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DTW To Become 2nd Largest Transpac Hub?  
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 16
Posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 18024 times:

With today's announcement of DL being awarded DTW-HND, seen here:

HND Awarded To Delta (DTW, LAX) HA (HNL), AA (JFK) (by nwafan20 May 7 2010 in Civil Aviation)

Is DL at DTW on track to become the second largest Pacific hub behind UA at SFO??

UA at SFO:
NRT - daily 744
NRT - daily 777
KIX - daily 777
ICN - daily 744
PEK - daily 744
PVG - daily 744
HKG - daily 744
SYD - daily 744

DL at DTW:
NRT - daily 744
HND - daily 744
NGO - 6x weekly 744
HKG - 5x weekly 77L
ICN - 5x weekly 77E
PVG - 5x weekly 77E + 2x weekly 77L


As far as I can tell, DTW will be larger than UA at ORD and CO at EWR, correct??




57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesurfandsnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2908 posts, RR: 31
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 17899 times:

Bear in mind that DL operates so much out of DTW because there are no (East) Asian carriers serving the airport. From SFO, ORD, LAX, JFK, SEA, and even ATL and DFW you have at least one Asian carrier with an established presence on the transpacific routes. So yes, from a U.S. carrier daily operation/capacity standpoint, DTW might come in at #2. But from ORD, you have to look at everything flown by AA, UA, JL, NH, KE, and OZ. At JFK and LAX, you have even more airlines to consider...


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently onlinetimberwolf24 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 17902 times:

If you are talking most Transpac flights by a single airline then yes, but if you are talking total number of flights ORD would still have more.

UA at ORD
NRT daily 744
HKG daily 744
PVG daily 777
PEK daily 777

AA at ORD
NRT daily 777
PVG daily 777
PEK daily 777 (pending slot issue)

JL at ORD
NRT daily 77W

NH at ORD
NRT daily 77W

KE at ORD
ICN daily 744

OZ at ORD
ICN 4x weekly 777

[Edited 2010-05-07 16:49:54]


Living in LA, ORD/MDW will always be home!
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 17862 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Thread starter):
DL at DTW:
NRT - daily 744
HND - daily 744
NGO - 6x weekly 744
HKG - 5x weekly 77L
ICN - 5x weekly 77E
PVG - 5x weekly 77E + 2x weekly 77L

The main difference is DL has only two "daily" flights from DTW, CO has four "daily" transpac flights from EWR.

EWR-

NRT daily 777
HKG daily 777
PVG daily 777
PEK daily 777



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineiliribdl From Germany, joined May 2007, 1205 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 17818 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
The main difference is DL has only two "daily" flights from DTW,

PVG is daily from DTW. (but 2 days operates on 77L)



delta.com
User currently offlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1551 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 17672 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Thread starter):
UA at SFO:
NRT - daily 744

2x daily for half the year. 777 for the second flight.



717,72S,732/3/4/5/G/8/9,744,752/3,763/4,772/3,D9S/5,M8/90,D10,319/20/21,332/3,388,CR2/7/9,EM2,ER4,E70/75/90,SF3,AR8
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 17559 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
The main difference is DL has only two "daily" flights from DTW, CO has four "daily" transpac flights from EWR.

DL at DTW is still bigger, seats and flights, than CO at EWR. DL may not have 4x daily but they have 37 weekly vs COs 28.(and as pointed out they have 3x daily just PVG uses the LR on some days)



yep.
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9817 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 17539 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Thread starter):
UA at SFO:
NRT - daily 744
NRT - daily 777
KIX - daily 777
ICN - daily 744
PEK - daily 744
PVG - daily 744
HKG - daily 744
SYD - daily 744

ICN is 5x weekly year round. 777s in winter and 747s in summer.

