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UA & CO To Merge! #2  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3432 posts, RR: 26
Posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 25069 times:
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Continued from: UA & CO to Merge!


Rgds

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
231 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineavek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4281 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 25050 times:

Thank God Jeff Smisek reached for the herbicide.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineLDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 975 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 25022 times:

Quoting avek00 (Reply 1):
Thank God Jeff Smisek reached for the herbicide.

That tullip had grown like a bad weed on the tail. Good point!

Still, I think it was a more distinctive logo than the CO globe.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11919 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24994 times:

From thread #1:

Quoting robo65 (Reply 213):
A dozen substantive issues are on the table and this thread zeros in on the paint job.


Well, it's the only thing that was really announced today that was NEWS.

All the other stuff in the press release was well anticipated.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 224):
The one thing that keeps popping in my mind is what will be lost in the merger - the Continental name. Throw what you want onto the tail, it would still be United Airlines in the ads, on the tickets, etc. The power of the CO brand name will be gone.


It's kind of hard to keep the name Continental when you are talking about a much larger world wide airline.

Continental of course brings up the image of one continent, which isn't that helpful to the business clientele they are trying to attract.

As for me, I don't do much if any business flying these days, but since United is the company's carrier of choice, I'll have a lot more options if/when I need to travel.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1564 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 25019 times:

If they are going to go with CO colors and paint (makes little difference to me), I do think it would look better if they at least went with United font and tulip with appropriately modified colors on the fuselage. This quick rendering is far from perfect, but I'm thinking something along these lines (apologies for low quality):



At any rate, the merged airline certainly will be a monster. They should have excellent O&D coverage at many of the largest markets in the USA, not to mention the world in cooperation with their partners. I am most interested to see how the mainline vs. regional scopes are resolved. It seems one of the biggest gains for CO's route network would be 70-seat flying to a lot of markets that are currently forced to either mainline or 50-seater when something in between would be best. Hopefully the pilots and the merged company can come to some kind of mutually beneficial agreement, but I'm sure the negotiations will get hairy.


User currently offlineJFKMan From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 584 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24986 times:

Is the new paint job a joke????

I thought it was a joke!!! It really looks horrible... I can't believe they are getting rid of the fantastic United logo.

but...keep the CO logo and colours and change the name to United???? Just seems....so wrong!



Hey! I'm Tommy (US AIRWAYS RULES)
User currently onlineavek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4281 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24930 times:

Quoting JFKMan (Reply 5):
Just seems....so wrong!

But yet is so right when you consider the various demographics the move pleases.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineAirCanadaA330 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24828 times:

Quoting JFKMan (Reply 5):
Is the new paint job a joke????

I couldnt agree more with that......yuck....I think I am going to be sick, they should have changed it up, some new colours would be nice, I am sad to see the Tulip go, and the font is just bad, doesnt suit the UNITED brand!



Cheers;
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13254 posts, RR: 62
Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24743 times:
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Y'know, no matter what livery choice was unveiled today, everyone would still be bitching about it.

Admit it, it's true - this IS a.net, after all!  

The CO livery is professional and clean, and I'm glad they chose to keep it as the surviving livery and colors. And frankly, I think the "United" titles look pretty damn good, even though I'd like to see a better capital "U" utilized.

So, ultimately, we have:

CO employees/fans not happy with losing the CO name
UA employees/fans not happy with losing the UA tulip/livery

And both groups will eventually get over it and embrace the newly-combined company.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinecokepopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1167 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24613 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 8):
So, ultimately, we have:

CO employees/fans not happy with losing the CO name
UA employees/fans not happy with losing the UA tulip/livery

And both groups will eventually get over it and embrace the newly-combined company

So basically, piss off everyone instead of just one group?


User currently offlineadam42185 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 408 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24616 times:

There are two things I am concerned with in terms of this merger. United's Channel 9 (from the flight deck) and Continental's premium on board service (real meals).

Will we now get the best of both worlds and see an airline that retains Channel 9, which is one of the reasons I would choose United over another airline? I presume that would be easier to keep, and I am not as worried about it.

In terms of on-board service, will United retain the meal services that Continental had? I fear that this is all about cost cutting and the days of meal service on planes within the US are over now, but I hope the new United proves me wrong and that decide that the value of better service is worth more than the cost cutting and that meals continue to be served. That, however, I am more worried about.


User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined exactly 14 years ago today! , 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24616 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
It's kind of hard to keep the name Continental when you are talking about a much larger world wide airline.

Continental of course brings up the image of one continent, which isn't that helpful to the business clientele they are trying to attract.

Where do you get that "Continental" refers to only ONE continent? To me it refers to not a city- or country- level context, but a continental (i.e. global) one... the globe logo reinforces and complements that. In other words I believe the "trans-" prefix is implied. However, that said, I also believe the choice of using the United name was the correct one.

[Edited 2010-05-03 13:01:36]


An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlinedbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 861 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24569 times:

I think it makes perfect sense (well, at least with the paint scheme)  All they have to do is put a "United" decal on all of the Continental planes and the entire fleet is flying under the United brand.  Then they can take their sweet time either painting the United planes into the Hybrid livery, or come up with an entirely new paint scheme.

[Edited 2010-05-03 12:59:56]

User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13254 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24551 times:
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Quoting cokepopper (Reply 9):
So basically, piss off everyone instead of just one group?

No, pissing CO employees/fans off would be losing all aspects of CO.
Pissing off UA employees/fans would be losing all aspects of UA.

Under this combination, both are a little irked, sure - but they still get to keep pieces of their respective companies going forward.

