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DL Granted Approval DTW-Sao Paulo; Now For Sale  
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1715 posts, RR: 12
Posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 15541 times:
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The DOT has given Delta approval to launch it's twice weekly Detroit - Sao Paulo nonstops beginning in October. Tickets are for sale now...

Let's have a little fun at Delta's expense...how many times do you think Delta will change the schedule (days, times, etc...) and will Delta drop the route before it even begins. If this route does see the light of day, how long until it's pulled?

Of course none of this may be the case. But Delta is hilarious with its scheduling sometimes...

124 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline727lover From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6422 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 15490 times:

Did DL apply for this or was it left over from NW? If its the former, very interesting. Figured they'd route everything through ATL or JFK. What equipment is being used?




Edit:

Well I just saw the other thread, so never mind, I got my answers.

[Edited 2010-05-04 09:19:53]


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4659 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 15420 times:

I never understood why so much aircraft downtime is wasted in South America

205
Detroit at 5:45 p.m.
Sao Paulo at 6:15 a.m. (next day)
Thursday, Sunday

204*
Sao Paulo at 10:15 p.m.
Detroit at 7:20 a.m. (next day)
Monday, Friday


Why can't the return be something like 8:45am- 5:50pm rather than have an aircraft sit for 16 hrs?



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22877 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 15414 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 2):
Why can't the return be something like 8:45am- 5:50pm rather than have an aircraft sit for 16 hrs?

Yields on daytime flights are not good.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4659 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 15313 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
Yields on daytime flights are not good.

So bad that its worth needing almost an entire additional aircraft? Its not like theres plenty of other oprtions between the two cities.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3203 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 15283 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 2):
Why can't the return be something like 8:45am- 5:50pm rather than have an aircraft sit for 16 hrs?

Especially for the case of DTW-GRU, the southbound departure is timed to connect with all the inbound flights from the Orient: NRT, NGO, PVG, HKG, ICN

Conversely, the northbound departure is timed to arrive into DTW to allow connections onto all the flights to Asia. If you used the schedule you proposed, a ~600pm arrival, you arrive quite a few hours after all the flights to Asia have already left.



A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
User currently offlineCODCAIAH From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 15077 times:

Did DL apply for this or was it

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 2):
Why can't the return be something like 8:45am- 5:50pm rather than have an aircraft sit for 16 hrs?

The only thing you can be 100% certain of in threads about South America flights is that someone will always ask why planes sit on the ground so long at places like EZE, GRU, and GIG. And the answer is always the same: because passengers, especially business travelers, would rather take an overnight flight than waste an entire workday or vacation day.



CO/IAH-loyalist happily driven into the arms of WN/HOU
User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4009 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 15008 times:

Congratulations to Delta! This is the best move they made in their Brazil network since they added Rio.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 2):
I never understood why so much aircraft downtime is wasted in South America

Look at the schedules between Europe and South Africa and give it some thought.


User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4659 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 14701 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 7):
Look at the schedules between Europe and South Africa and give it some thought.

The european schedules don't require 16 hrs of downtime, i think the most extreme cases are usually half of that. ATL-JNB only spends 3 hr 15 min in JNB.

Between all of the network carriers who do this, it probably adds up to the equivelent of over a dozen wasted aircraft.

Im sure many people would prefer a late european departure rather than leave at 9/10 am but they dont have the choice, so they suck it up an pay (london being the primary exception).



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22877 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 14622 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 8):
The european schedules don't require 16 hrs of downtime

SA spends 16 hours on the ground in FRA, 13 hours on the ground in LHR, and 17 hours on the ground in MUC.

Also, it's not uncommon in other parts of the world to have extended turns so the arrival time is more conducive to connections. For instance, one of the CO flights spends over 7 hours on the ground in TLV.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5240 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 14586 times:

Here is the official PR:

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1015



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4009 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 14484 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 8):
The european schedules don't require 16 hrs of downtime, i think the most extreme cases are usually half of that. ATL-JNB only spends 3 hr 15 min in JNB.

