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HND Awarded To Delta (DTW, LAX) HA (HNL), AA (JFK)  
User currently offlinenwafan20 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 158 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 29407 times:

Apologies if this is posted already.

DOT Announces Proposed Decision to Award Four Routes at Tokyo’s Haneda Airport

The U.S. Department of Transportation is proposing to award four routes to Tokyo’s downtown Haneda Airport to American Airlines at New York, Delta Air Lines at Los Angeles and Detroit, and Hawaiian Airlines at Honolulu when the airport’s fourth runway becomes operational later this year.

The opportunities were negotiated in connection with the U.S.-Japan Open-Skies agreement which was concluded last December. They permit U.S. carriers to introduce a total of four daily round-trip services at Haneda. Previously, U.S. carriers serving Tokyo have been limited to using Narita Airport, which is considerably farther from the city.

In a show-cause order issued today, the Department proposed to grant one opportunity to Hawaiian for service from Honolulu, two opportunities to Delta for service from Los Angeles and from Detroit, and one opportunity to American for service from New York’s JFK Airport. Also applying for Haneda slots were Continental Airlines, Continental Micronesia and United Airlines.

In its proposed decision, the Department said selecting Hawaiian Airlines, which currently does not serve Japan, would add a new competitor to the U.S.-Tokyo market. Delta’s planned flight from Los Angeles would serve the largest west coast and mainland U.S. market to Tokyo. Delta’s flight from its Detroit hub would provide Haneda access to a broad area in the central and eastern United States. American’s New York flight would serve the second largest mainland U.S.- Tokyo market and would also promote competition among several major airline alliances.

If the proposed decision is made final, the selected carriers would be required to begin Haneda operations by Jan. 29, 2011.


224 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1575 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 29356 times:

Wow, I don't understand how AA got JFK before UA got SFO. This is definitely not what I expected.

User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3541 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 29306 times:

Wow, TOTALLY not what I expected. DL got two!!! Most people thought they wouldn't get any. Congratulations to DL!


User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 34614 posts, RR: 70
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 29260 times:

Shocked, I was certain one airline would not get two awards. Very disappointing. For AA to get NYC over Continental? And for UA to not get SFO? And for the largest Narita slot holder to get two awards while CO gets nothing? Shocking.

I would have chosen DL-DTW/UA-SFO/AA-LAX/CO-EWR.

In the end, though, AA will still get LAX-HND via the JAL JBA and UA will get SFO-HND via the NH JBA.

[Edited 2010-05-07 12:31:27]

User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 13501 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 29144 times:

Yeah, agreed - I'm shocked.

The DoT may have bought into Delta's argument that they're now at a disadvantage due to other airlines' alliances.

Either way, I, too, am shocked that AA got JFK over Continental getting EWR, and that United didn't get SFO - which in my mind was actually probably the strongest single application of all of them.

This means Star will have to rely solely on ANA now to get HND-U.S. flights (probably to SFO and LAX), while SkyTeam will have Delta's two flights, and oneworld will have AA to JFK, plus I'm sure soon JL to not only SFO (already announced) but also LAX.

User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4938 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 29112 times:

I wonder if the UA/CO being left out had anything to do with the merger?

Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2076 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 29060 times:

HA to HND is great. But is there any sort of "understanding" between HA and JL at HNL when JL brings in 5 744s and a 763? Or, in other words, would HA be slapping JL in the face by going there themselves after JL has brought SO much money and tourism into Hawaii?

My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlineDTWHKG From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 28869 times:

I'd say it's fair. Skyteam only has DL, but *A has NH and OW has JL.

User currently offlinePohakuloa From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 28821 times:

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 6):
HA to HND is great. But is there any sort of "understanding" between HA and JL at HNL when JL brings in 5 744s and a 763? Or, in other words, would HA be slapping JL in the face by going there themselves after JL has brought SO much money and tourism into Hawaii?

JL will be downgrading a lot of their 744's to 763's in the relatively near future into HNL, so the drop in capacity will lead to (theoretically) fuller aircraft for JL and even with HA's entry into HND, it shouldn't make a dent in that new capacity.

Fast cars and 'Jet A' - such a sweet smell!
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 22175 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 28817 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
The DoT may have bought into Delta's argument that they're now at a disadvantage due to other airlines' alliances.

With JL being so weak now, and NH being stronger, and UA already having a strong NRT presence, maybe they thought SkyTeam was too weak in Japan and OneWorld had been damaged.

But frankly, I think the HA award is the stupid one. HNL is not the market that needs the proximity HND provides. HA should run HNL-NRT while UA is awarded SFO-HND.

Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineseamefly From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 324 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 28558 times:

if DOT awarded UA with SFO and CO with IAH in the end it would be the same thing with them getting 2 awards just like DL.