The people who ultimately matter most - shareholders and customers - they won't be making their investment or travel decisions based on which livery is used, or if the tulip is gone, or if the HQ is in Chicago.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4141 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24584 times:
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Here in my college classroom, students -- who have followed merger accounts either in USA-Today, the NYT, or the WSJ -- are joking that this is the *best* possible use of United's old 'battleship gray' paint and Continental's unending stock of Euro-white paint.

The merger is about saving money, yes?  


User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1753 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24534 times:
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So.... do you think any planes either Boeing or Airbus have on the assembly lines for either UA/CO will be painted into the new livery?

User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24454 times:

Quoting rj777 (Reply 15):
So.... do you think any planes either Boeing or Airbus have on the assembly lines for either UA/CO will be painted into the new livery?

No planes will be painted into the new livery until the merger is approved - estimating near the end of the year.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13254 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24421 times:
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I LOVE this swipe at US:

"I recognized that United is the best possible partner for Continental," Smisek said on a conference call. "I didn't want him (United's Tilton) to marry the ugly girl; I wanted him to marry the pretty one, and I'm much prettier."



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4141 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24342 times:
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Quoting rj777 (Reply 15):
So.... do you think any planes either Boeing or Airbus have on the assembly lines for either UA/CO will be painted into the new livery?

For anything scheduled for delivery *after* the end of the year -- why not?


User currently offlineCOflyerBOS From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24352 times:

Ugh, I aboslutely HATE this news. I've been a loyal CO fan for two decades, oftentimes going out of my way or paying a little more to fly with CO because of the service provided and the genuinely happy corporate culture that seemed to exist.
My experiences with UA have been the exact opposite with personal stories ranging from lost luggage to a mechanical failure delay being blamed on weather even though my IAH-ORD flight was grounded in MCI for several hours and therefore being stranded at O'Hare overnight as a poor college student.

To me, this is a sad day. I hate that downtown Houston will lose the headquarters. I hate that thousands of my neighbors will go to bed tonight worried about their jobs. I hate that Smisek will personally pocket millions by selling out the people he was supposed to lead. At the end of the day, this merger doesn't make sense to me. If the merger wasn't a good idea 2 years ago, then why is it now when nothing at UA has changed? Sure, the DL/NW behometh is scary, but CO should know that biggest doesn't always equal best.

As for the UA livery being better, here is my thought in a nutshell which pretty much sums up my overall image of United; what United livery are you talking about? I flew out of SFO yesterday and saw what appeared to be 3 different color schemes on UA branded planes. That is NO WAY TO market to the flying public. On Continental, you know what you are going to get and the worst surprise you might find is that the 738 you are flying on hasn't yet been given the DirectTV upgrade!


User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1531 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24361 times:

I had posted this into the old thread, but it ended up after the locking... so...

Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 13):
Interesting choice of branding. It truly seems as though they are trying hard to make it a marriage of equals, and not an acquisition.

Which is a good thing, since both carriers are perfectly capable of surviving alone, unlike with most historical airline mergers.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 40):
Maybe it's just a temporary thing, so they can quickly retitle the Continental planes without doing a full paint over and then after a year or so come with a new livery incorporating elements of both legacies.

I could see that, though the most likely scenario is some tweaking to the existing CO colors and finding a way to incorporate the tulip as a secondary logo. Maybe replace the U that people seem to have so much trouble with in the CO font with the tulip?

Quoting Commavia (Reply 60):
I do expect that Cleveland will be gone within 18 months. Tilton and Smisek will do the same old political song and dance now in order to get the deal approved, but I still believe the underlying fundamentals of that market simply cannot support a hub going forward when the combined airline will now have an excellent alternative.
Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 93):
Also, for all the Cleveland Hopkins fans here what is the future of the CLE mini-hub?
CLE may lose hub status, but it will still likely have a large number of flights for some time to come. Cleveland is not exactly an industrial powerhouse, but it does have several industries that do very well, most significantly medical care. There will always be people who need to fly to Cleveland.

Quoting Kennyone (Reply 74):
Are CO's airplanes going to receive an entirely new coat of fresh paint with the new livery or are they simply going to have the titles changed from CO to United? I take the 2nd option is obviously much cheaper.

They might even, as a temporary measure, have decals created to throw over the CO name for any planes have haven't had the titles changed by the final merger date.

Quoting jetskipper (Reply 85):
I wonder which operating certificate they are going to use and thus which call sign they will be using? United or Continental?

A safe bet would be United.

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 95):
Oh, and while I'm griping, what's with the new holding company's name, United Continental Holdings? Sounds like a tax-haven shell company or something.

It honors both companies that came together to make the new one. And holding companies are, by definition, shell companies. They exist only for the purposes of owning things.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 106):
A dozen substantive issues are on the table and this thread zeros in on the paint job.

That's Airliners.net for you.

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 111):
Here's a couple hybrids I found:

Both of those would be very difficult, if not impossible, to implement using paint. Now, if in the future all aircraft are made with Composites and they find away to bond the color directly to the material...

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 114):
I think the new livery will not last very long. As stated on other replies, once people gets used to the " new " company , they will change it. In any case, I find it very clever to maintain the CO logo and the United name.

They might change it, or they might just tweak a few elements before implementing it (they do have about 6 months or so before any aircraft will reasonably start getting repainted into this scheme, after all).

Quoting United787 (Reply 128):
Judging by the overwhelming negative response to the lazy unimaginative cheap dated hybrid branding from both CO and UA fans, this was a major failure upon delivery! I really hope they hire some professionals to sort this disaster out...

A bunch of people overly attached to things that really don't matter complain... the general public doesn't even notice.
Personally, I rather like it, though I agree that the font could be tweaked some.

Quoting Conti764 (Reply 131):
I don't understand why some people seem to think an airline has to change its identity every 10 or so years? It costs heaps of money and doesn't bring in any advantage. On the contrary, keeping your color scheme around for a long time will make people recognize it, esp. with the reputation CO has build the last 15 years.

