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FedEx Orders More 777's  
User currently offlinerelaxitsfedex7 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 62 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10249 times:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...11038_fedex08.html?syndication=rss

In the article is says FedEx will order four boeing 777's from boeing and buy 2 more from other sources.
Sorry if this news has already been posted.

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesasd209 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Oct 2007, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 9646 times:

Well, this is good news.....is this to add capacity or to replace older model A/C?

User currently offlinedanfearn77 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 1812 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9075 times:

777 doing well in recent weeks!


Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4396 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9072 times:

Quoting sasd209 (Reply 1):
Well, this is good news.....is this to add capacity or to replace older model A/C?

Even if 2 MD10 go out it is more capacity...


User currently offlinecf6ppe From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 351 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7936 times:

A Memphis Commercial Appeal link to the fedex agrees to buy six more 777's story
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news...fedex-agrees-to-buy-six-more-777s/

which is essentially the same story as appeared in the Seattle Times the day after the CA story appeared .

It is interesting how these stories seem to clone themselves around the country...


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1877 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7563 times:

It's always good to see the Mighty Triple Seven orders comming in  
Hang in there, Big Twin, your time ain't over yet    

Now... Boeing... PLEASE give us 777-8 and -9!

Signed: Triple Seven fanatics worldwide.



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlinesasd209 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Oct 2007, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7523 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 3):
Even if 2 MD10 go out it is more capacity...

Well, agreed. I was wondering if the total capacity being retired is going to equal the total (777 + (90) 757) capacity coming online. I understand the 757 are replacements for the 727 fleet, but are the 777 additions a 1-for-1 replacement for the DC-10's? If so. that is a huge addition of capacity..

[Edited 2010-05-12 23:50:44]

User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1334 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7226 times:

The 777F replacing DC-10s (nee, MD-10s) would entail a very large increase in capacity as well as range. Keep in mind, the 777F can fly max. payload for around 10.5 hours. That's 106.5 tons for around 4000-4500 nm - i.e roughly double the payload, double the range and 50% more volume.

I'd be surprised if the FedEx 777F does not eventually replace all their MD-11s; that's what it was designed to do. For a replacement of the MD-10, cast your eyes Toulouse way at the A330-200F and you've found the obvious answer. I would be very surprised indeed if FedEx doesn't announce a substantial order for the Airbus in the not too distant future.

The future FedEx fleet could thus be: B777F/A330-200F/B757SF/Assorted bugsmashers, with the possibility of adding the A330-300P2F once it becomes available. A -300P2F won't have the range of a -200F, but it would offer a lot of much needed volume - volume restrictions being what is most often limiting integrators.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 7204 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 7):
For a replacement of the MD-10, cast your eyes Toulouse way at the A330-200F and you've found the obvious answer. I would be very surprised indeed if FedEx doesn't announce a substantial order for the Airbus in the not too distant future.

Farnborough e.g. .........



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinemorvious From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 707 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 7137 times:

Good news. The FedEx colors match the 777 perfectly.
Only if they visit AMS one day!



have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4907 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6924 times:

Can we expect the B777F depolyed on the SYD ops...?

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12468 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6809 times:

I think it's really good news for the economy in general and aviation in particular that FX is buying new 777-200Fs.

For the last few decades (since the end of the 727 run?) FX has been converting used frames.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 7):
I'd be surprised if the FedEx 777F does not eventually replace all their MD-11s; that's what it was designed to do. For a replacement of the MD-10, cast your eyes Toulouse way at the A330-200F and you've found the obvious answer. I would be very surprised indeed if FedEx doesn't announce a substantial order for the Airbus in the not too distant future.

The future FedEx fleet could thus be: B777F/A330-200F/B757SF/Assorted bugsmashers, with the possibility of adding the A330-300P2F once it becomes available. A -300P2F won't have the range of a -200F, but it would offer a lot of much needed volume - volume restrictions being what is most often limiting integrators.