ATL is not in Europe.

Most US-SaoPaulo comes in at about 9-10am, so usually the ground time is about 12-13 hours.

DL wants to make is feasible for people to connect at DTW inbound from Asia, so they went for the easliest departure time they could. Therefore their ground time will be longer than almost all of the others.


User currently offlineworldtraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 14288 times:

Whether it is 16 hrs or 8 doesn't really change the realitiy that you either are committing 2 aircraft for a route (if operated daily). You can fly to S. America and back in 24 hrs w/ a turn but that isn't the way the best revenue is obtained....it happens that the schedules work well connecting to Asia (and DL is maximizing that) but they wouldn't do it if that wasn't how the best revenue was obtained.

Alot of intercity bus transportation within Brazil has peak demand at night (if the schedules allow it) so it isn't just air travel to/from S. America and it isn't just business people who are accustomed to traveling at night....

Note also that DL says this is the FIRST service between Detroit and South America. I'm quite certain there will be more.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22877 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 14236 times:

Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 12):
Note also that DL says this is the FIRST service between Detroit and South America. I'm quite certain there will be more.

What other South America routes can work from DTW? I can't see much beyond maybe EZE.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1634 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 14174 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):

What other South America routes can work from DTW? I can't see much beyond maybe EZE.

I would tend to agree. Delta has selected DTW as its primary Asian hub due to its location relative to Asia and major east coast population centers, reducing its portfolio of ATL-Asia service in favor of that arrangement. By the same logic, I imagine DL will continue to focus largely on ATL for service to South America and likely only connect DTW to key destinations. It's arguable that only GRU would git the bill for that, though EZE could be a possibility as well.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25131 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 14173 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 2):
Why can't the return be something like 8:45am- 5:50pm rather than have an aircraft sit for 16 hrs?
Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 4):
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
Yields on daytime flights are not good.

So bad that its worth needing almost an entire additional aircraft? Its not like theres plenty of other oprtions between the two cities.

Yes, also very common on other longhaul north-south routes, including Europe-Africa. Business travellers paying the highest fares don't want to waste a day on a daytime flight if they can fly overnight. Also have to consider connections at both ends. By arriving early in the morning you have the widest variety of connections.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 8):
Quoting incitatus (Reply 7):
Look at the schedules between Europe and South Africa and give it some thought.

The european schedules don't require 16 hrs of downtime, i think the most extreme cases are usually half of that. ATL-JNB only spends 3 hr 15 min in JNB.

You can't compare transatlantic routes. Time zone differences on those routes affect schedules, and ATL-JNB is about 3000 miles further than DTW-GRU.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22877 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 14083 times:

Quoting steex (Reply 14):
though EZE could be a possibility as well.

The midwest to EZE is an interesting route. UA flew the route for a while in the early part of the last decade and dropped it because of a need to return 763s in bankruptcy. The rumour at the time was that they were satisfied with the route but it was a convenient target because of the poor utilization and the ability to pull 2 frames from the network whilst only losing one route (and not losing any destinations since IAD-EZE continued). I would argue, though, that with the CO merger, UA has a better aircraft than anything in its pre-merger fleet for ORD-EZE: the 762. I don't know whether that'll be enough for them to try the route again, especially since CO serves EZE from IAH (sort of similar to the AA situation - see below).

AA flew the route for a while more recently (2006-2008 or so) and it flopped. Part of the problem was likely that AA had three other gateways to Argentina, and Delta only has one. ORD competed with DFW in particular for many of the same connections. AA also, FWIW, operated with a similar aircraft configuration to what DL would.

The bottom line, I think, is that DTW-EZE might be worth a shot, but it is by no means a guaranteed success.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMSY772LR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 14035 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 4):
Its not like theres plenty of other oprtions between the two cities.

...you mean other than via MIA, ATL, IAD, JFK, EWR, ORD, DFW, IAH, etc?


User currently onlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5240 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 13800 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):
What other South America routes can work from DTW? I can't see much beyond maybe EZE.