And Continentals livery looks classy, distinguished and established. Can you imagine AA without the shiny livery with the three stripes? I remember we once had three different DL liveries around, was that such a good idea?

And this is what I think people are forgetting. 20 years ago, CO had planes flying around in no less than 5 different liveries. They have made it a focus since that time to keep the fleet CONSISTENT. The point is not to be flashy or innovative, but to be professional, clean, and consistent. It would seem that the plan is to bring that same philosophy to the new United.

Quoting Conti764 (Reply 131):
But yes, the CO font doesn't work for United, that's true...

It would look better in a different font, or without the tail on the U, or with the tulip in place of the U. They might make that change before the merger is approved, or we'll all get used to it. Anyone remember how much the new Delta scheme was hated when it was rolled out?

Quoting KLM777300ER (Reply 136):
Secondly, I thought the point of keeping the UA name was because of it's stronger presence and brand around the world, no? I don't understand why the merged company would keep the name for this purpose but then abandon all associations (i.e. the tulip) that people around the globe associate with the name. Suddenly throwing the UA name with the CO globe is confusing.

No more confusing than when an airline succumbs to an ad agency's sweet talk and changes their logo entirely, nor more confusing than seeing a solid red K in Kmart's advertisements and the old K with script logo on the front of the store. Nor any more confusing than having Chef Boyardee products switched to the Campbell's brand label. It happens very often, people make the adjustment, and as long as the product is still good, it still sells.

Quoting Conti764 (Reply 139):
-> This paintscheme requires 'only' 360 planes to be repainted whereas 339 CO planes + all the UA planes in the old livery should have been repainted if the UA color scheme had been kept.

That may very well have had something to do with the decision.

Quoting HouStrategies (Reply 142):
As others have said, once the deal closes and they have more time, they'll probably roll out an all new logo and livery for the plane overhauls.
Quoting United1 (Reply 152):
I think you right...this is going to be reworked in the coming weeks.

As I said above, I could see it being tweaked some, but the indications are that the globe is here to stay.

Quoting sldispatcher (Reply 153):
#1. I don't think most people beyond a few a.netters and FTer's could care one bit what the livery is....
Quoting sldispatcher (Reply 153):
#2. Vast majority of elites will worry about status benefits first...after that, they couldn't care less about the color of the plane. That's typical of most businesses.
Quoting sldispatcher (Reply 153):
#3. If you choose your airline based on the external coloration or font, you'll probably nit pick the whole operation to death.

  

Quoting OA412 (Reply 171):
Agreed! The "look" of the combined carrier is disappointing. CO's is one of the more boring and dated liveries in the US. IMHO, they should have either kept the current UA scheme or come up with something more interesting.

The point is not interesting. If the purpose of airline liveries was to be interesting, NONE of the major carriers would have their current schemes.

Quoting CRJ 900 (Reply 174):
On another note, let's hope Cynthia Rowley designs some great new uniforms....aside from the pilots, the rest of the front line staff at both companies look awful in those dowdy duds.

My understanding is that UA just recently changed their uniforms to ones very similar to CO's. I think in the end they'll just rationalize the two, change the name tags, and be done with it.

Quoting DTWHKG (Reply 191):
UA name and CO logo. Isn't it a perfect combination? Otherwise what else should be called a combination? DL & NW?
Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 199):

So . . . United gets the HQ, and Continental gets the livery.

That's called *compromise* , yes?

And there will be more.

Compromise = No one gets exactly what they want, but everyone's able to live with it.
Seems to fit this situation to me.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 211):
They also MUST find a way to keep the tulip, its just too much a part of United to not keep it around. United has a very long and proud history and to throw the tulip out is to dismiss this long history.

As I suggested above, they could replace the U with the tulip for the name on the plane... of course, to do so they'd probably have to change the font. Another option is to do like Air France (no, I will not combine the two words) and have it on the engine cowlings as a tribute to the past.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 222):
I'm really surprised that none of the "logo/branding experts" on here who are criticizing United in the Continental font haven't pointed out the similarities to the old United font:

Things that make you go "hmmmmmm".

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 223):
I don't disagree with you, but there is always a bit of an adjustment period when you change things. If this livery stays, it will look normal and seem natural the more planes that are painted and the more you see them over and over.

Yep. I know I hated Delta's current scheme when it came out. Now I just see it and say, "Oh, that's a Delta plane." This situation is no different.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlineadam42185 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 408 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24337 times:

I would also like to note that although the "new" livery seems rather uninspired, I think it is a financially smart decision to stick with the CO colors. This way the avoid having to repaint ALL of the planes, and just have to change the letters from CO to United on all of the CO planes. Don't a good number of UA planes still need to be painted anyways? It just seems to make sense to avoid the cost of painting all of the fleet and instead just paint 1/2 (or 2/3, however much UA counts for) and just change the titles on the CO aircraft.

User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5815 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24320 times:

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 16):
Quoting rj777 (Reply 15):
So.... do you think any planes either Boeing or Airbus have on the assembly lines for either UA/CO will be painted into the new livery?

No planes will be painted into the new livery until the merger is approved - estimating near the end of the year.

The 6 787s and 7 737s coming online in 2011 will probably be the first aircraft to come painted this way or whatever way that UA settles on.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5815 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24212 times:

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 20):
As I said above, I could see it being tweaked some, but the indications are that the globe is here to stay.

I think you are right in that the globe is here to stay as are the basic colors I think if anything the font will be tweaked...it just doesn't look right.

Either way I'm thrilled I get exactly what I want out of this merger.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineC680 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 580 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24178 times:

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 12):
I think it makes perfect sense. All they have to do is put a "United" decal on all of the Continental planes and the entire fleet is flying under the United brand. Then they can take their sweet time either painting the United planes into the Hybrid livery, or come up with an entirely new paint scheme.