Also both PEK and PVG go down to 777s in the winter. The second NRT daily 777 goes away in the winter.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 17461 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 7):
ICN is 5x weekly year round. 777s in winter and 747s in summer.

per the timetable

its 5x weekly in May then goes to 6x weekly June 4th then daily on June 4th.....all on the 744



yep.
User currently offlineburj From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 901 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 17343 times:

DTW is a great facility and it is in the Eastern Time Zone
(As announced every few minutes in English, Japanese, and Mandarin!)

It makes an excellent Asia gateway!


User currently offlineAtlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 16325 times:

Or you

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 13):
No one builds hubs any better than DL.

Tell that to Dallas, Cincinnati, Orlando, and Portland.

Yes that is true, but the statement worldtraveller said is true to. ATL is still a hub that was built and was the number one hub long before DL was even the largest airline. It is a hub that is often copied but very few come close to it. But at the other hand CIncinnati's days were more numbered when DTW joined the fold. Orlando was always destined to be a LCC bastion and Portland would have worked had they used the 767's and had the 777's back then. Either way the statements on both sides have valid points.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
User currently offlinePolarExpress From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 16241 times:

Actually, I think you guys are missing CO's EWR-BOM and EWR-DEL flight. As far as I recall, India is still part of Asia. (Yes, yes, I know that technically EWR-TLV is in Asia, but no one thinks of the Middle East as being part of Asia...)

[Edited 2010-05-07 21:09:31]

[edited] I just realized that this is referring to Transpac - are the polar flights to India considered transpac or transatlantic?


[Edited 2010-05-07 21:11:05]

User currently offlinejepstein From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 15973 times:

If Detroit is in such rough shape economically how is the airport able to support all these TRANSPAC flights? I assume it's mainly because of easy connecting fights

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7808 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 15897 times:

If the question is "Is DTW the 2nd largest single airline Transpac hub?", the answer is yes. If we are talking total flights, LAX, ORD, SFO, and JFK would be ahead.

Im very happy for DTW. Detroit is a city in ruins and has fallen on such hard times. Im really happy to see something going right for Michigan.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2726 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 15434 times:

Quoting PolarExpress (Reply 12):
Actually, I think you guys are missing CO's EWR-BOM and EWR-DEL flight. As far as I recall, India is still part of Asia. (Yes, yes, I know that technically EWR-TLV is in Asia, but no one thinks of the Middle East as being part of Asia...)

[Edited 2010-05-07 21:09:31]

[edited] I just realized that this is referring to Transpac - are the polar flights to India considered transpac or transatlantic?

Well, to get technical, if polar routings aren't included, the you can pretty much throw out anything from the Midwest and east coast to PVG, PEK, ICN and HKG as they transit the Arctic Ocean or Bering Sea. EWR-DLE and EWR-BOM follow transatlantic routings over the Southern tip of Greenland, Iceland and Scandinavia.


User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 15241 times:

Quoting jepstein (Reply 13):
If Detroit is in such rough shape economically how is the airport able to support all these TRANSPAC flights? I assume it's mainly because of easy connecting fights

Connections+Pretty much the entire North American Auto Industry= Metro Detroit Michigan. The enchantment area is pretty big too...

Lapeer, Livingston, McComb, Oakland, Wayne, St. Clair, Genesee, Washtenaw, Jackson

Quote:
The nine-county area designated by the United States Census Bureau as the Detroit–Ann Arbor–Flint Combined Statistical Area (CSA) includes the three additional counties of Genesee, Monroe, and Washtenaw, the metropolitan areas of Flint, Ann Arbor, and Monroe, plus the Detroit-Warren-Livonia MSA. It had a population of 5,357,538 as of the 2000 census. The Census Bureau's 2008 estimate placed the population at 5,354,225.[1] This CSA covers an area of 5,814 square miles (15,060 km2). Lenawee County was removed from Detroit's CSA in 2000.

With the adjacent city of Windsor, Ontario and its suburbs, the combined Windsor-Detroit area has a population of about 5.9 million.[6] When the nearby Toledo Metropolitan Area and its commuters are taken into account, the region constitutes a much larger population center. An estimated 46 million people live within a 300-mile (480 km) radius of Detroit proper.