Plus they have NH... it's understanding that they didn't get any at the present time. That's what called a fair square competition. May be CO/UA should have planned it better before announcing their merger before the award is published...

[Edited 2010-05-07 12:49:01]

[Edited 2010-05-07 12:51:46]

User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3612 posts, RR: 35
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 28508 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 3):
In the end, though, AA will still get LAX-HND via the JAL JBA and UA will get SFO-HND via the NH JBA.
Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
The DoT may have bought into Delta's argument that they're now at a disadvantage due to other airlines' alliances.

I suspect that the DOT has fairly considered the impending impact of anti-trust immune joint ventures and their impact on competition in limited entry markets such as this.

Star and oneworld partners still will have metal-neutral access to key markets, as Mark mentions above. They idea that both AA and JL could have been flying LAX-HND is certainly not in the best interest of competition. It makes me wonder what would have happened had DL bid on JFK-HND as well.

User currently offlineDelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1839 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 28507 times:

Funny, nether DL or AA got their primary requests.

User currently offlinerwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3286 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 28507 times:

The only two routes here that offer any meaningful connecting opportunities are DTW and JFK. In this sense, it seems the DOT strongly favored O&D demand opposed to connecting options. This makes sense to a degree, since a nonstop to NRT is still likely to be favorable to a connection to HND, especially considering the horrendous arrival and departure times at HND.

That said, I'm disappointed. I think UA should have gotten an allocation (instead of HA) and I think AA should have gotten LAX over DL (better connections).

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11521 posts, RR: 57
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 28400 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I'm also surprised with DL double allocation but not surprised with HA which was in my view the best bid being a new player. I believe the DL bid with a larger plane on the largest market played a master role on the decision. For NYC I don't know ....

New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 22175 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 28397 times:

Quoting Delimit (Reply 12):
Funny, nether DL or AA got their primary requests.

Yep, so much for that being a big factor...

At least two awards were political, the problem you get with restricted access/regulated routes.

Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineLAXSTEW From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 58 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 28313 times:

GREAT news for DL. Shocked and stoked for the LAX route...can't wait to work it.

User currently offlineflyguy1 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1748 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 28258 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 3):
For AA to get NYC over Continental?

Why is this so dissapointing?

727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
User currently offlinecokepopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1246 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 28096 times:

Congrats Delta! A lot of pie should be eaten by many on here. Humble pie that is.

User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 13501 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 28036 times:

Quoting Delimit (Reply 12):
Funny, nether DL or AA got their primary requests.

Actually, I believe JFK was AA's top request.

Quoting flyguy1 (Reply 17):
Why is this so dissapointing?

Because Continental's EWR hub offers vastly more connections, and caters just as well to the O&D market, as JFK.

User currently offlineHeeseokKoo From South Korea, joined Jan 2005, 810 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 27992 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
This means Star will have to rely solely on ANA now to get HND-U.S. flights (probably to SFO and LAX), while SkyTeam will have Delta's two flights, and oneworld will have AA to JFK, plus I'm sure soon JL to not only SFO (already announced) but also LAX.

Well, JL announced SFO and HNL, so no LAX for now. I also wonder where ANA will launch from HND too, and now SFO for sure. This must be part of DoT's reaction on CO and UA merger.

Quoting Delimit (Reply 12):
Funny, nether DL or AA got their primary requests.

Or, it is only HA who got primary request. This result indeed surprising.

User currently offlineSeatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 829 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 27885 times:

Will AA keep their JFK/NRT flight or move it to HND?

User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6395 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 27843 times:

JAL moving SFO to Haneda "I believe" did it in for UA and SFO.

"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 10912 posts, RR: 16
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 27729 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 3):
In the end, though, AA will still get LAX-HND via the JAL JBA and UA will get SFO-HND via the NH JBA.

and will NH do LAX-HND also?

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 3):
I would have chosen DL-DTW/UA-SFO/AA-LAX/CO-EWR.

agree other than I wouldn't have given DL DTW. I would have done DL getting SEA.

Quoting commavia (Reply 19):
Actually, I believe JFK was AA's top request.

You sure?
I thought it was
AA: 1) LAX 2) JFK
DL: 1) SEA 2) DTW 3) LAX 4) HNL
CO 1) EWR 2) GUM.

Mark which way was it?

User currently offlineflyguy1 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1748 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 27730 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 19):
and caters just as well to the O&D market, as JFK.