Exactly. Folks who are nuts about airliners care very deeply about the paint job. The rest of the world is looking for good service at a reasonable price.

If the paint on the plane was really an issue, then there is no way WN could have grown the way they did. (Split Pea Green and Rust Orange? Yikes!)

A couple of key things in the Merger:

1) Its pretty obvious that CO has taken over UA. Evidence: Jeff Smisek is the new CEO, and becomes COB in 2 years
2) The HQ is officialy moving to Chicago, but this looks like the same kind of HQ move that Boeing did a few years ago. Hear and Soul will stay in Houston, and this is a good thing. Not too many peole atlk about the "Can do" spitit of Chicago. Evidence: Smisek will keep an office in Houston and spend considerable time there. You will know for sure where the HQ is when you detrmine if Mrs. Smisek has put the house on the market. I'm betting that doesn't happen.

BIG question: Does the "new" UA go to CO BusinessFirst model for international, or keep the 3+ class setup of the old UA?



My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
25 peergynt : I hear you my friend. I am also very sad with the news. United will drag down the drain the such fine and great service Continental has been providin
26 EA CO AS : So - Presidents Club, Red Carpet Club, or something entirely different?
27 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Yeah, and as a United 1-K flying Continental, I've had this all happen on Continental (like last Friday in PWM when the plane arrived 75 minutes past
28 sccutler : In deference to current times, how about "Red President's Club"? (chuckle)
29 CODC10 : There's no way the 3 class cabin is completely ditched, but it may not be the best product for CO's larger portfolio of European routes. I think it's
30 United1 : HQ and the operations center will be in Chicago (77 Wacker and in the Sears Tower.) I would be careful about stating that CO took over UA both airlin
31 Post contains images kgaiflyer : I doubt it. You obviously haven't flown AA lately. Take plenty of nickels and dimes with you when you fly.
32 VC10er : If you agree that this horrible, poorly done mish-mash becomes the look of the world's biggest and hopefully great airlines, then I would go to Pentag
33 FlyPNS1 : UA's financials have improved and in fact UA is now out-performing CO financially. While CO has certainly delivered a more consistent product over th
34 comorin : I suggest they buy out the PanAm name - a worthy successor and mission accomplished. A personal view - CO does Y very well. UA does p.s. and F very we
35 SeeTheWorld : I'm getting a bit tired of the sour whining going on here ... United has a storied past and the improvement in the airline over the past several year
36 FL787 : Not only that: 3-class vs. 2-class? E+ on the whole fleet? Mileage Plus vs. OnePass? DirecTV? CLE? Scope for Pilots? I don't expect any answers anyti
37 Crash65 : Just to clarify, Continental does not serve PWM. It is outsourced to Colgan from Newark and ExpressJet from Cleveland. The PWM station personnel are
38 RJ111 : Nah i think it generally is a bad call and it seems like most people feel that way. Often when new liveries come out at least some people like. If yo
39 SeeTheWorld : To the passenger who reads "Continental Express" on the side of a Colgan plane, it is Continental. If a company puts its name on a product, they own
40 Post contains images mariner : I like the new livery. I certainly prefer it to the bland blue that United presently has. Given my druthers, I'd prefer the previous (Stephen Wolf) l
41 SeeTheWorld : The average passenger cares about the product, not the packaging ... While the packaging is important, if the product is good, it will have little ef
42 TWFirst : Your reasoning (and several others on here) is confusing to me: Keep the Tulip because it's old Get rid of the Continental livery because it's old ??
43 ua777222 : It's a split either way. Their about 50/50 on active aircraft. CO has something like 330 and UA 350. Merger website hints to a new product to be offe
44 Antoniemey : And at least some people like this livery... myself included. If they're reading it off a Colgan plane then something has gone wrong. Colgan is Conti
45 yellowtail : The name "Presidents Club" sounds so much better that 'Red Carpet"..especially for an airline that has a base in DC
46 Post contains images Revelation : How do you get that it refers to more than one? Do we talk about a "Continental Ballistic Missile" or an "Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile"? You m
47 Adam T. : As a native Houstonian I am disappointed to be losing the CO headquarters prestige as well but I don't see how the heart and soul will still be in Ho
48 VC10er : The Tulip is timeless, the CO livery is dated. As a branding designer that is how we would define the difference between the two.
49 nyc2theworld : Exactly, even the DOT believes that to be the case with the whole CO/Express Jet/DL fiasco in Rochester, MN. Actually, they are going to implement th
50 Conti764 : Strange way of thinking... To counter your argument: the Continental globe represents the 'global ambition' the new United now has. It is about to fl
51 Post contains images EA CO AS : And I feel the opposite. Thankfully the Leadership of the new UA agrees with me.
52 Conti764 : What dumb statement by Smisek... "Oh sure, Jeffrey, let's just kick one of our alliance partners in the nutsack..." Unless United now is set to drive
53 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Just to clarify, they ultimately get paychecks from Continental, yes? But to let them off the hook a bit, a whole bunch of us -- including Colgan fli
54 point2point : Hey, for my 2 cents, your students did one heck of a job designing a cool livery. This is the best that I've seen so far. Simple, clean, the best of
55 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Not beyond the realm of possibility -- if UA didn't need the USAir-Express feed at LGA, PHL, BWI, and DCA. We have to keep the flea-bitten dog becaus
56 Post contains images CODC10 : Swap one Saul Bass logo for another?
57 Conti764 : I wonder how many people still see the battleship colors when they hear 'United Airlines'? CO's livery is established and has a good reception amongs
58 Post contains links HouStrategies : CO letter and FAQ for employees has a lot of interesting details, inc. on the Houston HQ. I thought there was enough interesting detail to justify a n
59 peergynt : Don't get me wrong. I hope United Airlines will succeed in their business and I have nothing against this carrier. I used to be their loyal customer
