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Airlines From Holland And Cannabis Use?  
User currently offlinenitepilot79 From Turkey, joined May 2008, 265 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9165 times:

I'm not trying to ask an ignorant question, nor am I intending any offense by asking this question: since cannabis-containing products are basically legal in the Netherlands, is drug testing for airline employees any less stringent when it comes to THC. Can pilots fly with it in their system? Or could they legally fly despite any potential company policy stating otherwise? Can private pilots fly with it in their system legally? Not trying to condone the concept, just curious.


En Buyuk Turkiye, Baska Buyuk Yok!
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePacNWjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 957 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9030 times:

Quoting nitepilot79 (Thread starter):
since cannabis-containing products are basically legal in the Netherlands

Just to clarify, according to the chief of the Amsterdam police who was interviewed on a BBC television program on marijuana, cannabis is still technically illegal in the Netherlands. From what I gathered from the interview, the arrangement that exists is that Dutch law enforcements agencies have decided to tolerate cannabis use at recognized "coffee shops," although under the law any sale of cannabis is illegal. Anyway, that is how it was presented on the BBC program.


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8941 times:

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 1):
Just to clarify, according to the chief of the Amsterdam police who was interviewed on a BBC television program on marijuana, cannabis is still technically illegal in the Netherlands. From what I gathered from the interview, the arrangement that exists is that Dutch law enforcements agencies have decided to tolerate cannabis use at recognized "coffee shops," although under the law any sale of cannabis is illegal. Anyway, that is how it was presented on the BBC program.

Correct, it's called "gedogen", basically allowing something that is technically illegal. The use is basically allowed, the sale is only allowed in the coffee shops (always interesting to explain this to tourists), but growing it is illegal. Formally, the coffee shop is only allowed to have very small quantities in house. There have been some voices for a while saying, either make it completely legal, or completely illegal. Because right now it's a bit schizophrenic.

Quoting nitepilot79 (Thread starter):
Can pilots fly with it in their system?

No, you are also not allowed to drive a car while under the influence of cannabis. It's basically treated like flying/driving under the influence of alcohol.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlinesevernaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1394 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8913 times:

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 1):
although under the law any sale of cannabis is illegal.

Only up to 5 grams per transaction. So coffee-shops purchase actually illegal (as they buy much larger quantities).

I think there's no major difference with alcohol. Pilots also may not fly intoxicated. On a side-note, Holland isn't the only country with these rather liberal laws (Czech Republic and Spain come into my mind) whereas many other countries have decriminalized the use of cannabis.



Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
User currently offlinedoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3400 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8389 times:

Quoting severnaya (Reply 3):
I think there's no major difference with alcohol. Pilots also may not fly intoxicated.

Won't THC show up in the urine of a regular user days or weeks after the last useage, though?



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offlinenitepilot79 From Turkey, joined May 2008, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8263 times:

Won't THC show up in the urine of a regular user days or weeks after the last useage, though?[/quote]

That is what I was wondering mostly, because you don't have to be under the influence to have it in your system. In the US and elsewhere a drug test may come up positive for marijuana, but the tested individual could be stone cold sober. Because marijuana use is legally tolerated, (in the Netherlands), could one test positive and still have a private pilot license. As opposed to the US and other places where if you test positive, do not pass go, do not collect 200$, your license is revoked. It seems there is a bit of a grey area, since you can have the substance in your blood, but not be under the influence, as opposed to alcohol.



En Buyuk Turkiye, Baska Buyuk Yok!
User currently offlineairbuster From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7021 times:

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 4):
Won't THC show up in the urine of a regular user days or weeks after the last useage, though?

I have been told it shows up in blood tests till 6 months after one has used it. Our (dutch) company rules state that drugs in any kind of form shall never be taken. Not in your vacation leave, normal leave or whenever. So I wouldn't risk it. considering we have to do a medical each year and you can get urine tested by the aviation police though highly unlikely, but hey, why risk it?

rgds

AB



FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1127 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6454 times:

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 4):
Won't THC show up in the urine of a regular user days or weeks after the last useage, though?