So yes, Detroit is in rough shape but between the big three, esp with GM investing heavily in China with Buick and other companies headquarter in Metro Detroit, Detroit will remain a strong hub.



Long Live Memphis!
User currently offlineburj From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 901 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 15193 times:

Quoting jepstein (Reply 13):
If Detroit is in such rough shape economically how is the airport able to support all these TRANSPAC flights? I assume it's mainly because of easy connecting fights

CONNECTIONS! The McNamara terminal (which pretty much just serves DL/NW now and a few int'l flights as everything else goes to the North Terminal) is a beautiful facility and is extremely easy to make connections.

DTW is also in a great location for going to Asia (think great circle route) and because of the nightmare that is the NYC airspace (delays, weather, congestions, etc) ...it is a preferred airport for making connections for areas that geographically would normally go to a NYC airport.


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5373 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 15086 times:

To those who have asked, I'm certain that the OP was referring to the largest single-airline TPAC hub. Bear in mind that DL is the only airline offering TPAC service from DTW. Obviously, JFK, LAX, ORD, etc. are larger overall TPAC hubs, but DTW may actually grow to be the second largest single-airline TPAC hub.

Quoting PolarExpress (Reply 12):
I just realized that this is referring to Transpac - are the polar flights to India considered transpac or transatlantic?

In general, while flights to India (and the Middle East) are indeed flights to Asia, they are usually not considered to be part of an airlines transpacific route network.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4064 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 14989 times:
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Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 14):
Im very happy for DTW. Detroit is a city in ruins and has fallen on such hard times. Im really happy to see something going right for Michigan.

Right on, LAXdude1023! I couldn't have said it better myself.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20339 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 14721 times:

Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 11):


Yes that is true, but the statement worldtraveller said is true to. ATL is still a hub that was built and was the number one hub long before DL was even the largest airline. It is a hub that is often copied but very few come close to it. But at the other hand CIncinnati's days were more numbered when DTW joined the fold.

DTW also has an amazing airport. In addition to being very passenger-friendly, it's also airline-friendly. Runways are plentiful and the airport shrugs off all but the most extreme Midwest blizzards with barely a delay. I may have a distaste for the city of Detroit, but I'll transfer through that airport any day of the week. It's widely rated as one of the best airports in the world and deservedly so.

NW did a very good job at designing that terminal and DL is lucky to have it.


User currently offlinenetjetsintl From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13220 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 14):
If the question is "Is DTW the 2nd largest single airline Transpac hub?", the answer is yes. If we are talking total flights, LAX, ORD, SFO, and JFK would be ahead.

that's what I was thinking....DTW could never, EVER match LAX, SFO and JFK for trans-pac flights


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 12024 times:

Whats the chances of DTW getting flights from Korean Air? Wouldn't it make sense since Korean Air is Sky Team to move its operation to DTW for better connections (ie to northeast, mid Atlantic, Midwest) than going down to ATL and people having to backtrack on flights?

Wasn't China Southern supposed to fly to DTW? I remember reading about that a few years back. I thought there was an agreement, or were they waiting on delivery of 787s?


User currently offlineburj From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 901 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 11412 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 21):
Whats the chances of DTW getting flights from Korean Air?

Didn't Korean Air have service to DTW? I know I saw their 747 parked at DTW a few years ago... Would make sense for them to connect to such a major hub for their alliance partner...


User currently offlineworldtraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11192 times:

KE is unlikely to start service to DTW.. MSP has only one transpac destination and it could easily support an ICN flight by either DL or KE. Since DL and KE already have ATI, they can discuss adding new US destinations such as MSP but since they don't have a joint venture, it is not likely that one will be added until/unless DL-KE regard to a JV.

As for DTW's size, the HND route award coupled with DL's new service to ICN and HKG this year make it very possible for DL to grow DTW into the largest interior US transpac hub.