I think a conversion program for 777-200s or 777-200ERs is just as likely.

The 777Fs are being bought new because they have a capability that just can't be obtained via conversion of used frames, just like the A380Fs would have had.

FX specifically wanted a plane that could fly non-stop from its US hubs to its Asia hubs.

Age and the appearance of A350, 787, and either a upgraded 777 or all-new replacement will make plenty of 777 frames available.

It'll be interesting to see which way FX goes, just like the good old "what will replace the FX 727s" threads we used to have here on a.net.

Quoting morvious (Reply 9):
Good news. The FedEx colors match the 777 perfectly.
Only if they visit AMS one day!

Yes, some of the nicest aviation pictures I've ever seen are Matt Cawby's pictures of FX 777Fs at KPAE.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1334 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6610 times:

There are some structural challenges involved in a 777 P2F conversion, namely that the stringer placement does not easily lend itself to loading of 125" ULDs longitudinally. 88" and 96" laterally is not a problem, the aircraft is build for that, but loading 88s or 96s laterally on the main-deck means you're wasting an awful lot of volume. 125" twin-track longitudinally is the only sensible way to go.

It stands to reason that a future conversion program was not a priority when Boeing designed the 777, for very good - at the time - reasons. Neither did Boeing envision that they'd ever offer a procduction freighter. Again, at the time it made perfect sense; the B747 ticked all the right boxes at the time, and back in the mid-80s there was no GE90-110 on the drawing board, and that engine along with the other modifications from the B777 Longer Range program, is what really makes the B777F shine. What they've managed to do, structures wise, with the B777F is even more amazing when taking this into consideration.

The structural "problem" inherent in the B777 is much easier overcome when you can do the modifications during manufacturing, while it's rather more complicated when doing a conversion. It's by no means impossible, just more expensive and time consuming, and might very well add quite a lot of weight to the airframe - on top of whatever strenghtning of the main-deck floor will be required. IAI have floated the idea of converting B777s to freighters, and I for one am very much looking forward to seeing who they'll tackle this issue. An educated guess tells me they'll need to start with a -200ER, since the A model will probably not deliver a meaningful payload and a reasonable range. With residual vaules of -200ERs being what they are, I suspect we're still a few years away from seeing a B777SF taking to the skies. Even so, questions still linger over which will be the more efficient proposal: A B777SF or A330-300P2F?

The A300 frame (incl. 310, 330 and 340) is much easier to convert, due to convenient stringer placement. Then again, Airbus did plan for a freighter version when they designed the aircraft, and that makes both a production and converted freighter a much less complicated exercise.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12468 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6268 times:

Thanks for the great posting!

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 12):
Even so, questions still linger over which will be the more efficient proposal: A B777SF or A330-300P2F?

It'd be interesting to know your opinion on using the conversions vs just buying new 777F or A330F.

As you point out the issues are conversion cost, resulting performance, availability of frames, etc.

It'd be interesting to see how FedEx would use the A330F vs 777F vs their conversions from pax.

Main deck stats for purpose-build freighters are:

Boeing 777F takes 24 contoured pallets 96in x 125 x 120 side by side, 2 contoured pallets 96in x 125 x 112 side by side, 1 contoured pallets 96in x 125 x 120 side by side, 1 pallet 96in x 125 x 72.

Airbus A330-200F takes 18 contoured pallets 96"x125"x96" side by side and 4 contoured pallets 96"x125"x96" single row

Refs:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/777family/pf/pf_freighter_int.html

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfam...es/a330a340/a330-200f/deck-layout/

As you say the conversions will have a hard time reaching the factory standard.

In particular one must wonder if A330 conversions can have the nose gear changes needed for it to be level on the ground.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5411 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6110 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 12):
An educated guess tells me they'll need to start with a -200ER, since the A model will probably not deliver a meaningful payload and a reasonable range.

What range is reasonable? A 777-200A P2F, even if suboptimal, could almost certainly do everything an MD-10-10 can do and then some.