Perhaps LIM? Regardless, I interpret DL's wording to mean that they will offer DTWs first scheduled flight to South America, not that this is the first of more South American destinations to come.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7538 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 13736 times:

Apparently the long term plan is to make it 5x weekly, then daily at some point.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22877 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 13708 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 18):
Perhaps LIM?

Perhaps. The advantage of LIM is that, at 3200 nm and change, it is comfortably within the range of the 757.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinechepos From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2000, 6214 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 13586 times:

DTW - LIM, why? to connect to Japan. In my opinion that does not really make sense. We would see AA try ORD - LIM before DL tries that.
I doubt that route will ever happen, for now I think we will see DTW-GRU, if the route proves succeful maybe in a distant future EZE might happen. But remember GRU is a much larger market than EZE, GRU has strongr ties to Asia than EZE.

Regards,

Chepos



Fly the Flag!!!!
User currently offlineb4real From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2637 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 12407 times:

I would really like to see what DL could do in Detroit if the Michigan and Detroit economy were restored.

Could you imagine the hub possibilities?



B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1617 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 10382 times:

People forget that Brazil has a HUGE community of Japanese-born and Brazilians of Japanese descent. It makes for perfect connections between these two population centers and are timed accordingly. Suposedly Brazil holds the largest community of people of Japanese descent outside of Japan itself. This route is a virtual straight line from Japan to Brazil.


Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7556 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 10184 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 18):
Perhaps LIM? Regardless, I interpret DL's wording to mean that they will offer DTWs first scheduled flight to South America, not that this is the first of more South American destinations to come.

The only major market to LIM is Japan and there are plenty of options between LIM and NRT.