THC can test positive in a urine test from 3-7 days after use. Around six or more days though, it is very difficult to get a definitive "positive" result, because the line that would appear to indicate a positive result ends up very faint, if at all. The process can also be sped up by drinking a large amount of fluids -- it can decrease the time to two days. There are products out there which claim to rid the toxins from your body, but it more or less flushes your system just like water will. Other things like cocaine or opiates can remain present in urine for one to two weeks.

It all depends on the test though. Urine samples are only effective and definitive if taken within a week of use. Blood samples can be good for upwards of 4-6 months, depending on the drug. Hair samples could be used for up to one year. Fat cells can contain THC or other toxins almost indefinitely...so if you have used marijuana at one point or another in your life, there is a test that could probably detect this. A urine sample is the only "cheap" and virtually instant means of producing a positive result.

I was an intern with Adult Parole and Probations for school a few years ago. I asked for something at the airport and somehow got that! Good learning experience. Not so much fun testing 500 piss samples in an afternoon though.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlinesurfandsnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2844 posts, RR: 30
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6245 times:

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 4):
Won't THC show up in the urine of a regular user days or weeks after the last useage, though?

It all depends on how regular a user is. While a heavy smoker "stoner" would test positive weeks after last using it, such an individual is highly unlikely to hold a very demanding corporate/civil position. On the other hand, a very light (occasional) user could smoke and pass a urine test the next day after having drank enough water because they have so little in their system.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1127 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6155 times:

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 8):
It all depends on how regular a user is. While a heavy smoker "stoner" would test positive weeks after last using it, such an individual is highly unlikely to hold a very demanding corporate/civil position. On the other hand, a very light (occasional) user could smoke and pass a urine test the next day after having drank enough water because they have so little in their system.

It doesn't matter how often the individual uses the substances, whether it be marijuana, cocaine, opiates, etc. -- it doesn't affect the length of time it remains in the system. Unless the individual took one hit and drank two gallons of water, he might pass the next day, but generally speaking, marijuana will be a definitive positive for 3-4 days after use (regardless if the person is a stoner or light smoker).

There is no drug, no matter the frequency of use, that will remain in the system and testable with urine to find a positive for multiple weeks after end of use. Cocaine and opiates do last in the system for longer than THC, but generally only make it past one week...two if you're lucky.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlineamericawest From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 17 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5517 times:

http://www.drugabuse.gov/marijbroch/Marijteenstxt.html#long

Not that the US government knows much about marijuana, but...



AmericaWest
User currently offlineilovepabst From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3908 times:

So what if I had a legitimate "medical marijuana" prescription in the US? Would my medical need for marijuana trump US DOT drug testing? I'm not talking about toking up on the way to work and being "under the influence" at my job. I'm saying what if I truly used it for medicinal purposes but probably would not pass a urine test at any given time?

User currently onlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4114 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3506 times:

Drug use whether it is prescribed or used however can impair a person. I would think that any drug use by pilots is strictly regulated and they along with other operators of a public conveyances that transport passengers should be strictly limited to drugs that won't affect ones ability to operate the machine, airplane, bus, truck or car. I don't see a problem with drug testing when it comes to public safety.


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineilovepabst From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3395 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 12):
I would think that any drug use by pilots is strictly regulated

There are many drugs that could be prescribed to me (hydrocodone, codeine, percocet, etc.) that would impair me short term but probably show on a drug test over a longer term. Again, I'm not talking about being "under the influence" of these while working just pondering whether medical marijuana would be allowed in this category?


User currently offlinePacNWjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 957 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3291 times:

Quoting ilovepabst (Reply 11):
So what if I had a legitimate "medical marijuana" prescription in the US? Would my medical need for marijuana trump US DOT drug testing?

Agencies of the federal government of the United States don't give a damn about state laws that make it legal for individuals to obtain prescriptions to use marijuana for medicinal purposes. As far as the federal government of the United States is concerned, marijuana is a scheduled substance, possession, sale, or use thereof is illegal under the U.S. legal code.


User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3273 times:

Dutch friends of mine recently told me that there is a real movement in Amsterdam to outlaw drugs completely, as they are getting sick and tired of the city's reputation and the kind of visitors it is attracting, vis-a-vis the kind who only so there to get stoned out of their brains and make a nuisance of themselves.