Very low acquisition cost can make up for a lot of faults, and I think the acquisition cost of a 777-200A frame for conversion will be very favorable. Even the ERs will be cheaper than new-build A330Fs.

But I agree with you that the potential availability of A330-300 P2F is a major point in the A330's favor.


User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1334 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6012 times:

To start from the back, I believe it will be necessary to do something to raise the nose-gear, but don't think it'll be the solution engineered for the -200F, and neither does Airbus.

As for buying new vs. used and converted, that very much depends on how the aircraft will be used. Buying new B777s can be justified as long as they're employed on long-haul routes, resulting in very high daily utilisation hours. However, for shorter routes, the aircraft of all the integrators spends far more time sitting on the ground than they do flying; it's the nature of the business. That's one of the reason why both DHL and FedEx went for used and converted 757s, instead of accepting Airbus' offer to develop and produce brand new A320/321s.

No conversion, however, will ever reach the numbers offered by a production freighter as you say. The newer the aircraft is you're converting, the better the numbers will be, but a newish A330 or B777 will be too expensive to convert. Why convert a relatively new aircraft, when you might as well buy factory fresh at almost the same cost?

The A330-200F will, eventually, relegate the B767-300ERF just as the passenger model did. An A330-200F can take full payload across the Atlantic, or from Continental US go deep south. It could also do Europe-Africa, or Europe-Middle East at or near max. payload, and do so a lot cheaper than a DC/MD-10. On Trans-Pacific runs it won't work though; simply haven't got the legs. It's got a lot going for it, and paired with the B777F offers a very attractive prospect for integrators.

The A330-300P2F will deliver volumes very close to that of a 777-200SF, and as we've seen on the passenger side, unless you really need the range a B772ER offers, it's more profitable to use an A333. I suspect the same will be true if and when the two models are being offered for conversion, and therefore my bet is the A333 will see higher demand. In either case, it'll be very interesting to see actual numbers once both aircraft are being offered.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30922 posts, RR: 87
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5891 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
As you say the conversions will have a hard time reaching the factory standard.


Boeing is projecting ~70t for the 777-200 and ~80t for the 777-200ER in Boeing Converted Freighter form.

Airbus is projecting 50-60t for the A330-300P2F conversion, so an A330-200P2F would probably be around the lower end of that, I would think.


Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
In particular one must wonder if A330 conversions can have the nose gear changes needed for it to be level on the ground.


At the moment, the talk is just jacking up the front of the plane during loading and unloading.


User currently offlinenightflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 95 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5860 times:

I've been hearing rumors that FedEx is looking at the 767 and 777P2F's. I don't know if the 767's would be new freighters or converted ones. Personally, I'd much rather fly the 767 over any Airbus.

User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2744 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5813 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 12):
It stands to reason that a future conversion program was not a priority when Boeing designed the 777, for very good - at the time - reasons. Neither did Boeing envision that they'd ever offer a procduction freighter.

I hate to have to disagree with some who's posts I truly appreciate, but this is actually completely untrue.

Boeing, in fact, did specifically design the 777, both with a production freighter in mind as well as a future conversion program. The original idea was to base the 777 Freighter off the -200ER, of course, as the -200LR had not been envisioned yet. The original 777F would have been much closer to the MD-11F as far as payload/range (only slightly more than the trijet, while the actual 777F is obviously much more capable) with the same volume difference as today's frame which we all know. Somewhere around here I even have some concept art and diagrams from Boeing, showing the 777-200ERFX.

In addition, Boeing has been discussing a potential 777BCF off and on for a number of years now. About 2 years ago it was supposed to get the go-ahead, and Flightglobal ran a great article on it. I can't seem to find it now, but I know Stitch linked to it recently, so it's out there. Both a 777-200BCF and a 777-200ERBCF were planned, with Boeing stating that they will let the market decide which will be launched first. The delays to both the A380 (first) and 787 have subsequently been putting those plans on hold, as used 777's have just not been available. And when they are (ie SQ), airlines are buying them up for passenger duty very quickly.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 7):
For a replacement of the MD-10, cast your eyes Toulouse way at the A330-200F and you've found the obvious answer.