GIven that UA's ability to add more flights is limited by the performance and range of its aircraft, there isn't likely to be much more new serivce from ORD for UA until they can tap into their own new aircraft or get their hands on CO's higher performing 777s. IN the meantime, though, DL can add a whole lot of new service from DTW.

A new PEK route is likely DL's to have as soon as they believe the market has returned enough and DL clearly needs an interior US gateway to PEK... NW historically carried alot of TPE traffic on a one-stop basis, and with the CI partnership, DL has the ability to make TPE work. Restarting the KIX flight (the 332 with the performance improvement package can easily make it) would add yet another flight.

It is very possible that DL could have the largest interior US gateway from DTW and the largest transpac gateway outside of the west coast.

It is great news for Michigan and I think will show that DL is far more interested in doing what is right for DL and happy to help build the DTW economy in the process; adding more destinations and having a powerful transpac gateway will do wonders in attracting new business.

And DL is very likely to add new transatlantic service along with the GRU flight and DTW all of a sudden is very happy to see the DL name pasted all over the city. In the space of a couple years, Michigan's postiion in the world could be significantly elevated... let's hope Michigan leadership take DL's steps and make them work... it will be good for DL employees, the community, and Delta Air Lines.


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9660 times:

Quoting burj (Reply 22):
Didn't Korean Air have service to DTW? I know I saw their 747 parked at DTW a few years ago... Would make sense for them to connect to such a major hub for their alliance partner...

No, and they likely wont now.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 21):
Whats the chances of DTW getting flights from Korean Air? Wouldn't it make sense since Korean Air is Sky Team to move its operation to DTW for better connections (ie to northeast, mid Atlantic, Midwest) than going down to ATL and people having to backtrack on flights?

No need to fly to DTw with DL doing it, oh and there must be a BUNCH of people willing to back track, ATL-ICN will be 10x weekly, daily 744 3x weekly 772.  
Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 21):
Wasn't China Southern supposed to fly to DTW? I remember reading about that a few years back. I thought there was an agreement, or were they waiting on delivery of 787s?

they were/are waiting on the 787, may not happen now though. I expect Delta to jump first.

Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 23):
A new PEK route is likely DL's to have as soon as they believe the market has returned enough and DL clearly needs an interior US gateway to PEK... NW historically carried alot of TPE traffic on a one-stop basis, and with the CI partnership, DL has the ability to make TPE work. Restarting the KIX flight (the 332 with the performance improvement package can easily make it) would add yet another flight.

I agree here.
I think we will end up with:
DTW-NRT daily 744
DTW-HND daily 744
DTW-NGO daily 777
DTW-PEK daily 777
DTW-PVG daily 777
DTW-ICN daily 777 maybe even 744
DTW-KIX daily 777(sorry WT, like the 77E on this route)
DTW-HKG daily 777
DTW-TPE daily 777



