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AF447 : New Infos On The Blackboxes  
User currently offlineJumboForever From Japan, joined Jul 2005, 200 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 44860 times:

Information revealed this morning on French radio RTL and confirmed by the Ministry of Defense and the BEA. According to the French Navy, some analysis of the signals recorded few days after the crash allowed to locate the Black Box within 5*5km. This is a significant step forward for further search as it seriously narrowed the search area.

Links in French:
RTL: http://www.rtl.fr/fiche/5940064401/i...es-du-vol-rio-paris-localisee.html
Le Figaro: http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/20...km-des-boites-noires-de-laf447.php

69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemattteo From France, joined Feb 2008, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 44720 times:

I hope it's true and that they'll get them

Regards,

Mattteo  


User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1843 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 44421 times:

even if they do recover them, will the data still be recoverable?

User currently offlineGroup51 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 44247 times:

BBC reports that there are reports that it's been found!!!!

User currently offlineGroup51 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 44231 times:

On the rolling ticker: "Investigators reported to have located 'black box' from 2009 Air France crash in Atlantic"

User currently offlineKFlyer From Sri Lanka, joined Mar 2007, 1226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 44221 times:

As per this info http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news/int...arch_extended_in_mid-Atlantic.html they had launched an extended search 4th May and it seems those miniature submarines pinpointed this area from a 3000sqkm area.
It seems no major news source has picked this up yet. Btw, could any of you please check and tell me whether the info I've written here is correct ? My French is not good at all. http://www.airlineindustryreview.com...ox-location-pin-pointed-within-5km



The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
User currently offlineGroup51 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 44192 times:

So, located doesn't mean found? Lost in translation?

User currently offlinebrenintw From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1644 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 44174 times:

Quoting rj777 (Reply 2):
even if they do recover them, will the data still be recoverable

Probably will be. I don't recall how new this A330 was, but I would imagine it would have digital recorders. Solid state memory (flash-based memory) is virtually indestructable (about the only way to make a flash drive un-readable is to drive a nail through it). Harddisk-based memory isn't as durable, but in this case, I'd say it's probably still readable given the technology that exists today.

I really do hope that they find out what caused this accident.



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently onlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8565 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 44146 times:
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Quoting Group51 (Reply 6):
So, located doesn't mean found? Lost in translation?

Disclaimer " My French is pretty crap .... but ....

My understanding of the reports is that the boxes have not been 'located' ( ie 'found' ) but rather that they have been 'localised' ( ie . 'narrowed down to an approximate location' ) .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineKFlyer From Sri Lanka, joined Mar 2007, 1226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 44056 times:

@kiwiandrew Pinpointed to 5sq.km, right ?  


The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
User currently offlineEBGARN From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 43893 times:

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 9):
Pinpointed to 5sq.km, right ?

According to what I've read, it's a 5x5 km area, which means 25 sq km.



A306,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343/6,A380,B717,B727,B737,B744,B752/3,B763,B772/3/W,C-130,AN26,CRJ900,Il62,DC-8/9/10,MD80's,BaeR
User currently offlineFN1001 From Moldova, joined Sep 2008, 234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 43865 times:

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 9):
@kiwiandrew Pinpointed to 5sq.km, right ?

5 x 5 km = 25 sq km, right?   



Mai bine să-ţi fie rău decît să-ţi pară rău.
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2707 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 43867 times:

So far no announcement on the BEA webpage: http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flig....af.447/sea.search.ops.phase.3.php

User currently offlineKFlyer From Sri Lanka, joined Mar 2007, 1226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 43574 times:

This is what they call as 'founded'
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/05/06/2892426.htm
No, not really found. Only localised.



The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
User currently offlineloalq From Switzerland, joined Jan 2007, 224 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 43524 times:

The information is actually still being verified by BEA. It seems that they have managed to pinpoint its location with an incertitude of 5 sq km due to new software used to analyze the recordings made after the crash by the french submarine Émeraude. Some sources say that even if found, they may not be recoverable.

So to my understanding this finding has been made "in the laboratory" but not on the field (not during this latest search effort that finished some days ago). At this moment still a lot of confusion going on, but let's hope they really find and recover those boxes.

Source: O Globo / BBC
http://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/mat/20...as-pretas-do-voo-447-916512820.asp



"...this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped."
User currently offlineKFlyer From Sri Lanka, joined Mar 2007, 1226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 43420 times:

@loalq Yes, appears only a mathematical calculation. So can the data really be recovered or not ? Any A330/air crash experts ?


The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12146 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 42299 times:

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 15):
Any A330/air crash experts ?

There are still a lot of unknown factors as to the actual location of both black boxes. Are they simply sitting on the top of the mud? Are they buried with other wreckage and/or a possible land slide later in that area that could have buried them? Are they relitively close to each other or is there only a possibility of finding one but not the other? Did one or both fall/sink into an underwater cave? Are they retrivable from the ocean floor or side of a mountain?


