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LH YUL/IAD/MIA-MUC New For Winter 1011  
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 51
Posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10512 times:

Some nice surprises in the winter sked for LH MUC based longhaul.

5 weekly services to YUL/MIA/IAD which are new.

For YUL, this is significant as this means year-round service. LH has been flying seasonal YUL-MUC ops since 2003.

[Edited 2010-05-03 13:30:15]

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinekl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5119 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10441 times:

MIA? Thats so low yield I can not believe it. How can AMS for example not sustain MIA service, and Germany from DUS/FRA and MUC can? IAD makes sense with the UA hub, but YUL?


Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24803 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10406 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 1):
How can AMS for example not sustain MIA service, and Germany from DUS/FRA and MUC can?

Germany's population is more than 5 times as big as the Netherlands.


User currently offlineAirBuffalo From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10366 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 1):
MIA? Thats so low yield

i'm not sure that it's low yield from European centers of business. There's a lot of $$ in Miami and lots of rich people with vacation homes. It's a world of difference vs., say, MCO. Anecdotally, I've noticed that the nonstop ZRH-MIA commands some of the highest base Y fares of any of LX's N. American routes .. and fewest # of deep discounts.


User currently offlineKLM777300ER From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10368 times:

LH already flies MUC-IAD seasonally, so this means service will now be year round for IAD. The service operated year round in the past when it was first introduced, but for the past few winter seasons, LH has not operated the flight into IAD, only operating the route on its own metal for the summer season.

User currently offlinekl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5119 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 10166 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
Germany's population is more than 5 times as big as the Netherlands.

Ofcourse, I know, but MP just left MIA for AMS-MCO. I mean, there are still 18 million people left in Holland, more if you count the border regions with Germany and Belgium. Why are Dutch people flying from DUS to MIA, while for instance Germans don't come to AMS to fly from there? Just a question.

( a bit off topic.. forgive me.   )



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineHUYfan From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 1405 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9876 times:

Actually, a good number of Germans use Schiphol.

Regards

Mike


User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32602 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9643 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 1):
MIA? Thats so low yield I can not believe it. How can AMS for example not sustain MIA service, and Germany from DUS/FRA and MUC can? IAD makes sense with the UA hub, but YUL?

"So low yield," yet in winter 2010 Lufthansa will have daily service to Frankfurt, daily service to Dusseldorf, daily service to Zurich and five flights a week to Munich. All with first class cabins. Lufthansa is very strong in the Miami market.

The fact of the matter is that Miami-Europe is a very strong market. It is extremely large - the second largest U.S. market for European originating trans-Atlantic traffic - and has an very good mix of premium demand to fill the front and leisure demand to fill the back.

Lufthansa also scored a major cruise ship contract last year, from what I have heard, to feed cruises in Miami. While this kind of traffic isn't the highest yielding, it's a virtually guaranteed, risk-free profit.

Can't wait until MIA-FRA is an A380. Gate J-14 is almost ready.

[Edited 2010-05-03 17:15:36]


a.
User currently offlinePeteinmiami From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9466 times:

MIA although have great beaches is not only a tourist destination, it has a great mix of luxury tourism, low yield tourism and business travel especially from Europe and Latin American, plus is a cargo center between the Americas and the world and put all that together and you have a great market and airlines love it.

The Miami Urbanized Area (as defined by the Census Bureau) was the fifth most populous urbanized area in the U.S. in the 2000 census with a population of 4,919,036. In 2008, the population of the Miami urbanized area had increased to 5,232,342, becoming the fourth-largest urbanized area in the United States, behind New York City, Los Angeles, and Chicago.

Miami is a well-known global city due to its importance in finance, commerce, culture, media, fashion, education, film, print media, entertainment, the arts and international trade. Known as The Gateway to the Americas, Miami is an international center for entertainment, education, media, music, fashion, film, culture, print media, and the performing arts.

Because of its proximity to Latin America, Miami serves as the headquarters of Latin American operations for more than 1400 multinational corporations, including AIG, American Airlines, Cisco, Disney, Exxon, FedEx, Kraft Foods, Microsoft, Oracle, SBC Communications, Sony, Visa International, and Wal-Mart.

The city is also home to the largest concentration of international banks in the United States, as well as home to many international company headquarters, and television studios.

The city's Port of Miami is the number one cruise/passenger port in the world and is known for accommodating the largest volume of cruise ships in the world, and is home to many major cruise line headquarters. Carnival Corp, Royal Caribbean, Norwegian Cruise Lines all have their headquarters in the Miami area


User currently offlinethegivenone From Austria, joined Jan 2008, 192 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8943 times:

BOS is also going year-round with a 5x weekly service in the winter timetable with an A333.