I would actually doubt a new-build A330-200F at FX. Instead, I would very much expect a A330-300P2F at FX as an MD-10 replacement, or possibly the aforementioned 777BCF.


Regards,

Hamlet69   



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30922 posts, RR: 87
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5650 times:
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Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 18):
I would actually doubt a new-build A330-200F at FX. Instead, I would very much expect a A330-300P2F at FX as an MD-10 replacement, or possibly the aforementioned 777BCF.

Last year FedEx chief executive David Bronczek called the 777 "a perfect plane for us as a production freighter and as a converted freighter" and said the carrier is very interested in the 777-200 as a DC-10-10 replacement and the 777-200ER as a DC-10-30 replacement.

Now over the past 12 months FX has shed their DC-10 fleet, but they still have plenty of MD-10-10s and MD-10-30s that could use replacing with 777BCFs.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12468 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5466 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 15):
To start from the back, I believe it will be necessary to do something to raise the nose-gear, but don't think it'll be the solution engineered for the -200F, and neither does Airbus.

Airbus is lowering the nose gear attachment points for the A330-200F:

Quote:
To overcome the standard A330's nose-down body angle on the ground, the A330F uses a revised nose landing gear layout. The same A330-200 leg is used, however its attachment points are lower in the fuselage, requiring a distinctive blister fairing on the nose to accommodate the retracted nose-gear. This provides a level deck for cargo loading.[12]



Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A330

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 15):
As for buying new vs. used and converted, that very much depends on how the aircraft will be used. Buying new B777s can be justified as long as they're employed on long-haul routes, resulting in very high daily utilisation hours. However, for shorter routes, the aircraft of all the integrators spends far more time sitting on the ground than they do flying; it's the nature of the business. That's one of the reason why both DHL and FedEx went for used and converted 757s, instead of accepting Airbus' offer to develop and produce brand new A320/321s.

I agree, but note UPS uses factory-new 757s and 767s and I think they sit for a similar amount of time as does the FX planes, no?

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 15):
The A330-200F will, eventually, relegate the B767-300ERF just as the passenger model did

I agree, but don't think it will hurt the 777F or conversions much if at all.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 15):
The A330-300P2F will deliver volumes very close to that of a 777-200SF, and as we've seen on the passenger side, unless you really need the range a B772ER offers, it's more profitable to use an A333. I suspect the same will be true if and when the two models are being offered for conversion, and therefore my bet is the A333 will see higher demand. In either case, it'll be very interesting to see actual numbers once both aircraft are being offered.

The numbers above show the 777 offering 27 main deck pallets to A330-200's 22, and the 777s being a foot or two taller depending on position. I know the A330-300 conversions should come closer to the 777 but the additional weight will cut in to the range of the A330-300s, especially the older ones.

In the case of FX one must wonder if adding the A330 as a new fleet member would be worth the maintenance, training and schdeduling hassles.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
At the moment, the talk is just jacking up the front of the plane during loading and unloading.

Warning: I know nothing of how freighers are loaded or unloaded, but...

I don't see how the A330 could carry its own jacks around because they'd weigh so much and be pretty bulky and would need to be offloaded first before the rest of the plane was unloaded and reloaded last once the plane is reloaded.

I suppose I could picture some sort of portable jacks mounted to the front of a small service truck that could be driven into position and would be pre-configured to use some jack points that Airbus could build into the P2F conversion. The service truck could also provide the pnuematics needed to drive the jacks. But it's one more expensive one-off machine for the customers to position every where a A330 P2F needs to land.

I suppose a simpler idea would be to have non-portable ramps in dedicated A330 P2F bays, but who wants to have dedicated bays, especially at the out stations?