Time for the monthly EWR v. JFK debate  

727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
25 MasseyBrown : Ok, time to admit I was almost totally wrong. HA was my only correct guess for both airport and airline. The DOT rationale should be an eye-opener.
26 STT757 : We already had that during the CO/UA merger discussion vis a vis UA's P.S. service.
27 RL757PVD : I wonder if Delta had included JFK as one of their 4 if DL would have gotten JFK and AA, LAX?
28 Post contains images Transpac787 : I must say, I'm shocked that UA didn't win SFO. Good in a way though, keeps everyone's collective feet on the ground that way.
29 mah4546 : AA will continue offer double-daily service between Tokyo and New York City. AA asked for JFK first and LAX second.
30 jetlanta : Why? JL is doing SFO-HND and UA will have an ATI joint venture with ANA on two HND routes of their joint selection. (That's how ATI JV's work) They c
31 deltal1011man : Ok thanks So what will JL/NH fly? I assume both will do LAX/SFO-HND?
32 HNL-Jack : The overall awards puzzle me somewhat, although it would appear the join JOA's played heavily into the decision. HA's selection is the one that I thin
33 crosswinds21 : This is as surprising to me as it is to everyone else. What baffles me the most is that LAX would go to DL instead of AA and that NYC would go to AA i
34 Post contains images Aloha73g : Congrats to HA! Can't wait to see that A330 flying to HND later this year. Hopefully I'll be on it someday It'll be nice to have 2x daily to HND (HA a
35 avek00 : DOT typically does favor O&D heavyweights in first round allocations, which is why I'm beyond shocked at the DTW-HND route authority. DOT has in
36 Post contains links commavia : Some quotes from the DoT decision explaining the choice of Delta for LAX, AA for JFK, etc.: http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/05/delta
37 OA412 : I'm also a bit shocked by this. I actually expected the awards to, pretty much, go this way, but the players to be different. I fully expected UA to g
38 bobnwa : When will we be hearing from the A.netters who said things like "Delta is a joke for applying for four awards"," Delta's application is a joke", "no w
39 Jacobin777 : From the aforementioned link: "Detroit has proven for decades to be a strong hub for Japan and Asia services, and is well-situated geographically to
40 Post contains links DFWEagle : The DOT document, with their full reasoning, is available here -: http://www.regulations.gov/search/Re...#documentDetail?R=0900006480ae8cc2
41 jetlanta : Delta is flying it on a 744 vs. a 777 for AA. AA's connecting opportunities can't match Delta capacity. In the end, a passenger is a passenger and De
42 HALFA : This has been a great last few weeks for HA! First they are named #1 Airline for service quality in America. Then they post a small Q1 profit while se
43 Post contains links OA412 : Here are the AA and DL pr's: http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1022 http://aa.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2920 Nothing yet from
44 mah4546 : Given the decisions are now public, and JAL will likely only have two U.S,-HND slots, I would not be surprised if the slots are used for HND-LAX/SFO
45 ScottB : The DOT rationale is in the press release. * HA got a route award for HNL-HND as a new entrant; new entrants get preferential consideration. * DL got
46 McMax : From the DOT's award: "We tentatively find that Delta's proposal at Los Angeles would maximize public benefits by providing service in the largest wes
47 HAL : That's happy on both sides of the cockpit door! HAL
48 yeogeo : Replace Detroit with Chicago (ORD) and Delta with United in the above quote. I wonder if United should have requested as it's number two choice ORD-H
49 Pellegrine : The big waste here is DL DTW-HND....dumb. Should have gone to UA SFO-HND.
50 jetlanta : Star will have NH's two route authorities from HND to the U.S.
51 CALPSAFltSkeds : What a shocking turn of events. To shut out both UA and CO the same week they announced their merger makes one wonder what's going on. And to think th
52 Jacobin777 : Jetlanta, DL's B744 will be downguaged to an A332 by summer..... Not really, as part of the reasoning was because of Michigan itself, which would requ
53 joeljack : Can they do this without an application to the DOT to do this? United could have applied with a 744 then just switched it to a 777 if that's the case
54 Post contains images Transpac787 : What profound logic you bring to the table. Considering UA didn't get a slot from their very strongest Transpac hub, I'm dying to know how you figure
55 Post contains images yeogeo : ORD-NRT =6294 DET-NRT =6402 yeo
56 DAL767400ER : NRT-LAX is being downgraded to an A332, no one ever said HND-LAX would go A332. And with HND-LAX now added, DL will actually offer around 1,600 more s
57 mah4546 : Four more routes should be available for a 2011 launch, and I can already sense them being: UA: SFO, EWR AA: ORD DL: SEA By that time we will likely h
58 deltal1011man : Don't think they will try for LAX again? Just let JL do it? Oh and when do they have to start these flights? 60 days?
59 Post contains images jetlanta : DL has a legacy of service in the LAX-Tokyo market since airplanes could actually fly it. NRT almost certainly. But Jacob, seriously, this sort of co