In previous years, MUC-BOS was served by Privatair in the Winter and an LH widebody in the summer.


User currently offlineCyba From Cape Verde, joined Nov 2005, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8881 times:

Last year I was looking for a business class seat on LH to MIA. Admittedly this was before christmas but still, booking 3-4 months before, I couldn't get on the ZRH or the FRA flight and had to route through DUS. Flight was packed in all cabins. I don't think there were any op-ups either. MIA services are strong

User currently offlinetim171080 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8378 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 7):
Can't wait until MIA-FRA is an A380. Gate J-14 is almost ready.

Which route (DUS or MUC or even ZRH) do you think will be discontinued in exchange for the FRA route to get A380 service? Or will we even see A380 plus DUS A330 plus MUC A330 plus LX A330?

Why do they upgrade J-14 instead of J-17 (which so far is the FRA Gate)? J-14 seems to be a rather narrow stand between J-12 and J-16, whereas J-17 at the end of the pier seems to offer the needed 80m*80m square.
http://www.miami-airport.com/terminal_gates.asp
Also I could not see any construction in J, I've been checking every month I fly to Germany, but maybe I was concentrating on J-17 too much.

Another question about Concourse J, rather off topic: Will the new United use Concourse H (old CO) or J (old UA)?


User currently offlineJcf5002 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7033 times:

C'mon LH A380 to IAD!!! Gimmie the WhaleJet!


Its always a sunny day above the clouds || CSEL, CMEL, CFI, CFII, MEI
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32602 posts, RR: 72
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6743 times:

Quoting tim171080 (Reply 11):
Which route (DUS or MUC or even ZRH) do you think will be discontinued in exchange for the FRA route to get A380 service? Or will we even see A380 plus DUS A330 plus MUC A330 plus LX A330?

None. There is no reason to discontinue anything. MIA can absorb the extra capacity; also LX is an A340 to MIA

Also, my error, it is gate J-17 that is being converted.

[Edited 2010-05-04 07:07:20]


a.
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8195 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6735 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
Germany's population is more than 5 times as big as the Netherlands.

Plus MIA is a pretty big business market which is why FRA-MIA will be operated with A380 with nearly 100 business class seats, and unlike KLM, LH has a huge feed to/from Italy, especially thru MUC. On top of that Florida is a huge tourist destination for Germans, unlike the Dutch who tend to go to the Caribean (you'll never see LH operating 744's to SXM).


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11411 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6674 times:

Quoting Peteinmiami (Reply 8):
MIA although have great beaches is not only a tourist destination, it has a great mix of luxury tourism, low yield tourism and business travel especially from Europe and Latin American, plus is a cargo center between the Americas and the world and put all that together and you have a great market and airlines love it.

  

Miami is way more than just a low-yielding beach destination. Miami is an economic, political and cultural hub of an entire region, and it is one of the key centers of Latin American finance, commerce/trade, high-end tourism, etc.

Quoting Peteinmiami (Reply 8):
The Miami Urbanized Area (as defined by the Census Bureau) was the fifth most populous urbanized area in the U.S. in the 2000 census with a population of 4,919,036. In 2008, the population of the Miami urbanized area had increased to 5,232,342, becoming the fourth-largest urbanized area in the United States, behind New York City, Los Angeles, and Chicago.

One slight correction: the Miami area - including Lauderdale and West Palm - is not the fourth largest urban area in the U.S. At least not to my knowledge. It's seventh or eighth.

Between New York, L.A. and Chicago, and Miami, you've got Dallas/Fort Worth, the San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose Bay Area, Philadelphia, and Houston, in that order.

[Edited 2010-05-04 07:25:46]

User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6628 times:

education ?? name even 1 Top 50 school located in Miami metro
media? marginally... having a single show of CSI:Miami doesn't count as a "center"
finance? i didn't know any of the Top 10 (or even Top 20) are HQ'ed in Miami

that list sounds a lot more NY/LA than Miami.

Quoting Peteinmiami (Reply 8):
Miami is a well-known global city due to its importance in finance, commerce, culture, media, fashion, education, film, print media, entertainment, the arts and international trade.


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2176 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6598 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 1):
IAD makes sense with the UA hub, but YUL?