To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlineilovepabst From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3192 times:

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 14):
Agencies of the federal government of the United States don't give a damn about state laws that make it legal for individuals to obtain prescriptions to use marijuana for medicinal purposes. As far as the federal government of the United States is concerned, marijuana is a scheduled substance, possession, sale, or use thereof is illegal under the U.S. legal code.

Once I thought about it that answer occurred to me. So what about religious or ceremonial use of peyote? What if I am a Native American pilot that from time to time might use peyote as part of my native traditions? Peyote is federally allowed for cultivation, possession and use by Native Americans. Would that be excepted by DOT drug testing?


User currently offlinePacNWjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 957 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3154 times:

Quoting ilovepabst (Reply 16):
Peyote is federally allowed for cultivation, possession and use by Native Americans.

While peyote use is allowed under federal law for religious use, both mescaline and peyote are Schedule I substances which means that they are subject to special licensing restrictions. Federal agencies such as the DOT would be permitted to restrict licensed pilots from using peyote and not be in violation of federal law which allows such agencies to impose restrictions on the use of Schedule I substances.


User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3123 times:

Quoting ilovepabst (Reply 11):
So what if I had a legitimate "medical marijuana" prescription in the US

There is no federal law allowing the use of medical marijuana; there are only state laws. Federal law trumps state law so if your job requires adherence to federal policy that would not allow the use of marijuana even for medicinal purposes.


User currently offlinesasd209 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Oct 2007, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2964 times:

Quoting offloaded (Reply 15):
they are getting sick and tired of the city's reputation and the kind of visitors it is attracting, vis-a-vis the kind who only so there to get stoned out of their brains and make a nuisance of themselves.

Can't say I hardly blame them  


User currently offlinenitepilot79 From Turkey, joined May 2008, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2727 times:

Quoting sasd209 (Reply 19):
they are getting sick and tired of the city's reputation and the kind of visitors it is attracting, vis-a-vis the kind who only so there to get stoned out of their brains and make a nuisance of themselves.

What about alcohol users? Alcohol is tolerated and accepted almost anywhere in the world, but let me tell you; I'd rather be around a bar full of pot users than a bar full of people that are alcohol users.



En Buyuk Turkiye, Baska Buyuk Yok!
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6440 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2571 times:

Quoting ilovepabst (Reply 11):
So what if I had a legitimate "medical marijuana" prescription in the US? Would my medical need for marijuana trump US DOT drug testing?

I doubt you would get a job as a pilot if you needed "medical marijuana".


User currently offlinesurfandsnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2844 posts, RR: 30
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2492 times:

Quoting offloaded (Reply 15):
Dutch friends of mine recently told me that there is a real movement in Amsterdam to outlaw drugs completely, as they are getting sick and tired of the city's reputation and the kind of visitors it is attracting, vis-a-vis the kind who only so there to get stoned out of their brains and make a nuisance of themselves.

All cities that have liberal attitudes towards drugs - Amsterdam, Zurich, Vancouver, Los Angeles, etc. - have seen a public backlash against the policies because of all the problems that arise with the people that come in and everything. Here in L.A., the city has clamped down on all of the unregulated pot dispensaries, which are like coffeeshops except you need to have a bogus prescription to get in.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlinesasd209 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Oct 2007, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2470 times:

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 20):
What about alcohol users? Alcohol is tolerated and accepted almost anywhere in the world, but let me tell you; I'd rather be around a bar full of pot users than a bar full of people that are alcohol users.

Obviously you are entitled to your opinion as am I.  


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19370 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2390 times:

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 4):
Won't THC show up in the urine of a regular user days or weeks after the last useage, though?

I can answer this question: THC is stored in fatty tissues. There is an initially short half-life followed by a much longer terminal half-life.

The ultimate length of detection (in urine assay) depends on the individual. The average daily smoker will become undetectable at 14-21 days of abstinence, although certain cases of 30+ days have been recorded. A single isolated use will become undetectable at 3-7 days.

The idea that it can be detected in urine for months is a myth.


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