60 Conti764 : What do you think people wil think of seeing this 1/4th of a globe? A soccerball? A basketball? Or maybe the world...?
61 kgaiflyer : Can't take the credit -- the 789 graphic came from guys at Boeing. But I'm pretty sure our engineering students could do as well.
62 Antoniemey : I think there are a lot of people at both CO and UA who would be enraged if they went to the meatball logo... Not because of the logo itself, but bec
63 Conti764 : Accept for a large chunk of UA aircraft still in the grey paintscheme, whereas all of CO aircraft are in the current (and future UA) livery...
64 Conti764 : That's just your opinion (OK, and maybe of a whole bunch of other A.netters) but obviously not the opinion of the new UA leadership and that's what m
65 ua777222 : Great system if you ask me but I think it really chews away at possible revenue. I've flown with my 1K family member on 6/7 of my last trips on UA an
66 AirCalSNA : From the article in the New York Times it sounds like there will likely be very little or no livery change because both brands are going to remain.
67 Post contains images Conti764 : If the UA paint would be used, it would mean all of CO's planes and all of UA's planes in the old grey colorscheme would need a thorough repaint. Do
68 COflyerBOS : You can call me a fanboy all you want, but MY reality is that United has been unreliable. Sure, I've had some unpleasant experiences on CO, but as a f
69 nyc2theworld : You put into words exactly what I was thinking!
70 AirCalSNA : "We will keep Continental's logo, livery and colors, and our Working Together culture, and I will lead the company as CEO. We will keep the United nam
71 Post contains images Conti764 : There you have it, the boss has spoken Now stop assuming the livery will soon change and accept what's happening.
72 WROORD : Ugh, I guess Mr. Tilton has finally got his wish and a bet big bucks for it. Unfortunately I see a bleak future for employees and consumers. All the a
73 SeeTheWorld : Well, I've been flying United since the 1960s, and I'm a frequent traveler, and they've never "left me stranded overnight with no options, no news, a
74 Post contains images viaggiare : That's precisely the meaning. Look it up. Nope, continental and global are not synonyms. As you say, Where do you get that?
75 SeeTheWorld : They were replaced by LCCs, which is the reason the legacy carriers have to combine into three carriers associated with branded global alliances ...
76 Boston92 : This is pretty standard throughout the airline industry on how it's handled. If it's weather or ATC, you are on your own (on CO, UA, DL etc, this is
77 The777Man : I guess the former CO planes will get fleetnumbers like UA. It doesn't make sense to switch UA's fleetnumbers to CO's fin numbers; CO has a fin number
78 staralliance38 : In my opinion, this merger is OK, but the branding is ugly. I like some of the renditions with the United Airlines font, both old and new, with the CO
79 Delimit : Boring livery is boring. It's a shame; the tulip was iconic. The globe has always struck me as fairly generic.[Edited 2010-05-03 16:03:53]
80 cokepopper : It looks like they went with the cheap alternative and it shows. First word that comes to mind..... uninspiring.
81 FlyIGuy : How about " Presidents Red Carpet Club " ?
82 GymClassHero : Well, after years of bitching, Tilton finally got to pawn United off... So much for my pride in being a Chicagoin.
83 JHCRJ700 : I couldn't agree more. Its a shame to se the tulip go. Was my favorite paint scheme out there.
84 RayChuang : I think this merger will force two questions: 1) What will the merged airline want for its next-generation of single-aisle jets? We may be talking a p
85 justloveplanes : Ugh, I aboslutely HATE this news. I've been a loyal CO fan for two decades, oftentimes going out of my way or paying a little more to fly with CO beca
86 Wroord : What's the LCC these days? limited international service - Alaska has limited international presence and you wouldn't call AK LCC? food: WN gives you
87 SeeTheWorld : An LCC has pricing power because its costs are lower than the legacy carriers. It forces the legacy carriers to charge less than the cost of carrying
88 OA412 : This is the same airline that has made a habit of naming competitors that they bash in their advertising, as well as the airline that, IMHO, publishe
89 sccutler : Not sure how you arrive at this conclusion. The "tulip," as you call it, is nothing but a stylized "U." As a branding mark, the globe is certainly mo
90 jetblue777 : The livery is a joke! "UNITED" doesn't look right on CO's font. I think CO's livery is simply old, they need a new one.
91 adam42185 : My point was that if there was an entirely new logo they would have had to paint ALL of the planes instead of just half, and on top of which some of
92 klkla : I'm surprised at how many people are upset about the livery. To me it seems like common sense. I'm sure one of Continental's concerns about going into
93 SeeTheWorld : Not to come down on you too hard, but clearly, you haven't read the hundreds of comments on this subject .... Had you read them, you would have recon
94 CO767FA : What should AA do with their "old" logo/livery? I think the new name/livery/colors are what I predicted in the last go around (UA name, but CO Logo/li
95 102IAHexpress : My first return to anet in a while (and the return of other users as well) and all anyone can talk about is the paint? What a joke. No wonder everyone
96 Commavia : On a totally separate note, given this United-Continental merger, plus the Delta-Northwest merger, I can't help but wishing that airlines still printe
97 TWA1985 : I don't know what everyone is complaining about ... this is the perfect scenario. The United name, which everyone on this site taunted over and over a
98 PC12Fan : I for one applaud the new livery. How often in a merger do you see the airline that is taking over adopt the airline livery they are taking over? I'm
99 N766UA : The current Continental is, day by day, becoming less and less like the old Continental. How do you expect a combined 'United' to do better?
100 atrude777 : Immediately I think of America West and US Airways, they took US Airways name and livery and tweaked it to include a portion of the AWA livery also.
101 USAirALB : In my opinion, he is much more conservative than Kellener. If he were still here, this merger would not be happening and meals would still be free, e
102 Post contains links BEG2IAH : I looked into both UA's and CO's financials and posted in the thread that was already replaced by another CO/UA merger thread, but if you want to see