60 allegro : Ok, so the die are cast ... what about the metal ? Guesses ... HA - HNL-HND - A332 or 763 AA - JFK-HND - 77E DL - DTW-HND - 744 or ... DL - LAX-HND 77
61 Post contains images deltal1011man : AA JFK-777 HA- HNL 763 DL DTW/LAX both 744. As per the DOT apps.
62 Jacobin777 : Beats me? Oh, I see, I thought it was regarding LAX-NRT.....so is LAX-HND going to be a B744? Its not really the distance between the two..its the fa
63 deltal1011man : Yes. LAX-HND will be 744(as will DTW-HND) LAX-NRT is a 332 now.
64 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I thought you were talking about LAX-NRT and not LAX-HND-my bad and I stand corrected!... Thanks!
65 jetlanta : Sorry, it looks like you might have just been confused. LAX-HND will be a 744. While LAX-NRT is also scheduled to go back to a 744, it wouldn't shock
66 Delimit : I wonder if AA and DL can command a premium on the fares for the HND service.
67 rwSEA : I am somewhat skeptical as to how profitable these flights will be. The times are horrid, and considering that fact, I think many may still opt for t
68 Cubsrule : Looking only at how DoT awarded these flights and not how the airlines applied, I think HA/HNL, DL/DTW, DL/JFK, AA/LAX would have made much more sens
69 HeeseokKoo : Really? Already announced somewhere else? I thought this is almost the end unless HND adds one more runway or something else happens. Haneda used to
70 surfandsnow : Are you sure? I don't remember the Japanese ever alluding to MORE slots becoming available...
71 DFWEagle : The new runway at Haneda will eventually generate a total of 197 new slot pairs per day at the airport. However, for a number of reasons, all these s
72 mah4546 : JL and AA will both be doing. It's a 50-50 joint venture. No point in having both on the route especially given the horrid time restrictions. Yes. Af
73 jetlanta : Yeah, I'd buy that. That too.
74 HeeseokKoo : But that's day-time slots, and as long as longhauls are restricted to night-time, US got no luck to grab any of those 64 slot pairs. Maybe GUM or SPN
75 DFWEagle : That's correct, if long hauls remain restricted to night-time slots, then the US will not receive any of the next round because they are all daytime
76 Post contains images iliribdl : Exited to see DL get both DTW and LAX. Anyone have any idea when the flights will start? I read somewhere that by January 2011 but can it start earlie
77 DFWEagle : They can start as soon as the new runway at Haneda opens, which is expected to occur in October 2010. AA has tentatively scheduled a start date for t
78 Post contains images iliribdl : I see, thanks buddy.
79 dlphoenix : The HND slots serve my needs (As a business passenger) much better than the NRT slots. The current situation: - I can barely work on the day of depar
80 surfandsnow : I can only imagine the bonanza that will ensue for any additional HND slots that become available, especially if any are daytime slots that could dir
81 Post contains images BigGSFO : Maybe they'll start Peking by then too.
82 Packcheer : I didn't really see the point in starting a new topic, so I'll just ask here, i guess it sort of applies.. How is Delta's 332 being rotated into LAX,
83 worldtraveler : Absolutely wonderful day for Delta and goes to show why conventional wisdom on a.net is pretty much meaningless.... DL won these route cases because 1
84 rjm717 : An interesting outcome to date, but we need to be mindful that the process is far from over. The awards are temporary, subject to any valid rebuttal o
85 incitatus : Though you should have mentioned that DL's first preference was SEA and the DoT saved DL from itself. The SEA market is not large enough for HND and
86 OA412 : I'm betting that HA will apply for a second daily HNL-HND flight as well. My favorite was that DL should have "printed their application in red ink."
87 cws818 : A wonderful day for DL, certainly. Discussion on this website, however, is interesting; it is not always correct, but it is informative and shouldn't
88 mah4546 : You do realize that JAL can start LAX-HND, right? JAL is not restricited to what routes it can fly from HND, nor has it confirmed anything other than
89 eta unknown : I don't think there was ever any doubt HA wasn't going to get at least one of their two requested HND-HNL services. The Hawaii tourist market is in th
90 Post contains links crosswinds21 : Well, according to the following article, HA isn't satisfied with getting one slot pair during this go around: http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/sto
91 coolfish1103 : Not surprised at all. I guessed Delta will get 1.5 slots while Hawaiian will get .5 slots. UA was thrown in simply to give Star a shot, but DOT shot i
92 mah4546 : Every airline always asks DOT for what they originally asked for. Its a formality. DOT has - in my memory - never changed its mind.
93 crosswinds21 : Oh ok...well I didn't know that. I just thought that it would be pretty ballsy for HA to tell the DOT that it should get both slots, when it was (at
94 OA412 : I saw that in HA's PR, however I doubt that the DOT will award them the second flight. Both proposed HNL-HND flights are scheduled to depart within a