If AA couldnt make DFW-LIM, I highly doubt DTW-LIM is in the cards.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
25 abrelosojos : = This is all fine and dandy ... but a 2x is never good for connections for the yield premium that DL might gather from an over-night flight. If they
26 davescj : I would also suspect long range might also include LAX-Sao Paolo. They keep telling us that LAX is going to be built up. This might make sense. I agr
27 Cubsrule : GIG might be possible. There is no way SCL will work. The market simply isn't large enough.
28 LAXdude1023 : Its funny how when one city is added, people seem to start dreaming. This is DTW's first flight to South America, but this will probably be the only S
29 worldtraveler : No one said that DTW-GRU would exist solely on Asian connections to begin with. DL will build up DTW-GRU frequencies but there is a very high likeliho
30 Transpac787 : Which is exactly why DL has already said they will be wanting to increase the frequency...
31 LAXdude1023 : But really, what other route could DL justify from DTW that either: 1) Needs the connections to Asia that DTW provides and ATL doesnt. 2) Has a large
32 LipeGIG : You forget to acknowledge that these flights allow airlines to have the plane early morning on their hubs in the United States and able to be used fo
33 Post contains images abrelosojos : = Then, what is DTW exactly existing for? As you say yourself below: = So no local market, and not really for Asian connections ... then what increme
34 Transpac787 : Ah I see. So the likelihood of a route succeeding is inversely proportionate to the distance of the flight.... ?? From what gypsy did you buy your cr
35 LipeGIG : Agreed, plus the fact that mostly of Brazilians goes to East Coast, VFR component is limited, and people from Detroit area when going to Brazil, i'm
36 OA412 : Do bear in mind, however, that for those coming from the West Coast, DTW is a more direct option than connecting in JFK. Not by much, but it is. As n
37 abrelosojos : = No. If you read the thread instead of focusing on putting down people who post, you will realize that longer flights in general are costlier to run
38 abrelosojos : = Who are these "numerous" people outside the regular DL-fans on A.Net? Saludos, A.
39 MSPNWA : I'm off the opinion that I will need to see this flight just hit the skies before I talk about South American expansion. I giving GRU a 50-50 chance t
40 LipeGIG : GM and Ford have offices in Sao Paulo, yes. But which airline they use to fly up to now and thru which gateway ? Plus, GM, Ford and a few suppliers w
41 realsim : I'm a little confused: where do these frequencies come from? Are them the ones used for LAX-GRU and now have switched to DTW?
42 incitatus : Felipe - You made some excellent points. Your comparison with DTW-GRU and DTW-EZE is very appropriate. Even though DTW-EZE would face less competitio
43 Cubsrule : I think so, but I don't know that it'll change DL's market share on DTW-GRU (which is probably already pretty high) that much, and if we are talking
44 airbazar : Funny you mention this. BOS-GRU would have far greater potential than DTW-GRU. For starters, Boston's economy is stronger and more deversified than D
45 Cubsrule : How many connecting passengers would Delta (or any carrier) get at BOS?
46 MAH4546 : But DTW-GRU has a high local fare and BOS-GRU fares are in the toilet. There is no business traffic component on Boston-Sao Paulo like there is on De
47 incitatus : It will improve DL's ability to offer a product in many markets. They may be small, but they add up. Look at for example, ATW-GRU-ATW. KC is Neenah i
48 worldtraveler : All of this talk about DTW not being able to support two flights/week belies the basic reality that there isn't an international market operated by a
49 Cubsrule : But, again, any passenger at ATW who flies to Brasil a lot is already going to be flying UA. Unless that passenger is lucky enough to come and go on
50 LAXdude1023 : Youre contradicting yourself. Youre bragging about how much Latin American service ATL has (which isnt my beef), but in the same breath say that some
51 OA412 : quote=abrelosojos,reply=38]= Who are these "numerous" people outside the regular DL-fans on A.Net?[/quote] Well here's one of them. MaverickM11 has po
52 DFWEagle : Interesting, I would have thought it would be quite a bit higher. For comparison, do you have any data on how much of CO's Atlantic revenues come fro
53 worldtraveler : there is no contradiction... if you want me to say it more clearly, I'll say that ATL has far more Latin service than it deserves as well... I would
54 incitatus : There is no need of "lucky enough" in every case. Please read the last paragraph of my reply #42. Some business travelers, and if I may say, many, ha
55 Cubsrule : If that's the case, why don't we see Delta in markets like Montevideo or Medellin?
56 LipeGIG : Mark, one fact to be considered and past reservations can show it is that, many people flying from Rio and Sao Paulo investment banks and asset manag