103 irelayer : Kind of late to the game...I have to say that I LOVE the idea of United and Continental merging. A mega hub in NYC, strength in both the South and Nor
104 Post contains images PacificClipper : Exactly. Anyone switching away from UA or CO to AA should go ahead make that move. They'll really be in for a treat! Agreed. All personal airline pre
105 fleabyte : as a united 1K million mile flyer, continental gold, and AA platinum executive - my opinion was very negative until reading this string. You see, I ha
106 N766UA : Having grown up with Continental, and being one who is used to and fond of Gordon's leadership style, and the fact that CO always stood out as being
107 kstateinALB : I'd be proud to have the world's largest airline's headquarters based in your hometown...
108 ABQopsHP : Im a little late to the conversation, since I had to work a full-time line today. When I got to work and logged onto the computer I saw the new image
109 USAirALB : Well, no they can start airing the 'We built the largest airline in the free world" commercials.
110 spacecadet : While I don't claim to know the etymology of the name of the airline, the word itself is often used to refer to European customs, e.g. "Continental b
111 kgaiflyer : Some things just don't work that well from Houston. For instance, I do IAD-YYC three time a years; and IAD-ANC and IAD YVR twice a year. IAD-IAH-YYC
112 United Airline : Will they keep UA's new first/business class products? Wonder if we will see bigger planes like the B 747-8/A380
113 TWFirst : So tell me then, what do you believe the interpretation/impression is of the Continental name/brand by those from say Europe or South America? Are yo
114 VC10er : Not just an opinion. The conclusion of airline and design experts. Still doent mean that you're not allowed to like it like Prince's hair. Some peopl
115 newark777 : Who are these so-called experts?
116 Antoniemey : If that was the ONLY thing in their portfolio, sure... If they had that among a lot of other things, I would think it would be an indication of creat
117 CALMSP : worked/vendored by non-CO employees, but the station is under the leadership of the Continental General Manager.
118 C010t3 : That really looks better.
119 C680 : It was necessary to locate the headquarters in Chicago to get the transaction accomplished. However, the merged company will still have a huge presenc
120 VC10er : We need a few new products from the "new" carrier. Both Presidents club and RCC are tired. I would look for something more consistant with a new prem
121 jetpixx : I find this whole thing a joke. People see a huge business deal such as CO and UA merging -- and the biggest beef is the logo and livery - lol What ab
122 newark777 : To each their own, some people do care about the livery, whining about it doesn't help matters.
123 jetpixx : I highly doubt that the airlines and their management care what kids on a message board think. Just because their favorite airplane will be painted d
124 CIDflyer : count me among the the number who are not fans of the new livery. It would be like DL giving up the widget, or AA giving up the eagle, just seems weir
125 Post contains links QF744 : Official livery have been revealed... http://www.united.com/
126 VC10er : I spent most of today taliking to strategic, but mostly creative leaders in airline branding and livery design. Like the person who directed the "Lan
127 Viscount724 : "Dated" is a highly subjective term. What is dated to you may well be considered very attractive to others. And do you really think that 1 in 1000 pa
128 MSPNWA : Pardon my frank comments, but consolidation in the airline industry sucks. My prediction is that this will be looked back on as a sad day in airline h
129 Post contains images United1 : COs livery is very "corporate" which I guess is another way of saying bland but like all things in the aviation industry things change...even the liv
130 Post contains images newark777 : And financial analysts (like yours truly) care about bottom line, not who gets laid off (unless it helps the bottom line ). And many of those manager
131 CODC10 : The CO globe is well-known and certainly not new. The airline's name is United, and its identity is more than just a symbol.
132 mariner : LOL. Someone should tell Universal Pictures that the globe is "dated." mariner[Edited 2010-05-03 20:43:58]
133 Antoniemey : Did you ask these friends at Lippecott why they truncated Delta's logo? I will grant you the point that a globe is not likely to be viewed as origina
134 huaiwei : It is not well known in the market where CO supposedly was after when it agreed to merge: Asia.
135 cws818 : It is certainly not as well known, generally as UA, but CO is certainly well known to those who travel between Asia and the Pacific Islands.
136 Antoniemey : Of course they were. It would be more money for one of them. Also, if you go to Lippincott's website, click on "Our Clients" then select travel as th
137 VC10er : I would be first in line to tell Universal that their globe was dated if it wasmt timeless. My point being is that there are thousands on "globe" log
138 Continental : That scheme shown on the UAL page is going to confuse the hell out of travelers for years. It will probably also trip up many ATC personnel!
139 VC10er : Yes, given Continentals epic turn around Lippencott has snuggled up to that work as close as possible...we would too. We have FedEx and many others s
140 mariner : I find this intensely subjective. Some would say the Universal Pictures globe is timeless and some would say it is dated. I guess some would say it i
141 MasseyBrown : From what I know CO has consistently invested in its IT operations; I don't know if that is true for UA. It might not be surprising to see IT stay in
142 United1 : That would not surprise me. One of the largest expenses that they mentioned today revolved around combining the IT systems between the two companies.
143 huaiwei : And that is supposed to be a significant market? Did UA want CO for the Guam operations? Let's be serious here. How many folks outside Japan in Asia
144 CALPSAFltSkeds : Continental was undoubtedly named for the Continental Divide. So what, do you think DL was named after the Greek letter or the Mississippi Delta? Whi
145 DCA-ROCguy : No time to read hundreds of posts. The USA does not need consolidation. The Obama Administration is not the Bush administration and is not bound by th
146 CO767FA : Stay tuned - it will soon mean something more than "nothing" to you. Time will tell - but as has been stated before, most of the public could care le
147 Post contains links huaiwei : Sorry, but no. Continental was so named because it was "Bob Six's .........desire to see the airline go not just north or south but Continental." wit
