nomadic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 414 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4089 times:
I am trying to find some additional information about Northeast Airlines service to Los Angeles in short time they operated the route prior to their meger with Delta.
I know that TWA provided their ground service and that they started with 727-100s. Did they ever upgrade to the 727-200? Did they offer more than one departure per day? The only NE timetables I can find show but one flight in each direction, a late-afternoon/early evening arrival from MIA and a red-eye return. Finally, did their route award indicate Miami and Ft. Lauderdale as co-terminals, alowing non-stop service from each city or were they restricted to MIA?
CF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 887 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4053 times:
I believe transcons were out ot the question for a -200, so the -100 was selected. Even then it was pushing the envelope, and they might have blocked off the center seats in economy, which would have made for a nice ride. Certainly, it was weight restricted in one direction, or both.
Tomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 742 posts, RR: 2 Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4034 times:
I recall that when the service first began it was twice a day. Eventually the day time service was dropped, with just the redeye remaining. It was always operated with the 727-100, as the -200 could not do the flight nonstop, and many times the westbound flight made a fuel stop (Houston?) I remember seeing "Delayed: Headwinds" on the flight info board at their Terminal 3 counter more than once. The evening flight went LAX-MIA-FLL and then countinued on up the East Coast.
My family always prefered National's Super DC8's and later 747 "Sunkings" LAX-MIA over the Northeast redeye. Although later in life (Sept '79) I flew a National 727-100 redeye nonstop LAX-FLL.
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
CF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 887 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3772 times:
Quoting nomadic (Reply 3): And how many F class seats did they have? I have not been able to locate any kind of NE seat maps from that period.
I think that NE had a full complement of 24 seats in F, taking up the entire space forward of the galley. I agree that the seat and a half would have been a nice touch, and would have made up for the lack of entertainment or other amenities offered by competitor NA.
Of course, we still have a seat and a half in the airline world - it's euro business class!
nomadic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 414 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3334 times:
Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 2): My family always prefered National's Super DC8's and later 747 "Sunkings" LAX-MIA over the Northeast redeye.
It is too bad that Northeast did not last long enough to put their L-1011 Tristars into service. That would have given them more of a competitive edge. Does anyone know if their MIA/LAX route was profitable when operated with such a small aircraft ajainst stronger competition or was it more of a showcase route, alowing the little airline to say they operated 'coast-to-coast'?
milesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 7 Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2718 times:
The NE LAX-MIA authority also figured in the sale of NE by Storer Broadcasting. NE and NW entered into a merger agreement, but NW made the agreement contingent on the CAB transferring the LAX-MIA route to NW. I believe that when NE was granted the authority, it was "temporary", just as was their BOS-NYC-PHL-WAS to Florida authority awarded in late 1956. (NE was technically a trunk carrier but was really a New England local service airline until they gained the Florida routes, which were given to them in an effort to stem the constant stream of red ink the airline accumulated as they could not make a profit on their local service routes).
The CAB refused to transfer the route to NW and NW called off the merger. Enter Delta. Delta had objected to the NE-NW combine if it included the MIA-LAX authority, and petitioned for the CAB, if they approved the NE-NW merger to transfer the route to DL. Well, as we all know, NE was acquired by Delta in 1972, but the LAX-MIA route was not included. The CAB decided to hold separate hearings on the transfer of that route, and ended up, four years later, awarding it to Western. LOL. I don't remember if Western was still flying the route when Delta and Western merged in 1987. (From the date of the Delta merger to the Western award, National again enjoyed a monopoly on the route).
milesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 7 Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2676 times:
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 9): Quoting milesrich (Reply 8):
I don't remember if Western was still flying the route when Delta and Western merged in 1987.
Western began the route in 1976, and dropped it in 1981, around the time of the Air Traffic Controllers' strike. For a time, WA served FLL and NAS as tags on the MIA end of the route.
EA added MIA-LAX in 1980; I believe they flew it until they shut down in 1991.
Thanks for the update. I remember EA adding it but that was after deregulation.
Another interesting award was the National SFO-ATL route. NA had no other authority into Atlanta, and they dropped the service after a relatively short period of time. Of course, EA added ATL-SFO after deregulation as well as ATL-LAX.
I could really never understand the big deal with the MIA-LAX route. National usually only had one or two nonstops a day when they had a monopoly, and as has been written, NE had as many as three RT's a day but cut back to one, but a lack of equipment probably had a lot to do with it. The route was really too long for the 727-95.
nomadic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 414 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2597 times:
Quoting milesrich (Reply 10): I could really never understand the big deal with the MIA-LAX route
You have to remember that in the era before deregulation, routes into and out of Miami were looked upon as extremely valuable and even had a touch of glamour. The CAB held tight control on who would have access. Just look at what they did to Northeast by giving them Florida rights but making them only temporary. It was hard for NE to do any mraningful long-range planning for finances and aircraft aquisition when there was always the possibilityof loosing Florida. The CAB seemed to be saying 'Play nice or we will take the routes away'. IMO the attitude of the CAB towards NE was a major cause of their problems. On the one hand they appeared to help a struggling carrier, and on the other they did not seem to know how to treat NE...small trunk carrier or large local-service airline.
This all seems rather quaint today when any airline can fly anywhere in the U.S. whenever they want to.
WA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2141 posts, RR: 12 Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2458 times:
Quoting milesrich (Reply 10): Another interesting award was the National SFO-ATL route. NA had no other authority into Atlanta, and they dropped the service after a relatively short period of time. Of course, EA added ATL-SFO after deregulation as well as ATL-LAX.
NA's SFO-ATL award in 1969 has to go down as the most bizarre decision ever made by the CAB, because, as you said, NA did not serve ATL, and had a very weak presence at SFO. NA initially served the route 2x day with DC-8s and 727s, competing against DL, which had served the route since 1961. NA was allowed to "temporarily suspend" the route from 1973 onward, ostensibly due to the energy crisis, but was forced to resume the route in 1976 after the energy crisis ended. NA flew the route just 1x week when they resumed it, possibly to keep the route auhority active in case they had been awarded additional authority at ATL. It was suspended for good as soon as deregulation was enacted. Once NA vacated the route, EA was allowed to take over their dormant route authority.
Not to be nit picky, but EA was awarded ATL-LAX in 1969, not after deregulation. EA was awarded the route at the same time NA was awarded ATL-SFO, and NE was awarded MIA-LAX. At the same time, DL was awarded MIA-SFO, DAL-PHX, and HOU-MIA, CO was awarded DAL-LAX, AA was awarded HOU-SFO, and Braniff was awarded DAL-TPA / MIA.
CO was unable to compete in DAL-LAX against AA and DL, and within a year or two, reduced the route to 1x week.
CO sued to overturn the DAL-PHX and HOU-MIA awards to DL. After seven years of litigation, DL was allowed to keep DAL (by then DFW)-PHX, but was forced to give HOU-MIA to CO.