very well on IND-Florida.

Quoting Indy (Reply 13):
They pulled LAX before it started.

Not enough airplanes. Don't read into it. It will be back next year hopefully.

Quoting Indy (Reply 13):
And ATL which was at one time 5x daily is now down to 3x daily.

Not IND specific at all. Lots of ATL routes have been reduced from a few years ago. MSP used to have 6 and now only has 4, CLT only has 2 flights now on some days, PNS and MCI down to 3, etc. It is reflective of ATL a lot more than it is reflective of IND. FL would not have added IND-LGA/BWI if they were planning on leaving. I do wonder how increased fees at IND have affected FL though.

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 14):
Fall is usually soft to Florida, and perhaps this is just a reaction to too much lift last fall.

I would bet that FL is going to reduce schedules over the entire system in the Fall even more drastically than last year. FL and fall don't get along. Especially not with fuel being higher.



717,72S,732/3/4/5/G/8/9,744,752/3,763/4,772/3,D9S/5,M8/90,D10,319/20/21,332/3,388,CR2/7/9,EM2,ER4,E70/75/90,SF3,AR8
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7180 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6344 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 13):
Makes me wonder if FL is in the process of pulling out of IND.
Quoting FL787 (Reply 15):
But people are much more likely to fly GRR-BWI-PWM/ROC/BOS than they are GRR-BWI-DFW/SAT/MSY so I would not group it with the Northeast destinations.

GRR-ROC? LOL That's ridiculously out of the way. (399 miles n/s, 299+528=827 miles)
GRR-PWM? Market size ZERO
GRR-BOS, OK you got one.

GRR-Florida is clearly going to be the biggest O&D, but GRR-BWI-DFW is less % out of the way than GRR-BWI-ROC.


User currently offlineAtlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6244 times:

As been said in many of the other threads FL is short of aircraft and will tweak and retool the schedule as such to benefit the entire network until the new planes come rolling in. If anything all indications point to BWI growing not shrinking. Also when it comes to FL schedules the do reduce frequencies and then sometimes later in the month they increase them. They have a very good forward momentum and I see them growing that. There are many markets that could be added north of BWI to Bwi. As I always say never underestimate FL.


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6762 posts, RR: 32
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6143 times:

Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 17):
If anything all indications point to BWI growing not shrinking. Also when it comes to FL schedules the do reduce frequencies and then sometimes later in the month they increase them. They have a very good forward momentum and I see them growing that. There are many markets that could be added north of BWI to Bwi.

Very few of the viable markets north of BWI now lack service on either Southwest or AirTran. I suppose they could try BWI-SYR, but the dropping of BTV points to that not being a workable market. I doubt they're going to fly from BWI to ORH, PBG, or BGR. I suppose YYZ, YUL, or YOW could be possible, but they'd be difficult to make work. BOS-BWI is going to be the single most important route for keeping AirTran's BWI hub viable.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 2):
It's been seasonal for about 5 years and always seems to come back.

BWI-DFW probably won't be back in 2014.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6608 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6061 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 18):
BOS-BWI is going to be the single most important route for keeping AirTran's BWI hub viable.

Very true and one reason why I think FL will keep the route despite the bloodbath with WN/B6. There has been some rumbling that if FL gets more LGA slots (as part of the US/DL swap), they might add a few LGA-BWI frequencies. Obviously, these wouldn't be great for O+D, but they would help build connectivity if FL wants to grow the BWI hub.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 18):
BWI-DFW probably won't be back in 2014.

True enough.


User currently offlineAtlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5925 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 19):
Very true and one reason why I think FL will keep the route despite the bloodbath with WN/B6. There has been some rumbling that if FL gets more LGA slots (as part of the US/DL swap), they might add a few LGA-BWI frequencies. Obviously, these wouldn't be great for O+D, but they would help build connectivity if FL wants to grow the BWI hub.

Could definitely see that. Would be a natural fit. 6x daily frequency would be great.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 18):
I suppose YYZ, YUL, or YOW could be possible, but they'd be difficult to make work.

I think YYZ and Yul will come online sooner then later for sure. Id even say to BWI MKE and MCO before Atl.