95 CALPSAFltSkeds : I believe all but the last year those DL flights were flown by NWA. I was talking about DL's history of service continuity at LAX. DL is now in charg
96 Pohakuloa : From what I have gathered from other threads and respected people who know rather than speculate (not an attack on you, just my statement), JL will b
97 Pohakuloa : Normally I would agree with your statement that there is no added benefit from a second flight at about the same time if it were almost any other cit
98 Pellegrine : I had a feeling for some reason DL would get 2 slots, but I don't see it as very equitable since there were only 4 available. Yes I am right. SFO-Japa
99 lucky777 : Bitter, party of one, your table is ready. Hmmm, let me see if i have you figured out....had the DOT awarded the carriers/routes you wished for, they
100 PlanesNTrains : It seems that the bottom line is that the DoT saw it this way: DL HA AA/JL UA/CO/NH Because JL and NH can route their flights to whichever market sui
101 Pellegrine : My table is always ready, in the back by the chef, or by the window. No waits here. I don't really need to praise any government agency for being wis
102 LAXDESI : Good points. In any event, DOT will have a chance to study the impact of its decision before the next round of awards in 2011.
103 Post contains images OA412 : Backwater? I take it you are aware that despite its problems, Detroit is still the 11th largest metro area in the United States and that DTW is able
104 HSVflier : there is no agreement that i know of and Hawaiian has several new A330s coming online. Additionally last i checked JAL is on verge of major downsizin
105 apodino : My only reaction to this is UA shot themselves in the foot by only requesting SFO and not LAX. Had they requested LAX, I think its fairly obvious they
106 Post contains images Pellegrine : The only one in the top 20 to be negative for population growth for the past 10 years. One of only 24 out of the top 250 MSAs in the United States to
107 coolfish1103 : I believe the following were considered: 1. Three largest O/D Market? - Honolulu - Los Angeles - New York 2. New entrant serving those markets? - Hawa
108 PlanesNTrains : SFO (and LAX) do have access - if desired - via JAL and ANA. Because UA is working towards (has?) a full JV with ANA, the name on the plane doesn't m
109 mah4546 : Or rather than people who "know," just people who read press releases since JAL already announced tentatively SFO-HND and HNL-HND. But no schedules o
110 DFWEagle : You fail to consider the proposed joint venture between AA and JL, which will include metal neutrality and revenue sharing, including in the JFK-Toky
111 worldtraveler : oh. it's not just a.net people but all the US-based conventional wisdom carved up the US awards without considering the impact of alliances or the fa
112 fun2fly : Won't DL simply just cut one DTW to NRT and put this as a replacement? Same for LAX?
113 hjulicher : Yet another elitist person who believes there's nothing between the Pacific and Atlantic Coasts. Sad to think that people like this believe they know
114 Post contains images NYCAdvantage : Both should decide AA and JL but my question is, Why compete when you could have the advantage of opening a whole new market for them selves? ORD-HND
115 Post contains links HALFA : Why are you shocked with this? Just about everyone on here conceded one slot to HA before the awards were announced. It certainly wasn't shocking to
116 Post contains images Jacobin777 : So far, that is not what they have said...maybe they will...but we have to take what they have stated at face value. Adding CO/UA with ATI-JV however
117 brilondon : To paraphrase Mayor LaGuardia, if you want to go to New York City, you should be able to go to New York City and not New Jersey.[Edited 2010-05-08 06
118 Delimit : DL will still have connections to cities beyond NRT needing those seats filled (for now at least). Obviously, they can downguage the DTW flight or can
119 michman : DTW-NRT is already down to one flight a day (it had traditionally been two). Cutting the remaining flight would have a pretty significant impact on t
120 Post contains links HALFA : Just found this interesting news article from KITV, Honolulu's ABC News affiliate. http://www.kitv.com/news/23488562/detail.html Sounds like Mazie Hir
121 deltal1011man : agreed. Maybe the plan is let AA take over SFO-NRT? They can ask tell they are blue in the face.....wont be getting it. The DOT will give a slot to w
122 MasseyBrown : Unless HA can prove that Obama wasn't born in Hawaii, they probably have no real expectation of getting another slot. They're just laying the groundw
123 DFWEagle : I don’t think JAL will be too concerned about Delta already being on LAX-HND. If JAL decided to go head to head with Delta at LAX, they could easil
124 worldtraveler : The simple fact is that DL has never lost a route case because they downgraded service. The DOT - despite what some want to believe - recognizes that
125 ikramerica : As I said, HNL was purely political with so much power in congress devoted to securing it. It makes little sense, it doesn't serve the American publi
126 STT757 : Wow, we're kissing their behind now but were killing them about the DCA/LGA slot swap. Which is it?..
127 LAXDESI : Roughly speaking, HND-USA new route authority adds about 2,500 seats/day on Tokyo-USA sectors. That's almost a million seats per year. What is the siz