Well, YUL is a Star Alliance hub as well. Maybe not a major one, but it provides connections to small cities through Quebec and the Maritimes, which may or may not be served from YYZ. But in any case it is longer to travel from YYZ to the East coast of Canada than from YUL. Also, multiple frequencies are offered to Canadian major cities, thus it is a convenient alternative to crowded YYZ. And flying to YUL is quite shorter compared to other Eastern cities included IAD and YYZ, so it just makes sense to connect there.
Plus, for people in Montreal, MUC is a Star Alliance hub which also offers an alternative to busy FRA.

I'm just surprised this flight becomes year-round only now. Let's keep in mind AC flies to FRA and GVA from YUL, and LX to ZRH. There is a big Star Alliance presence between YUL and the LH-land. They have stay strong against the dominant presence of AF-KL, which offers up to 5 daily flights through the summer and 3 through the winter.



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6596 times:

Quoting Peteinmiami (Reply 8):
The Miami Urbanized Area (as defined by the Census Bureau) was the fifth most populous urbanized area in the U.S. in the 2000 census with a population of 4,919,036. In 2008, the population of the Miami urbanized area had increased to 5,232,342, becoming the fourth-largest urbanized area in the United States, behind New York City, Los Angeles, and Chicago.

To stray off topic a moment, the Miami MSA Metro (a larger number) area is actually 7th using 2009 census data behind Dallas/Ft Worth, Philly and Houston. But the overall point remains Miami is a huge market.

And there are plenty of Germans that use AMS, after living a couple of years in the dreilandpunt area near Aachen and Maastricht and Liege most people would use BRU, AMS, or DUS (even CGN) for longhaul, depending on the best price (as now, the borders do not hinder movement).

MIA traffic was one of the few airports that handled the recession fairly well (IAH biz traffic did well also, and IIRC NYC), so it is no surprise to see it grow stronger now.



Ciao Windjet mi manchi
User currently offlineYYZRWY23 From Canada, joined Aug 2009, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6560 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 1):
IAD makes sense with the UA hub, but YUL?

YUL is an AC hub, but they have sufficient services to YYZ. I guess the market is there for year round service, because for the sake of connections, routing paxs via YYZ should work. Considering YYZ has service from FRA, MUC, and DUS.

YYZRWY23



If you don't stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32602 posts, RR: 72
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6326 times:

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 18):

To stray off topic a moment, the Miami MSA Metro (a larger number) area is actually 7th using 2009 census data behind Dallas/Ft Worth, Philly and Houston. But the overall point remains Miami is a huge market.

Yes, Miami is the 7th largest metro, but what he said is true. Using urbanized area - which is the global standard for measuring the size of a city and is used by the United Nations - Miami is the fourth largest urbanized area in the U.S. and 46th largest in the world.

Metropolitan area is a localized ranking - all countries have their own unique ways of measuring what makes a "metropolitan area." Urban agglomeration is an international ranking system, and while the formula is still far from perfect, it is the best way to globally compare how "big" a city in one country is to one in another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...urban_agglomerations_by_population

[Edited 2010-05-04 08:09:30]


a.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11411 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6275 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 20):
Metropolitan area is a localized ranking - all countries have their own unique ways of measuring what makes a "metropolitan area." Urban agglomeration is an international ranking system, and while the formula is still far from perfect, it is the best way to globally compare how "big" a city in one country is to one in another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ation

Okay, but using those numbers is obviously a flawed metric, since the numbers are clearly wrong. That list shows the DFW "urban agglomeration" at only 4.9 million. Yet, today, we know that the DFW metro area - which is apparently less encompassing than the "urban agglomeration" - is pushing 6.5 million.

I'd rather use the Census' Combined Statistcal Areas which, if adjusted to combined San Francisco-Oakland with San Jose, puts Miami at #8 in the U.S. I, personally, think that is a more accurate metric of how big a market's population base actually is.


User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32602 posts, RR: 72
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6246 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
Okay, but using those numbers is obviously a flawed metric, since the numbers are clearly wrong. That list shows the DFW "urban agglomeration" at only 4.9 million. Yet, today, we know that the DFW metro area - which is apparently less encompassing than the "urban agglomeration" - is pushing 6.5 million.

No, it is not a flawed metric because it measures based on urban area. An urban area is usually smaller in land size than a metro area. A metropolitan area is usually based on communiting patterns intra the area; an urban area is based on continual pockets of population density. Two entirely different ways of measuring things.

The Dallas urban area is only 3,600 square km. The Dallas metroplex is more than 24,000 square kilometres.

To an airline, a metro area is probably more important to get market size. For one getting how "big" a city feels and acts, urban area is probably going to give you the better estimate.