148 HNL-Jack : This is an interesting thread as it is clear that many of those posting have emotional ties to one or the other of these two airlines. I spent most of
149 B707forever : I know this is against conventional wisdom, from what I've read on here so far (didn't read them all though), but I think the new branding is good bec
150 UnitedFA07 : Change the name or not, keeping the globe, logo, and colors, doesn't make it United. Yeah it's not the "New United" it's still Continental! It's not C
151 VC10er : Yes! Yes! Yes! Hauiwei, perfectly said and strategically correct. Commercial art is not subjective, art is, but not commercail art that answers a cli
152 tpaewr : I agree with your statement, but not the import. UA brings 17 unique destinations. While CO brings 96(!) The very nature of UA's system sees it servi
153 mariner : I think most people in the world would associate that globe with "the world" - and think beyond where they are. Representations of the globe - the wo
154 Antoniemey : Maybe not many... But on the other hand, there ARE people on this planet who have never or rarely seen United's tulip. In some corners of the world s
155 Pellegrine : I was thinking about your line of work when I came across this "new" merged logo. It is hideously ugly. It would have been better just to keep UA's l
156 deltaflyertoo : well with all this talk about the logo, there was one additional imo big detail released today that had not previously been discussed or speculated on
157 Post contains links and images thebatman : At first I didn't agree with you, but then I found THIS. You are absolutely right! Wow. What a difference a few letters make. Aviation-Designs.Net:De
158 deltal1011man : I Could be wrong here but I believe IAH is alreayd larger than ORD. IIRC IAH has 700ish flights and ORD has 600ish. Both very close but IAH is larger
159 davescj : I will be very interested to see how the corporate cultures merge. Bethune did absolute wonders for CO. I hope they bring him back as a consultant (a
160 COEWR787 : At least it won;t show up on railroad freight cars and locomotives like the PanAm one has, since it is owned now by Guilford Industries which owns Bo
161 Revelation : I think the globe is a good symbol. I was taking issue with the name, which to me implied one continent. Maybe in Bob Six's day, flying across the co
162 spacecadet : That sentence can actually be interpreted two different ways, especially with the capital C (which isn't being used in the context of a name in the s
163 RJ111 : 1974 is when it was first seen. 1991 for the CO globe. So a 17 year difference.
164 FlyingSicilian : Why would anyone think IAH would fall behind DEN? It makes no sense. DEN would need to add millions to its catchment area, increase int'l business ti
165 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Geez Louise -- what a difference. Adding the word "airlines" balances the design.
166 drerx7 : lol, there is a certain poster from DEN that is adamant that IAH would be cannabolized in favor of DEN. I am interested to see what will come in the
167 TWFirst : Agreed! I was only responding to an earlier post. And why the vitriol? You and I are making the same point! It doesn't matter what an airline may hav
168 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Not even thinking about that. IAH is a brighter, more cheerful place while the ORD UA concourses (B and C) -- both painted battleship gray and blue -
169 yellowtail : AS a branding designer myself....this is dead on. The length of the titling makes it visually better.
170 Post contains links and images rikkus67 : For ease of quick visual integration, I think this was the easiest solution. Remember how Star Alliance stickers stood out on the United Grey Fuselag
171 ThePinnacleKid : You know... why not let your voices be heard besides on this website???? If you really dislike the new "colors"... just tell United directly.. let the
172 Zkpilot : of course CO did have a different looking globe before this.... the red globe on gold background with 3 curves in it.
173 Post contains links and images Revelation : According to the Wiki page for Continental Airlines: And: And: Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Airlines Pretty much settles it, no? Con
174 justloveplanes : Don't loose hope. I think the UA tulip will make it back before all is said and done. There was another thread (can't find it for the life of me) tha
175 davescj : Paint can take care of the ugly paint job. I agree, however, ref the timing. Trans con is when CLE is nice. NOTHING like the congestion or gate wait
176 Boston92 : The addition of "Airlines" isn't the reason it looks better. The titles are in a completely different font.
177 Adam T. : I guess it's possible but United already has a great relationship with AC so I don't see the real need to. CO's success in Mexico I always thought ha
178 rj777 : So, the question comes up again..... will there be a United Micronesia?
179 SESGDL : IAH is a larger hub than ORD as is, which leads to IAH being the airline's largest hub. UA is operating less than 200 mainline flights each day at OR
180 CO767FA : Why is everyone's noses bent out of shape over the livery - to us it represents a merger of "equals". It's a fact that the "old" UA livery is being r
181 ThePinnacleKid : egh, because the rest of the "story" was already speculated and known about for a long time... and there was a lot of excitement and anticipation for
182 MasseyBrown : Earlier in the thread someone posted a CO employee letter that addressed the question and the answer was they don't know yet. I believe that the Govt
183 windy95 : And you would be wrong.
184 ThePinnacleKid : always a possibility but always a possibility I would be right too... I don't know a single one of my CAL friends though that likes the colors... and
185 ikramerica : The only livery of UA's I've liked since the orange and blue is the current blue shades scheme. But I also like the classic looking CO livery. I thin
186 Post contains images PA110 : Because it is far easier for a.nutters and aspiring graphic designers to get their panties in a wad over superficial things like liveries than concen
187 newark777 : Branding and marketing isn't important?
188 Post contains images CO767FA : LOL -
189 RJ111 : There's no point talking about the important stuff in here because their are 5 dedicated threads for that. So if you don't mind, i shall be continuing
190 PlunaCRJ : What a popular livery Continental´s turned out to be... besides being used by Continental itself, we´ll now see it in the "new United"; as well as o