128 AADC10 : Shutting out *A might be partially to protect JL. Otherwise NH could start to dominate Japan.
129 Post contains images commavia : Not only do I doubt that JAL could care less if Delta is on LAX-HND, but I completely agree with MAH that it is now quite likely JAL will switch thei
130 worldtraveler : Yet, neither AA or JL does as well as DL does on LAX-NRT which they both operate now... and yes, JL could try to make LAX work but you still seem to
131 HALFA : Yes, and the powerful legislators had good reason to secure it. It directly benefits Americans. Allow me to draw you a big picture. Awarding HA a slo
132 SR117 : I think Japanese carriers have a distinct advantage. US carriers would ideally turn around their planes after a late night arrival at HND (10pm arriv
133 LAXDESI : Thanks for the info. I thought it would be higher than that. So HND-USA takes away 2,500 of that away this year. If three more routes are awarded nex
134 FlyASAGuy2005 : People seem to forget that this is not the old, pre-merger DL. We have NW in the mix and they seemed (didn't know much about them before the tie-up)
135 LAXDESI : As per DOT, USA-Japan traffic for the year ending September 2009 was about 10.4 million passengers. DOT calculates this data bi-directionally. Theref
136 DFWEagle : I have not missed the point you are trying to make, but I think that JAL stands to gain more, and make more money, by operating HND-LAX than what the
137 OA412 : True, but is it not still in the top 20? Does it not still have strong O/D to Japan? Is it not the only interior US hub to have sustained service to
138 dlflynhayn : Haaaawaiian! Love my home town airline.As a DL employee it hurts saying that but I'm so proud of were they are now,they have been number one in a lot
139 Cubsrule : If connectivity matters, wouldn't AA have been a more appropriate carrier at LAX? These awards make pretty clear, I think, that approval is a "when"
140 DFWEagle : Agreed. It is also important to remember that these awards only become active IF Japan officially signs the open skies deal (they still have not done
141 OA412 : I tend to agree with you. I used "if" only because of the (albeit very slight) possibility that there may be a last minute change. Nevertheless, I do
142 Cubsrule : The first point is absolutely right, but I don't know that the second necessarily is. As long as JL gets rescued somehow, I don't know that Japan nec
143 DFWEagle : The US-Japan treaty (2009 MOU) that provides the rights to Haneda is the same agreement as the one which provides open skies, and is conditional on a
144 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Or SJC-NRT... ....that would actually reopen up a few more AA/MQ route again... 1)NH is more yield oriented-hence their very low TPAC B77W configurat
145 Cubsrule : That was my point. I don't think the Japanese government necessarily cares about ATI, and they for sure don't care about open skies. It does beg the
146 LDVAviation : Will you stop already? It is downright annoying when you make up whatever facts you need to back up your positions. AA and JAL have NOT been able to
147 worldtraveler : when opportunities like this arise, you use the aircraft necessary to seize the opportunity. Further, transpac routes generally require more than 1 a
148 Cubsrule : As usual, you are arguing with a point I did not make. The point is not that DL's feed is lacking. The point is that AA has more.
149 mah4546 : But, of course, you did nothing but brag about how "wonderful" it was that AF would be operating LAX-LHR to Delta's full benefits. Pick a side and st
150 LDVAviation : I just have to ask, Do you realize the advantages a national carrier (e.g., JAL and NH) has over a foreign carrier (e.g., Delta) in its home market?
151 jetlanta : LDV, to play devil's advocate here, wouldn't DL have an advantage in the U.S. point-of-sale? Just sayin...
152 LAXDESI : Good point. However, by adding flights to HND, DL will have less of a feed on US-NRT sector, which on paper could lead to reduction in sectors/freque
153 mah4546 : Yes, but: 1) The Japanese carriers still offer superior on-board product which discriminating U.S. customers are likely to prefer. And both Japanese
154 Post contains images jetlanta : 1) Would this explain the long-term advantage Japanese carriers have displayed in the market? 2) I can pull the data on Monday, but I'll be happy to
155 Post contains images Jacobin777 : As you know, its "metal neutral" so the revenues are there. For a OneWorld/Star Alliance flyer, it makes no difference if they fly LAX-HND/NRT-SIN on
156 Post contains images DFWEagle : Ha! I am not going to get into a mud slinging battle with you, but I’d say I understand the US-Japan airline business pretty well considering it is
157 Post contains links PHXtoDCAtoMSP : Hopefully no one minds if I toot my own horn here when I predicted in "The Games Begin - U.S.-HND Allocations" the following: "After reading everythin
158 LAXDESI : I don't get it. The US-NRT market is currently about 7,000-8,000 seats per day, and US-HND routes will add about 2,500 seats per day. Therefore, US-N
159 cslusarc : That looks to be a better schedule for DL, as a US carrier. I think a 5:05am arrival at TYO is much more attractive than a 10:00pm arrival.