User currently offlinedanfearn77 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 1813 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 41697 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 16):

true. But if we can recover a teapot stuck under an overturned bath that's buried in mud and which is a few floors down on the wreckage of the Titanic then surely it's worth trying to recover this?



Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
User currently offlinetim222 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 41343 times:

according to the BBC... someone has quoted that the terrain is 3000m deep and as mountainous as the Alps... in his words it'll be like... finding a shoebox in an area the size of Paris

User currently offlinetim222 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 41317 times:

Quoting danfearn77 (Reply 17):
true. But if we can recover a teapot stuck under an overturned bath that's buried in mud and which is a few floors down on the wreckage of the Titanic then surely it's worth trying to recover this?

but the difference with the Titanic is that is is on a flat ocean floor, unlike AF that is in an area of mountainous terrain (can you call it mounatainous terrain when it is underwater?)


User currently offlineloalq From Switzerland, joined Jan 2007, 224 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 41062 times:

This "new software" that somehow made it possible to now "hear" the signals of the blackboxes on the recordings made by the Émeraude last year was developed by the same company that manufactured the pitot tubes that are the focal point of this accident, Thales. Unless they are different Thales...


"...this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped."
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2707 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 40468 times:

Quoting loalq (Reply 14):
So to my understanding this finding has been made "in the laboratory" but not on the field (not during this latest search effort that finished some days ago).

Thanks for your translation. This sounds a little different as in the morning. Two days ago BEA announced some new search areas. I wonder if they are refering to area no 2.
http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flight.af.447/images/situation.04052010.en.jpg
Source: http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flig...t.af.447/pressrelease04may2010.php

In the legend it was named "zone already covered situated in the initial search zone whose exploration appears to be required again due to the extremely rough terrain". I wonder if this is the zone they "identified in the laboratory" of Thales or if this is another issue.


User currently onlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6907 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 40065 times:

Quoting loalq (Reply 20):
This "new software" that somehow made it possible to now "hear" the signals of the blackboxes on the recordings made by the Émeraude last year was developed by the same company that manufactured the pitot tubes that are the focal point of this accident, Thales. Unless they are different Thales...

This may be ironic, but it has no relevance. Every company that survives must be competent in something, otherwise they wouldn't survive. Every company also makes mistakes, and there are also totally unforeseen events that arise and embarrass the best companies. True, the pitot tubes made by Thales have been problematic, but it is entirely possible that it is due to a problem that was totally unforeseen by either the Thales engineers or the relevant regulators. I suspect this is so because they must have been certified in order to go into service; the fact that a problem with them showed up in service indicates to me that something was happening that nobody anticipated. This can and does happen from time to time; remember the Comet?



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12146 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 37655 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 22):
SEPilot

That is all true, however in the case of the Thales pitot tubes (at least the model/part # in question), they (EASA & FAA) have identified the problem some 10 years ago, yet whatever the problem was it was not fixed and Airbus continued to install them on new build A-330s and A-340s. The pitot tubes were also still approved as replacement parts. The events that lead to the crash of AF-447 was not the first time one or more probes (3 on the A-330 and A-340) on individual airplanes iced up, for whatever reason.


User currently onlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6907 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 36500 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 23):
That is all true, however in the case of the Thales pitot tubes (at least the model/part # in question), they (EASA & FAA) have identified the problem some 10 years ago, yet whatever the problem was it was not fixed and Airbus continued to install them on new build A-330s and A-340s.