57 LipeGIG : Experts or not WT, please remember the DTW flight departs at 17:45 which is not so good for connections on the United States side. Just to remember t
58 Acey559 : Delta's ATL flight also spends 7 hours on the ground in TLV. I took that flight last year because it spend so long on the ground. I flew in on the in
59 airbazar : How many will they get at DTW and what kind of yield will they get with only a twice weekly flight? Geographically, DTW is a backtrack for just about
60 mayor : FWIW, PA's and DL's original flights to TLV, spent anywhere from 10-11 hours on the ground in TLV.
61 worldtraveler : which highlights the importance of making the Asia connections work best... In markets like Brazil, you can pull up schedules with a wide range of de
62 airbazar : That's the point. BOS wouldn't need to rely as much on connecting traffic to fill a twice weekly flight to GRU. I could be wrong but I just don't see
63 mayor : The weekly frequency may indeed go up, now, with the announcement of the DTW-HND route.
64 PKRJ : Not just that, but I don't think there is so much demand for Asia from GRU. Sao Paulo has a big Japanese community and JAL still cancelled the NRT-JF
65 airbazar : I don't see Brazil opening up more frequencies to US carriers any time soon. The recent increase was a very long and drawned out "battle". I just don
66 Transpac787 : I see. So regardless of NRT-LAX-GRU being longer than NRT-DTW-GRU, you still intend to tell us that the DTW flight will not have enough feed?? LAX Tp
67 LAXdude1023 : I do think DTW-GRU will work. I dont think any other South American routes will work from DTW. ATL can handle all the other connections to South Amer
68 airbazar : You conveniently left out all the Asia carriers with which DL has interline agreements at LAX. Touche', not to mention the O&D traffic between th
69 LipeGIG : AFAIK, It's highly expected a new negotiation allowing more 42 frequencies for the next 3 years. But only if ALL current frequencies were distributed
70 worldtraveler : no it really wasn't... Brazil knows it needs to diversify traffic away from GRU... see Lipe's comments above and mine below. but 2X week is not enoug
71 worldtraveler : Eagle, about half of CO's Latin revenue comes from connections and about 1/4 each from IAH and EWR.... fairly well balanced. less than 10% of DL's La
72 Post contains images KaiGywer : You'd do it
73 Post contains images airbazar : More people than you think do it every day. You should set up a clinic at LAX. You'd make good business
74 LAXdude1023 : There are about 1.6 million O&D passengers per year from ORD to Latin America. There are about 1.5 million O&D passengers per years from DFW
75 PKRJ : So what's the best option? Buy my own airplane and fly SYD-GRU non-stop? LOL Flying from Australia to Brazil is a pain on the neck, but this is one o
76 LAXdude1023 : Whats wrong with QF from EZE or LA from SCL?
77 Post contains images airbazar : And how is that supposed to allow DL to increase frequencies on DTW-GRU? Brazil has always been willing to allow more frequencies outside of GRU/GIG.
78 PKRJ : Nothing, I just wanted to make my point explaining why someone would rather fly from SYD-LAX-GRU than to stop in South America. For example, if I'd h
79 worldtraveler : a couple of options are available: DL operates ATL-GIG using unrestricted frequencies. If DL obtains new restricted frequencies for more ATL-GIG. Aft
80 Transpac787 : I'm sure those are especially high-yielding. Why carry passengers on your own flights via DTW when you can send them on interline agreements via LAX?
81 Cubsrule : Agreed. The other problem with going after the UA frequencies is that "new UA" might use them more of the year, perhaps by moving IAD-GIG to EWR-GIG.
82 LipeGIG : I hope for that. Brazil already give this to Portugal and now to Peru. TA and LP are exploring the markets quickly... we will see soon more LIM-GIG,
83 Cubsrule : How much would that change the status quo, though? I don't see many carriers banging down the doors with requests for new non-GRU services.
84 commavia : That would be good. I understand the historical ambivalence of Brazil to open up their market to U.S. carriers, but there past fears are really no lo
85 worldtraveler : First 300 passengers is one and a half plane loads of passengers on a 767.... second, who says they will be shared w/ AA other than as part of a norm
86 Cubsrule : Agreed, but by the same token, that fact makes it unlikely that the bilateral would be structured to permit such shifting of frequencies to GRU. The
87 PKRJ : Believe me, you NEVER flew AR to be willing to pay thousands of Dollars to stay inside their airplane for more than 1o hours. GIG-EZE was enough for
88 LipeGIG : Yes they don't have ATI, WT, but they belong to the same alliance and people will go after the extra mile. It's not a problem to book a ticket with b
89 Cubsrule : What is preventing DL from doing that tomorrow? Sure, but we're reaching a point where demand for non-GRU frequencies is less than supply, so those t
90 worldtraveler : I can assure you that absent being able to even codeshare, there is very little ability for alliance partners to jointly benefit...if there was actua