191 kgaiflyer : Unless I hear to the contrary, Continental; Continental Connection; Expressjet; United, and United Express already serve every major city in Canada.
192 rikkus67 : For as old as it is, I think it has weathered a lot better than some newer schemes. When United introduced the current scheme, they pretty much ruine
193 MakeMinesLAX : By all means - this is exactly the type of thought which should have gone into the decision. United's identity has long been a stylized "U", going be
194 SJC-Alien : I wonder what the Retro jet color scheme will be in a few years...................
195 Viscount724 : Canadian carriers seem to disagree. Ironically, Yellowknife (population about 19,000) and Iqaluit (only 7,000 or less) are two of the most competitiv
196 rampart : If I may enter my own panty wadding... When I first saw the new merger livery, I said to myself, "Cool! They actually took to heart the blending of ai
197 chepos : My heart goes out to anyone who will be adversely affected with this merger, I've said it before and I will say it again - this does not positively af
198 rampart : Not only to you, but your provided a convenient quote. I'm still not seeing why this is a (now moot) issue. Knowing at an early age that CO was an ai
199 Revelation : Depends on what you mean early: CO did not serve outside the US till 1978, after deregulation, 41 years after the CAL name was put into use.
200 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Yeah, I watch "Ice Road Truckers" yet I keep forgetting about the oil sands. I guess my attitudes come from living in Charlottetown with Eastern Prov
201 Flyboy1108 : To everyone who is so concerned about the paintjob of the airplanes: Well kids, whether we like it or not, it's happening. Uninental, Unicon, Continen
202 rikkus67 : ...it's nice to see, as far as branding... someone gets it. Personally, I still like the business suit lapel pin better than the mess they call a Unit
203 Antoniemey : I'll agree with that. I, personally, like the look either way, but making it longer y adding "Airlines" does seem to make it balance better, no matte
204 Pellegrine : Because the merged livery is hideously ugly. This is airliners.net and the main part of this website is photographs of airliners. Don't you think the
205 Antoniemey : In your opinion. I'm rather fond of it, myself. Odd, since it predates that "look" by 5-10 years. 1991.
206 Pellegrine : Yes obviously, but I was only trained in studio art, design, and marketing...even though it is not my primary business currently. If you are in any k
207 newark777 : But it's basically the same as the CO livery with different titles. Do you have such strong feelings about CO's livery? They seem to have done just f
208 Pellegrine : If you're going to change anyway, it's best to change for the new. As an example, I don't have a problem with LH's livery, it is iconic to them.... B
209 cws818 : Very true, but who knows....the ''tulip'' could very well re-emerge in the future. That is a valid point, but this case is rather different. UA, the
210 rampart : I'd thought it was earlier, but that is right for the mainline stuff. I would have been 14, an early airline nerd. Of course, Air Micronesia has exis
211 Post contains links decoder : Good thing they kept the name. Dave Carroll does not need to rewrite his songs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo
212 Viscount724 : UA had no international routes of any kind (except SEA-YVR and ORD-YYZ) until they were awarded the SEA-NRT and SEA-HKG routes in 1983. The rest of t
213 Post contains links seriophoto : Some of the fine print starting to come out: http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=38100 For United, the potential payouts, including the
214 United1 : Here is the CO side as well... "For Continental, Chief Marketing Officer James Compton would receive a payout worth $9.3 million, according to formul
215 Post contains images tommy767 : I don't think CO was ever aware about how dated their livery really is -- at least it's not like they ever questioned it for something more innovative
216 ikramerica : It is not cost effective to repaint a fleet of this size simply for branding purposes. CO, like AA, have an entire fleet in one, current livery. This
217 Slider : Fair point. Hundreds of posts about livery and graphic illustration. Few about integrating complex technology, res, mx systems, optimizing networks,
218 jpetekyxmd80 : That is BS. Since when did they plan on a Houston HQ....they didn't even do that in 2008, did they? Chicago was a definite possibility. You really th
219 COflyerBOS : The blaming Obama for having the headquarters in Chicago over Houston has spread like wildfire here in Southeast Texas. People honestly talk about Oba
220 jpetekyxmd80 : They really will believe anything, won't they? What a bunch of illogical crybabies. Not to mention, I believe Smisek has been an Obama supporter. Chi
221 Post contains links and images FL787 : The best idea for a new, combined brand: Courtesy of this link: http://subjectiveobject.com/2010/05/...E2%80%99s-merged-but-is-it-united/
222 United1 : You know thats not half bad...
223 commavia : Oh My God that is so lightyears better than what they actually went with!
224 ThePinnacleKid : Wow... that is actually a VERY nice "retro" blend that really feels fresh all over again... and that is how you blend two carriers and pay homage to b
225 Pellegrine : I don't buy that excuse in the least bit. All of these planes need repainting anyway eventually. They can go in at C-check time, as UA has already be
226 Antoniemey : It would also give a large number of CO employees flashbacks to Lorenzo. Not exactly something you want to do when you're already trying to integrate
227 glareskin : Or stop using United. Of course nobody would leave an airline simply because of branding. But, honestly I have to say i always felt at home with Unit
228 ikramerica : Good thing you aren't an accountant working at United+Continental trying to find ways to reduce the cost of merging, because what I wrote is true, wh
229 CALPSAFltSkeds : Exactly. However, has anyone noticed that the biggest international Star member is LH and their paint job is very similar to CO's. White with a gray
230 Pellegrine : Ok well I'm not so well versed on CO's history. So we'll do something else then. That was just one example. I'm not an accountant, I pay accountants
231 Post contains links SA7700 : This thread will locked for further contributions. Any posts added after the threadlock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only. You can follow
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