160 Cubsrule : Do US carriers in fact have a revenue advantage? We know that JL in particular has horrid costs, but what about revenues?
161 LAXDESI : As per DOT, US carriers have 60% plus share of the US-Japan Market for year ending September 2009--not bad for US carriers. However, that doesn't tel
162 Post contains images Transpac787 : Ahh, classy to the end. I just love the "I am right but everyone else is wrong" argument. It is most popular with the hardcore conspiracy theorists a
163 Post contains images LAXDESI : What about Obama was born in Kenya?
164 worldtraveler : but it's not EVEN close to accurate to say that AA has more feed.... DL's capacity between the US and NRT is considerably larger than AA PLUS JL COMB
165 mah4546 : On LAX-HND, AA/JL offer: 1) Superior LAX-based connecting possibilities. 2) Superior LAX-based originating premium traffic thanks to AA's much strong
166 DFWEagle : Currently AA and JL each have one daily LAX-NRT flight, both with similar timing, for a total of two daily for oneworld. If AA ended its LAX-NRT flig
167 CXA330300 : AA, though perhaps not as strong as Continental with connections (though AA does serve the major markets in the NE where most HND-origin travellers w
168 OA412 : Good job calling it, very few people (including myself) actually believed that any one airline would receive more than one HND award. By the way, fun
169 worldtraveler : except the DOT said that was not an issue and specificallly said that DL has more than enough connections behind LAX-HND using both its own service,
170 LAXDESI : If HND access and ATI, JV are tied together, what prevents JL from coordinating with AA and announcing HND-LAX when ATI is approved. Is JL obligated
171 mah4546 : Absolutely nothing. And the Japanese carriers are not tied to route use. ANA and JAL simply have two slots each, for which they can use on any routin
172 peanuts : Correct. There are no guarantees in life. DL will be a tough nut to crack though for those who try. It may even make a few airlines more broke than t
173 LAXDESI : Agree that overall capacity in your example is not reduced for AA/JL. However, in the long run more seats to HND(high yield) mean less sectors/freque
174 commavia : Actually, I think that "nut" is already "cracking" on its own - without any help from anyone else. I remain convinced that the fundamentals of Delta'
175 Delimit : Out of curiosity, when talking about the Japanese market, rather than the Tokyo market, are you including KE in the mix? They fly to a large number o
176 commavia : Yes, Korean is a big player in the Japanese market, with lots of flights from tons of Japanese cities nonstop to Seoul. But all of that combined, plu
177 Delimit : It will be interesting to watch play out. If JAL shrinks too much, the difference in Japan-US capacity is going to be pretty marked between ST and OW
178 mah4546 : JAL is not shrinking U.S.-Japan capacity outside of Hawaii.
179 Delimit : JAL still has a long and rocky road ahead of it. I'm speculating. And honestly, I hope they get their act together. They have a special place in my h
180 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Why when Cubsrule talks about domestic feed: Do you turn it into transpac capacity? That's not what he was talking about. That's not what he was talki
181 worldtraveler : That is probably a Japanese gov't decision... and I don't think there is any requirement for JL to announce its routes... but delaying the announceme
182 commavia : I don't buy your argument that Narita's obsolescence has anything to do with Haneda. As I've been saying for five years - since long before U.S.-Japa
183 MaverickM11 : So far there's every evidence that that is exactly what is happening; just look at DL's capacity in NRT. Canibalizing it at HND isn't going to help i
184 worldtraveler : And yes that is true... but the problem is that DL has valuable local market rights from Japan to Asia that they aren't going to walk away from becau
185 mah4546 : The "value" of those rights is exactly $0 once Open Skies goes into effect. It's no wonder Delta lobbied so hard against Open Skies with Japan.
186 Post contains images commavia : I think they will - to a large extent. They won't walk away from all of them, because some markets can't be profitably served nonstop from the U.S. -
187 naritaflyer : I think no one will make money in Tokyo as a result of HND flights. The Japanese government is screwing Tokyo by giving HND long-haul flights. Overall
188 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Those aren't valuable to anyone anymore, especially after Open Skies. Star and Oneworld can both operate fairly significant operations at both airpor
189 Post contains images KaiGywer : That'd be perfect for a nonrev daytrip
190 worldtraveler : precisely.... and despite what everyone else will want to argue, the carriers that will be hurt the most are the JAPANESE carriers. DL CAN shift its
191 commavia : I think that's highly debatable. The Japanese carriers will be hurt by splitting the Tokyo longhaul market over two airports. But lucky for them, the
192 Post contains images worldtraveler : no,... flat out no. NW's NRT hub was larger before DL acquired it than it was in 2000 and it is now larger with DL than it was before... there is no