That certainly sounds more like Airbus, EASA, and the FAA dropped the ball. Thales may not be totally blameless, but I would be inclined to blame the others first.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
25 spudsmac : Yeah, but they were not looking for the teapot. They "found" a teapot there. It's a lot different than this situation.
26 pylon101 : If they localized the area 5 km x 5 km it still a giant step forward. These days no crash should left explained. Best wishes to all sides involved!
27 brilondon : Flash based memory is only able to be kept if the battery power is still feeding it and I am not sure there is any battery power to keep the memory a
28 SEPilot : Those memory sticks we all use have no battery, I believe; and yet they hold data quite well. Isn't that the same technology that the flight data rec
29 md80fanatic : I think flash memory requires no electricity to store data, only to write data is power needed.
30 rfields5421 : Thales is a huge company with many different divisions which never talk to each other about techincal stuff. With over 68,000 employees in at least 50
31 comorin : I do hope this search continues and is funded in a bigger context, as these boundary-pushing efforts have larger technology payoffs. Deep Sea capabili
32 overloaduk : As i work high up in a company that mass produces flash memory products as i design them i can tell you that NO POWER is needed to store the data on
33 RB211TriStar : Obviously the details are not public domain, but one would assume that Thales has modified their sonar algorithms to focus specifically on the "noise
34 Post contains links SANChaser : Found a press release on the BEA site for today (May 6th). Press Conference on Monday, May 10th by BEA: this is a Google translation of the following
35 tockeyhockey : has anyone every considered the idea of making these things float?
36 Post contains images KELPkid : Negative. Flash memory requires no external power. SDRAM (Static DRAM) is as you said...
37 Post contains images COS777 : I've been thinking the same thing. A high tech way to do it could be something similar to a self inflating life vest that activates when it detects t
38 Post contains links Mortyman : The Norwegian ship " Seabed Worker " has been hired in by Air France and BEA , searching the seabed. The ship will now start it's 3rd and maybe last r
39 DUSDude : What use would that be if it is stuck inside the tailcone? The black box would have to be smart enough to jettison itself before inflating flotation
40 rfields5421 : The recorders are pretty heavy for the density of their volume. Not impossible to design a flotation system. Certainly not something inflatable thoug
41 einsteinboricua : Locate: determine the place of... Find: To meet with, or light upon, Locate and find, while similar, are not the same. Say you and I are in Paris. To
42 COS777 : If the airplane is obliterated on impact, then it will probably float to the surface. If the airplane stays intact, it might be better for it to stay
43 rfields5421 : Closer to 10-11 pounds The L3 model dimensions are less than 6 x 6 x 12 inches (0.25 cu ft) - or 6 x 6 x 20 inches (0.4 cu ft) The Sagem Avionic mode
44 prebennorholm : All we need to recover is the flash memory, (something similar to) a micro SD card. Then we add protection to that SD card, and it grows in size. Wit
45 QualityDr : Assume a weight of 11 lbs for the L3. That's a density of 0.71, when water is 1.0 (approx; some small corrections for temperature and pressure, of co
46 rfields5421 : The units in the Swiss air craft were both free of wreckage and both sank. They may have been an older, heavier model. One of the units from the Ethi
47 prebennorholm : For floating devices we have to forget about present day technology and design from scratch. I imagine a glassfibre thing which mainly holds a pinger
48 Burkhard : There are technologies now available to copy data and read data over several meter to RFID chips. It would not cost the world to have a permanent copy
49 zeke : This statement as usual is false and vexatious. All aircraft that use pitot tubes are vulnerable to icing issues, everything from a little C152, a 73
50 Post contains links laddb : My co-worker is out there helping to run some of the WHOI AUVs in the search. He's been updating us, but was told if the box was actually found, then
51 Post contains images comorin : Thanks for a really informative post - awesome! Those AUVs seem really phenomenal. Interesting that they would be named 'Ginger' and 'Marianne' !
52 Post contains images MrSkyGuy : Let's try to not to blame the vendor too much here.. remember Thales built these pitots to specification. By Airbus. Overseen and approved by EASA &a
53 Post contains images desediez : All recorders are designed as LRUs (Line Replaceable Units) what makes it possible for the maintenance to replace a recorder within minutes and witho
54 MD11Engineer : And the pinger (ULB, underwater locator beacon) is attached to the outside of the box, usually near the carrying handles. The box is a pure recorder
55 Post contains images Gonzalo : Thanks for this very informative post !! Please keep us updated with the last news from your friend, I think we all have more hope today than a week
56 Post contains links SANChaser : The BEA has released a pdf at their french site today. Unfortunately I don't know any french. There is not much text in the file, it indicates the new
57 Post contains links TommyBP251b : My french is also not the best. But I guess they are looking closer at a new area of interest which can be seen in slide 6&7 pointed out as a whi
58 Aesma : Actually Paris is bigger than that (but not very big, nothing like the greater London). However the comparison is poor because Paris is not mountaino
59 EMBQA : Me personally.. doubtful. The CVR / FDR boxes are not water tight and over that extended period of time being exposed to saltwater at great pressure
60 billreid : Flawed lagic, presumably they are still looking because the data is still retreivable, if not why spend miliions and millions chasing a blank check?
61 danfearn77 : I agree with you and maybe it was a bad example but i was just trying to point out that we have the technology available to atleast give it ago. If w
62 spacecadet : "Damaged" and "destroyed" are two different things. The investigative bodies in charge of things like this, and the manufacturers of the CVR/FDR, can
63 Post contains links and images tom355uk : The search of the new area 20km ESE of the last known position has produced no new information and the search has returned to its original position: h
64 pilotaydin : This is not true unfortunately...as someone who has spent the last 1.5 years deeply within the TK 1951 RA error accident in amsterdam, i can tell you
65 Post contains links and images N14AZ : Latest update from May 17: Source: http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flight.af.447/info17may2010.php compared to the area they want to explore as per th
66 Post contains links N14AZ : According to aero.de the search has been ceased. They also report that some data of the French Navy was wrong and had to be drawn back http://www.aero
67 Aesma : Nothing new on the BEA website.
68 Post contains links casinterest : Here is Reuter's news on it. http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64O4I820100525 Nothing really new, other than the French Navy annoncing Phase 3 of
69 alwaysontherun : Broadcasts Sun 30 May 2010 22:00 BBC Two (England, Northern Ireland, Scotland only) Wed 2 Jun 2010 00:20 BBC Two (except Northern Ireland (Analogue),
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