Or perhaps some portable ramps that could be moved into position when an A330 P2f is going to be used, but again, one more thing to buy in significant numbers and to maintain.

All in all I don't see an attractive solution, but again, I'm clueless about how this is actually done.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):

Now over the past 12 months FX has shed their DC-10 fleet, but they still have plenty of MD-10-10s and MD-10-30s that could use replacing with 777BCFs.

What's the expected lifetime projections for the remaining MD-10s?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30922 posts, RR: 87
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5455 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 20):
I don't see how the A330 could carry its own jacks around because they'd weigh so much and be pretty bulky and would need to be offloaded first before the rest of the plane was unloaded and reloaded last once the plane is reloaded.

The jacks would be located at the cargo facilities the A330s (and A340s, if they also undergo P2F conversions) would operate out of, so they would be part of the facility infrastructure and not something carried aboard the planes themselves.


User currently offlinefdxgirl From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 74 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5167 times:

i haven't heard anything about A330's. last i heard, the A310-324's are to be replacing the 727 routes. it seems FedEx is happy with the 777 and 757 airframe and fuel efficiency. glad to see more boeings joining the fleet.  

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13040 posts, RR: 100
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4927 times:
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Quoting relaxitsfedex7 (Thread starter):
and buy 2 more from other sources.

Curious, who is the seller of the '2 more?' AF?

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 7):
I'd be surprised if the FedEx 777F does not eventually replace all their MD-11s;

As others have noted, I would be surprised if 77EBCF's weren't the MD-11 replacement.

Possibly some 'effectively replaced' by A330F's.

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 18):
as used 777's have just not been available. And when they are (ie SQ), airlines are buying them up for passenger duty very quickly.

I'm pleasantly impressed at how well the 777 resale value has held up. (I expected it to be worse now than it is.) I personally expected to see 777BCF (or 77EBCF) engineering in full swing for a 2011 or 2012 EIS by now. Instead, the program seems to be in a perpetual "we'll start next year" mode.

The 757 conversion program had to wait until 757 resale values dropped. (Rumors are Fedex will not pay over $8 million. Conversion is $6 to $6.5 million.) I wonder what price makes it worthwhile to sell off the MD-10 freighters and replace them with converted 772's/77E's.

Does anyone know the MD-10/MD-11 utilization in FedEx's fleet (cyles and fligth hours per year)? The higher the utilization, the more advantage to switching to a new type. I would expect variability within the fleet...

It is interesting that 15 FedEx 777F orders remain conditional on the final version of the congressional legislation...

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineSean-SAN- From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 769 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4764 times:

I'm waiting for FX to start MEM-HNL on the 777.. the MD11 is too hard to catch a ride on with only one jumpseat!

25 N328KF : Is FedEx using overhead crew rests on the 777-200F?
26 nightflyer : N328KF, No the crew rest is behind the cockpit on the left side.
27 wrenchon727 : I think a 777-200ERBCF is in Fedex's future to replace the 17 MD10-30's and some of the 59 Md11's they have. Airbus had the A330-200F in MEM about a m
28 B777LRF : Hamlet One can only run with the information given, and the information I was given came from the very senior engineer we had attached to the program
29 sunrisevalley : Are you sure about the loss of volume? Boeing show two Main deck layouts, one with 27 96x125 and the other with 11-96 x 238.5 and 5- 96x125 .Assuming
30 Post contains images Hamlet69 : Not at all. And keep in mind that even the information I have from Boeing was for a 'future variant.' In other words, though the engineers had the fr
31 relaxitsfedex7 : I hear that they are leaning towards 767's For Replacing the a310 series. Though its just a rumor I hear in the hub at this point.[Edited 2010-05-13 1
32 Post contains images Hamlet69 : If they do, I pray they will also get winglets. A wingletted 767F in FX colors? That would be an amazing sight!! Regards, Hamlet69
33 pink77W : I wonder how much sales the 767 will pick up with winglets if any. i hope Fedex orders a ton of 77Fs and 76Fs
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