91 Cubsrule : Are OALs running 100 percent load factors to GRU throughout the year? If not, they can easily pick up passengers. They simply have to fill the empty
92 LipeGIG : Frequencies. We're not on an open skies yet. I could show to you the example of Peru. Just less than 6 months from the Open Skies ex-Sao Paulo and we
93 Cubsrule : But I don't need an additional frequency to operate a tag.
94 worldtraveler : There is a model called the Boeing spill model that estimates the effect of losing passengers you need to have (high yield passengers) when LFs get ab
95 Cubsrule : I think that's right. We wouldn't see Delta running a bunch of tags even if there were bottomless opportunities for non-GRU frequencies (indeed, Delt
96 LipeGIG : DL holds just 4 weekly frequencies on the northeast. There's no benefit to run a single tag on a single route. Tags without a network with 3 or 4 fli
97 DFWEagle : It’s not a similar situation at all. AA and JL are both in the same alliance and JAL’s most valuable elite flyers get a lot of benefits by travel
98 Cubsrule : ...but also holds tons of unrestricted frequencies.
99 LipeGIG : Exactly my comment on previous posts. If any airline will offer more room, is AA. The JFK-GIG is probably to deal with 2 situations, the need of New
100 Cubsrule : Interesting? Yes. Likely? No.
101 worldtraveler : Lipe, AA carried less than 50 passengers per day or 350 seats per week on JFKGRU through to GIG; their new JFKGIG service is about adding new seats t
102 LipeGIG : Even on winter this number is bigger than you mentioned. It's 1/3 of the plane on low season and on high season it gets more than 150 pax/day. Note t
103 Post contains images worldtraveler : DOT data DOES include But no one else is adding service to GRU which is where the Japanese population goes.... you are trying to argue that AA will b
104 DFWEagle : It makes perfect sense because that is where the US-Brazil and US-Japan capacity is being increased within the network. JAL does not carry a large nu
105 incitatus : Your earlier math failed to account for GIG-JFK taking some of the connecting traffic behing GRU that now has to get on GRU-JFK to go to NY.
106 Post contains images DeltaRules : It'll originally be listed on a 763, then be upped to a 764, again to a 744, downgauged to a 777, down again to a 757 (which makes no sense), before
107 bobnwa : Do you think Delta is wrong in right sizing its equipment to the need? I say good for them they are able to do it.
108 Post contains links and images airbazar : Mostly using common sense. Numbers from 2008 show 25,000 passengers traveled from Brazil to Australia: http://www.tourism.australia.com/en-...visitor
109 worldtraveler : DFWEagle, your logic is valid but it doesn't explain why DL actually already gets higher average fares from GRU-NRT than AA... and yet DL has a 2 clas
110 Cubsrule : In fairness, though, the limited schedule also limits the route's utility for a lot of passengers. DL might pick up some MKE-GRU or SEA-GRU traffic a
111 DFWEagle : The obvious explanation is that AA has simply not been as successful as DL until now at attracting premium passengers on NRT-GRU. This is likely beca
112 Cubsrule : I was poking around with how much time this route will save on Asia-GRU. The results were interesting. PVG-GRU 27:10 on LH via FRA 27:40 on UA via ORD
113 LipeGIG : No, just need to check two different reports which shows the route number and the breakdown between GIG and GRU. The sum of both is equal to JFK-GRU-
114 worldtraveler : That is true... and there are indeed cities connected to DTW that are not connected to ATL but the number of those cities is quite small and they are
115 cokepopper : Question How far away is the U.S. and Brazil from open skies?
116 worldtraveler : The real hangup is capacity at GRU and it is unlikely that it will be resolved before 2014 if even then.... I'm still not convinced that the Brazilian
117 Cubsrule : Agreed - but with all of the moving parts at the NRT hub, it seems like it would have been far easier to fine tune the DTWGRU schedule - with all of
118 cws818 : How is relating personal experience an admission of bias?
119 LipeGIG : This is not a bias. This is the experience given by LAX. I had the comments about how the flight would last and it was what happen. Now i'm raising c
120 worldtraveler : because it demonstrates that you already want to view DL's new attempt at DTW-GRU as a failure because of what happened at LAX....the only thing comm
121 LipeGIG : No, i just see the same components and i did not see anything different. We're changing the market, but O&D is smaller and there's no expectation
122 incitatus : Maybe we should start another Brazilian Aviation thread and look at those stats.
123 Rafabozzolla : I would disagree. Brazil-Asia are long routes. You don't need daily flights if you are going to take a 25 to 30 hour flight, cross 10 to 12 time zone
124 LipeGIG : To the point of a business traveler, you travel in order to meet a business demand. 2x weekly covers 2/7 of your potential demands or around 28.5% of
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