193 CompensateMe : ... because serving markets such as BKK, SIN and MNL directly from the mainland USA is much more attractive (from an airline''$ $tandpoint) than thro
194 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Of course, like fighting Open Skies because they'd be the worst hit. No they've just continually downgraded capacity, cut routes, and used fewer slot
195 commavia : Yes, flat out yes. I didn't say the hub shrank. I said NW was down-gauging. That's a fact, whether you like it or not. I'm looking at a NW timetable
196 CompensateMe : The hub is larger today than it was 10-years ago (largely due to the additional slots NW acquired after NRT's additional runway opened). NW has long
197 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : If anything, this endless cheerleading (not just DL or WT, but that is the most prominent example to me) really puts a sour taste in your mouth every
198 CompensateMe : NW sold large volumes of bulk tickets... perhaps (a) the economics of operating such large aircraft today isn't as attractive and (b) DL's not as rel
199 commavia : Exactly my point. Nonetheless, I understand that the above doesn't fit into the carefully crafted meme du jour for some, and thus I had to be attacke
200 CompensateMe : But the hub continues to serve the SAME role/purpose today that it did in 2000. Flights haven't been dropped (in fact, several have been added) and a
201 mayor : Whether you want to believe it or not or think it's overplayed, it is absolutely true.
202 mah4546 : The value is zero because on October 1st, 2010, every U.S. airline will have 5th freedom rights from Tokyo. It is attractive to serve BKK, SIN and MN
203 MaverickM11 : The NRT operation is down 25% in ASMs whether you compare it to 2000, or 1996, or anywhere in between. Recent buildups in 2003 and 2005 were also qui
204 commavia : It is absolutely true ... for every airline. Delta is hardly unique. They were small once, and now they're big. That's the same for basically every a
205 Delimit : I think Commavia was quite clear about what he was objecting to. It had nothing to do with the content; it was about the delivery. Also, the actual c
206 worldtraveler : precisely.... but the real point is that these people want to show that Delta cannot succeed at what it said it was doing and so they continue with t
207 mayor : I don't know.....this looks like he's objecting to the content, also: You cheerlead in your way, we'll cheerlead in ours and make no mistake, you do
208 Post contains images commavia : So the passion play continues. This is so nauseating. This isn't about whether people love or hate Delta, hope they succeed or fail, etc. It's about
209 MaverickM11 : You ever wonder why? Tell us how the market is so incredibly different for 5th freedoms out of NRT.
210 mayor : We don't have to be reminded, for sure......but we are. Look in the mirror and repeat that same statement. You and others on here do the same thing w
211 worldtraveler : honesty demands being able to admit when you are wrong. YOU have been part of a chorus that has been telling us for months that DL will not get meani
212 STT757 : Are you including CO/UA/AIr Mike?.. Guam- Fukuoka 1 737-800 (daily) Hiroshima 1 737-800 (Th, Su) Nagoya 2 737-800 (daily) Niigata 1 737-800 (Tu, Sa)
213 MaverickM11 : For someone who is so consistently wrong but never able to admit it, you have quite a lot of chutzpah to say something like that Let's not count our
214 LAXdude1023 : If thats the case then you are the least honest person Ive ever encountered.
215 worldtraveler : STT, remember that DL (NW) also flies between Japan and GUM... CO serves more routes and has about 50% more capacity than DL but CO's total GUM-NRT ca
216 AA787 : Exactly! That is why DL has been downsizing the overall hub operation at NRT... because as you just said, "there are no examples of a 3rd player effe
217 Post contains images MaverickM11 : There aren't any examples of successful scissor hubs either, but that doesn't seem to figure into your reasoning
218 worldtraveler : except that is factually WRONG! DL's NRT operation is larger today than NW ever had in the past 10 years. DL will operate 347M ASMs per week from NRT
219 Cubsrule : To be fair, though, that's as much a function of what various carriers for as it is of Delta's merit. Had Delta applied for JFK, Delta probably would
220 Post contains images MaverickM11 : False. It's 25% smaller. They were well into 2005. In fact they were over 400M for most of 2001. Never has stopped you!
221 Post contains links LDVAviation : Yes, we know, we know, that Delta is the largest transpac carrier. But, have you ever stopped to wonder why? What structural advantage has Delta (Nor
222 LDVAviation : PREPARE FOR THE APOCALYPSE. I hear, however, that there is a bomb shelter in Atlanta we can all use. LOL... Note to WorldTraveler: You really need to
223 MaverickM11 : You were singing a different tune when you were trying to convince everyone that DL was going to win JL and rule the Pacific with its new Japanese pa
224 Srbmod : At this point, the discussion has become nothing but petty bickering amongst several members and has essentially run its course. Because of this, the
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