[Edited 2010-05-04 08:19:56]


a.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11411 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6150 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 22):
The Dallas urban area is only 3,600 square km. The Dallas metroplex is more than 24,000 square kilometres.

To an airline, a metro area is probably more important to get market size. For one getting how "big" a city feels and acts, urban area is probably going to give you the better estimate.

Okay, but therein lies my point: if urban area gives us a better sense of how big a city "feels" and "acts," then I can't possibly imagine how - in regard to the D/FW Metroplex - the smaller number is the better one. The D/FW Metroplex definitely "feels" and "acts" huge.

Put another way: I've spent a lot of time in every one of these metro areas we're talking about, and I cannot imagine for the life of me how any metric could possibly conclude that Miami/Lauderdale/West Palm "feels" or "acts" any bigger than, say, D/FW, Houston or the Bay Area.

All of those "urban agglomerations" have significantly more people, and "feel" and "act" just as big if not bigger than South Florida in my experience.


User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32602 posts, RR: 72
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6099 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 23):

Okay, but therein lies my point: if urban area gives us a better sense of how big a city "feels" and "acts," then I can't possibly imagine how - in regard to the D/FW Metroplex - the smaller number is the better one. The D/FW Metroplex definitely "feels" and "acts" huge.

We'll just agree to disagree.

Miami feels and acts like a city. Dallas feels like a giant suburb indifferent from Phoenix, Las Vegas, Orlando or any other suburban town. Just bigger.



a.
25 FlyPNS1 : But what does that have to do with how many people fly MUC-MIA? Using urban agglomeration is a pointless metric when discussing air service.
26 B752OS : C'mon LH A380 to IAD!!! Gimmie the WhaleJet! None. I believe for media you can refer to Latin media, where Miami is large. Miami is not a major world
27 Peteinmiami : I was not trying to argue the NYC, Boston or Chicago are bigger or smaller in importance as a market, I just was answering to kl911 post , see below
28 Post contains images airbazar : Frankly, what I don't understand is why anyone would want to vacation in Miami, but I digress
29 B752OS : Wait....there is more to Miami than just beaches??? kidding. I was not saying that you, or anyone else on these boards were saying Miami was a larger
30 Post contains images flymia : CSI Miami is not even flimed in Miami, Miami is a latin america media centre. Plenty of finance in the area 2nd largest concentration of internationa
31 thenoflyzone : Great news for YUL !! The international airline line-up at Montreal has always been very impressive, considering the airport only caters to a little o
32 mah4546 : It doesn't. I was just pointing out something that somebody was asking about. Miami-Munich is a large local market in itself - 219 daily passengers.
33 FLYYUL : MIA is an important market in terms of volume. Airlines typically make money either through a premium configuration or a volume based one. In the case
34 mah4546 : MIA is by all means volume market, but Air France is the only airline that doesn't send its most premium product to Miami. British Airways uses 4-cla
35 Peteinmiami : Well it is a matter of preference, not everyone has to like Miami, but there are millions of people that enjoy it and they keep coming year after yea
36 mogandoCI : very flawed metric when used against US cities. they count SanFran-Oakland and SanJose as 2 different cities, every though most people will clearly ag
37 flymia : All the Major European Airlines except for AF send their premium 3 or 4 class aircraft to MIA so LU should not have a problem sending a 56 premium se
38 GlobalCabotage : If CO/UA is approved, IAH-MUC will probably happen (on LH or UA/CO).
39 ewrkid : Indeed, I'm really glad to see YUL getting more international service and let them put those beautiful new facilities to work!! I 100% agree with you
40 Caribb : and Arabic & Latino... Nice to see YUL getting year round LH again after many years.. MUC is nicely placed as a Euro hub and it should do well wi
41 ewrkid : and for AF to finally decide to put capactiy over frequency and send the friggen A380!! ugh
42 thenoflyzone : It will happen. Patience is a virtue ! Thenoflyzone
43 sflaflight : Why would anybody ever want capacity over frequency in non slot controlled markets? If you really want to fly an A380 just connect. I'd rather have m
44 thenoflyzone : Thenoflyzone Correct. The time will come, however, when AF will have to make a decision : Add a 5th daily flight to YUL, or send an A380 and keep the
45 Caribb : I agree. As much as I'd love to see an A380 here I would also take multiple flights over it. It's better for developing opportunities at the airport.
46 Viscount724 : LX uses the A340-300 ZRH-MIA. Their most premium product is now the A330-300. The A340 doesn't have the new F and J products. I think there are longe
47 ZRH : For a passenger frequency is usually better but for airlines capacity is more economic. To fly one 380 instead of two 777/340/330 generates much less
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