Once the aircraft start coming in it will be intresting. They didnt hire 145 FAs and 140 pilots to just sit around. Also as has been said on here BTV which did pretty well was let go to offer GRR which is much larger market. I think if they could do both they certainly would. BTV will be back.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7180 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5822 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 13):
Makes me wonder if FL is in the process of pulling out of IND.

Sorry, forgot to comment. They are definitely not pulling out, but I think the focus is now on MKE for that region.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 19):
Very true and one reason why I think FL will keep the route despite the bloodbath with WN/B6.

Perhaps, but I think at some point they will have 4 flights/day. As long as B6 is trying to be king of BOS, FL is the loser on this route. FL is not the #1 carrier in BWI or BOS. Eventually that will drain their business passengers. They are probably losing a few road-warriors every week to people becoming vested in B6's frequent flier program and same of WN.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 19):
they might add a few LGA-BWI frequencies.

You are right, there would be no local market. It's just not worth the hassle of flying. These would lose money like a sieve.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6608 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5733 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 21):
Perhaps, but I think at some point they will have 4 flights/day.

Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if FL pulls back a little on frequencies. Though I wouldn't be totally surprised if B6 abandons the BOS-BWI market. It's not that critical to their BOS strategy and if anything they need to use the resources to take on WN on BOS-PHL...a more critical component that B6 is missing.

Quoting enilria (Reply 21):
It's just not worth the hassle of flying. These would lose money like a sieve.

If FL intends to build a real hub at BWI, they'll need connections to NYC. It's simply too important of a market not to have. It's the same reason WN flies the route.


User currently offlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1541 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5129 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 16):

The overall point I was making was that if BWI were to collapse as a hub it would be because of a lack of northeast spokes, not southwest ones like DFW as you originally hypothesized. I'll stop arguing now though because I don't want you to stop doing these threads.  
Quoting ScottB (Reply 18):
BWI-DFW probably won't be back in 2014.

No argument there.

Quoting enilria (Reply 21):
Perhaps, but I think at some point they will have 4 flights/day.
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if FL pulls back a little on frequencies.

I don't think FL will reduce frequencies, they'll either keep it 8 or 9 daily or cut the route completely. FL isn't having any problems filling the flights (today through Monday on BWI-BOS has a total of ONE flight booked under 100), the only problem is yields. And one of the only ways to increase yields is to offer frequency over competitors. FL wouldn't last more than a few weeks with only 4 daily flights. FWIW, FL seems to have found a business traveler following on this route that that have not been able to find on a lot of their other routes. We will see whether that continues to be the case.



717,72S,732/3/4/5/G/8/9,744,752/3,763/4,772/3,D9S/5,M8/90,D10,319/20/21,332/3,388,CR2/7/9,EM2,ER4,E70/75/90,SF3,AR8
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6762 posts, RR: 32
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5079 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
If FL intends to build a real hub at BWI, they'll need connections to NYC. It's simply too important of a market not to have. It's the same reason WN flies the route.

Actually, WN flies LGA-BWI because they need it to get passengers between their cities in the Eastern Time Zone and LGA; MDW is out-of-the-way for connections to/from Florida, RDU, ORF, etc. FL can get passengers to LGA from many East Coast markets via ATL.

Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 20):
6x daily frequency would be great.

For LGA-BWI? It would bleed cash unless FL's BWI operation were 200 daily flights.


25 ScottB : It'll be interesting to see what has happened to yields when the Q4 data come out. Yields were only down about 5% from Q2 of 2009 to Q3, but WN and B
26 Post contains images FL787 : Well we know WN is doing pretty well on the route so maybe there are enough business travelers for WN and FL. B6 is the real question mark. That's no
27 Post contains images enilria : Won't happen. They won't run from WN or FL. That would be devastating strategically. For that to happen you'd have to have a regime change at B6. I t
28 Atlwest1 : Hate to break it but they at FL view BWI as viable and continue to do so. They consider it a hub and have for sometime. If you look at the gate space
29 FlyPNS1 : This summer they will fly from BWI to SAT, IND, BOS, MKE, MSY, SEA and LAX...all of which WN flies and are not Florida. You might not realize this, b
30 FL787 : I know what you're saying but when DFW, SAT, and SEA go away in the fall, PWM and ROC go down to only twice daily so there really aren't that many se
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