yep.
25 SNCntry32 : The economy in michigan will never fully rebound until the city of Detroit has been rebuilt from the ground up. When your largest city in the state h
26 NASCARAirforce : Probably a YYZ or ORD weather diversion When the economy was good in Michigan back in the mid 1990s the houses weren't selling for much more. Detroit
27 SNCntry32 : No but how Americas 4th largest city at one point becomes shambles is beyond me. The metro area is huge, I will not arue that, I will argue that Mich
28 hjulicher : China Southern did announce a while back that they wanted to start service to Detroit from Beijing. It was however on the basis that they would fly wi
29 Post contains images iliribdl : I want to see more European flights from DTW. Seriously though, will all the new flights coming up next few months, and possibly next summer, will DL
30 johns624 : Detroit never got above #5. NYC, ORD, PHL and LA were always bigger. The success of DTW doesn't have much to do with Detroit. It has to do with its g
31 DTWPurserBoy : Remember, DL is building on the foundation that NW built and in a poor economy. The fact that DL is choosing to add trans-pac flying shows their suppo
32 worldtraveler : DL supposedly has 5 767s parked in the desert for right now and the current fleet plan for now uses only 11 of the 16 744s. Part of the reason why DL
33 PSU.DTW.SCE : Agreed. So far, DL has done great things for the DTW hub. ICN, HKG, GRU, HND HNL, SNA, SMF, FSD, etc. DL has shown their support for Southeastern Mic
34 CompensateMe : Detroit does not support these flights; Metro Detroit does. While the city of Detroit may be in ruins, Metro Detroit is not. For example, there are m
35 deltal1011man : SMF is getting cut Last flight is Sept. 18th.
36 worldtraveler : the case can be made that many airports are owned and operated by cities and governments that don't generate the majority of the revenue that flows t
37 michman : The City of Detroit doesn't own or run DTW (thank god!). It is owned by Wayne County and operated by the independent Wayne County Airport Authority.
38 deltal1011man : no it isn't. Look at F con. That terminal should have been done last year, now we are looking at a open date of 2012 i believe. 3 years late is a pre
39 MSPNWA : That's putting the cart before the horse. DL isn't going to turn around Michigan's economy. It's been on a downward slide for decades, and a corporat
40 Post contains links SHUPirate1 : Check the 1940 census numbers on pages 27-29 http://www2.census.gov/prod2/statcomp/documents/1941-02.pdf New York: 7,454,995 Chicago: 3,396,808 Phila
41 SNCntry32 : No. It cant be. Detroit can only be rebuilt when the CITY itself is willing rebuild. No airline or human can help that city, Simple as that...
42 jamincan : I know this thread is implicitly regarding US hubs; however, YVR seems to have greater frequencies on AC to its transpacific destinations. On its wint
43 coolfish1103 : I think it's only considerate to put both foreign carriers + U.S. carriers together to see which destination is the true hub. I'll see what I can do t
44 mogandoCI : but also bare in mind the BARRAGE of asian carriers competing at YVR versus no-one-cares at DTW. DL chose DTW not because it's good or "they support t
45 worldtraveler : precisely... but if DL is able to benefit the Detroit community, that is good for DL. DL or any other company cannot save Detroit... but implying tha
46 Jsquared : My first reaction was that that statement is kind of harsh, but now that I think about it you're unfortunately not too far off - I've also observed t
47 TOMMY767 : NW did a great job of making it the way it is for today but DL is rapidly realizing the potential of making it a major Asian gateway. After ATL, DL m
48 bobnwa : I have been through immigration and customs many times in MSP and have never seen this, not have I ever heard any other passenger arriving at MSP int
49 Delimit : Doesn't the word hub basically imply that we're talking about routes operated by one airline?
50 Post contains images Transpac787 : I agree it is quite the exaggeration but, to play devil's advocate, have *you* ever gone through the foreign passport entry into MSP, or have you alw
51 ptugarin : The topic of this thread is transpacific. Flights to India from East Coast are not transpacific, as far as I know, or am I wrong? By the way, if the
52 coolfish1103 : If that's the definition then it should be edited to 2nd largest U.S. hub. ...or I'll put NRT and ICN on the list to counter what you said.
53 worldtraveler : if you'd like to include Asian hubs, then NRT would be the largest TPAC hub and Delta would be the largest TPAC operator there..... and DL has the mo
54 Delimit : It's obviously implied in the context of the original post, as SFO is listed as the largest.
55 coolfish1103 : Well, I never indicated that it's unreasonable to develop a transpacific hub at Detroit since it was originally inherited from Northwest (being one of
56 Post contains links NorthStarDC4M : Careful, alot of Direct Flight from India are transpolar... and so are alot of DTW-Asia routes (HKG, PEK...) Even DTW-NRT is only very slightly over
57 PSU.DTW.SCE : Neither of those cities are suitable as a global hub for DL. There are many markets in the Eastern half of the US that cannot sustain daily, let alon
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