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Has The A380 Resulted In Fewer Flights?  
User currently offlinepeh From Australia, joined Nov 2006, 340 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6791 times:

Air France Director, Pierre-Henri Gourgeon, went on the record last year and confirmed what most already knew - the A380 will result in fewer flights to long-haul destinations.

I was wondering if any of the A380 operators have begun cutting back flights on A380 routes????

OR

Are these operators attracting more passengers through the use of the A380 and, therefore, maintaining the number of flights???

OR

[insert your comment here]


Flown: ATR72, DASH 8, 737, 747, 767, 777, A300, A320, A321, A330, A340, MD80
30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6756 times:

There are cases in Europe where the A380 is resulting in fewer flights. For example, the A380 has allowed SQ to increase capacity at LHR without adding extra SIN flights for which it would face difficulty obtaining slots.
Another example is at MAN where EK's A380 (which enters the DXB route in September) has allowed EK to boost capacity without having to add a third daily flight.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4398 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6758 times:

SQ has replaced 10 weekly 77W to Paris by 7 A380, and just now 12 77W to Zurich by 7 A380, so the answer is a clear yes.

User currently offlinepeh From Australia, joined Nov 2006, 340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6711 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 2):
so the answer is a clear yes.

Thanks. Great examples.

So, I guess it's good news for airlines and bad news for consumers? At least from a Y perspective, where the feedback suggests the A380 is like every other plane. I know I'd rather the option of an extra flight... but that's just me.



Flown: ATR72, DASH 8, 737, 747, 767, 777, A300, A320, A321, A330, A340, MD80
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 6589 times:

Quoting peh (Reply 3):
So, I guess it's good news for airlines and bad news for consumers?

Bad news if you are an American consumer, but contrary to what many on here seem to believe, the rest of us do not regard frequency as the most important selling point when choosing flights. Its far less important in Europe and Asia than it is in the USA. That neatly encapsulates why you will never, ever see a pax A380 with an N-rego.

Quoting peh (Reply 3):
At least from a Y perspective, where the feedback suggests the A380 is like every other plane. I know I'd rather the option of an extra flight... but that's just me.

I've been on SQ's six times, EKs twice, QF's once and have a JFK run on AF's coming up in December. I'm as experienced an A380 flyer as you are likely to find, and I can report that you are dead wrong. It is not at all like other planes - sure the hard and soft product is the same, for example on SQ's 77Ws as on their A388s, but the flight experience is completely different.

Put it this way - The first time i went on an A380 i was surprised to see upon looking out the window that we'd not only pushed back without me noticing, but had started one, two, three and four, and were rolling down the taxiway to November one one! It really is that quiet. I had absolutely no idea.

You know you've pushed and you certainly know you've started up (as if you can miss it on a 77W - its deafening in the cheap seats) on any other plane.

But that's on the ground. In flight she flies like she's on rails. NOTHING is smoother. Cabin airflow and engine noise is just jawdroppingly low - its like being in a room with a large air conditioner turned on. No louder than that. The cabin air feels fresher and doesnt dry you out as much as on other planes.

Trust me, its very different.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4398 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 6394 times:

From Europe there are some time slots for long range flights that are the only that make sense. Every traffic to SE Asia goes out in the evening in the hours before airports close - like all TATL flying from NA goes out in the evening. So two flights don't bring an advantage when they just are an hour apart. Early morning to Asia would only fill a Gulf V.

User currently offlinepeh From Australia, joined Nov 2006, 340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6333 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 4):
I can report that you are dead wrong

It wasn't my opinion but rather a summary of dozens of reviews and conversations from regular punters. Not all passengers are aviation nuts. Sure, they notice that it's quieter but what they seem to be looking for are the pool tables, bowling alleys, casinos and libraries seen in the mock-ups.

OK, I'm being facetious but I'm sure you get my point.

I also get yours. You've flown on the A380 a lot. Good for you.

[Edited 2010-05-11 04:36:04]


Flown: ATR72, DASH 8, 737, 747, 767, 777, A300, A320, A321, A330, A340, MD80
User currently offlinecv990Coronado From South Africa, joined Nov 2007, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6281 times:
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It has to JNB with AF they have taken 10x 777 to 7 x 380 per week. The frequency isn't a big issue as both flights would have departed JNB with 3 hours of each other. AF have retained the earlier departure time (1930) from JNB the later 2300 wasn't so popular as it was very late and didn’t provide such good onward connections from CDG.


SSC-707B727 737-741234SP757/762/3/772/WA300/10/319/2/1-342/3/6-880-DAM-VC10 TRD 111 Ju52-DC8/9/10/11-YS11-748-VCV DH4B L
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6249 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 4):
Put it this way - The first time i went on an A380 i was surprised to see upon looking out the window that we'd not only pushed back without me noticing, but had started one, two, three and four, and were rolling down the taxiway to November one one! It really is that quiet. I had absolutely no idea.

Does it make a difference if you're on the upper or lower deck?



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4398 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6217 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 8):
Does it make a difference if you're on the upper or lower deck?

I thought those on the lower deck are put into chains and have to pull the aircraft back...


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6153 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 4):
Bad news if you are an American consumer, but contrary to what many on here seem to believe, the rest of us do not regard frequency as the most important selling point when choosing flights.

A quick glance at the top 20 most frequent routes in the world suggests America is far from unique. There's simply just more people in other regions so they can justify larger aircraft even with higher frequencies.

On a lot of the routes mentioned though (SIN-CDG, SIN-ZRH, CDG-JNB) the flight times are so long frequencies beyond daily give little competitive advantage. And in fact, a daily service is normally better than irregular, sub-daily 2nd flights spread across the week.


User currently offlineMartynS From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6091 times:

Hi,

I flew on both lower and upper decks with SQ last month in Y and found both to be quiet.

Only slight gripe was that the "window" seat on the upper deck in the first row (next to the door)
involved me having to twist round in my seat to see out of the window behind the seat.
However the extra leg-room was appreciated - you can't have everything I guess  

Martyn



Flown with BR (BCal), KL, AA, BA, AF, NW, DL, PR, EK, SQ, HM, BY, GO, UA, U2, BD, LH, KM, 5J
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31060 posts, RR: 87
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5742 times:
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Quoting RJ111 (Reply 10):
On a lot of the routes mentioned though (SIN-CDG, SIN-ZRH, CDG-JNB) the flight times are so long frequencies beyond daily give little competitive advantage.

  

The A380 will have her heaviest impact on EU-Asia and EU-Australia routes. TATL from western EU countries to the eastern seaboard of North America will probably still be dominated by frequency, though the A380 is beneficial where slots do not allow sufficient daily services (such as EK's current services to Canada which are doing better now that EK can offer more seats on the frequencies they can operate). The A380 will also work for flights from the EU to the western US, where the flight times are longer.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4398 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5694 times:

... and on all long range routes that offer enough demand so that you can profit from the 19% better CASM compared to the 77W, which again beats all others according to a.net legends.

User currently offlineJaws707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 708 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5629 times:

I think when an airline is able to reduce 10 weekly 777 flights into daily A380 flights that is a wonderful thing for many reasons. The airline should be able to make more money, as less aircraft, fuel, personnel, maintenance are required for 7 flights opposed to 10; there is less congestion at the airport and fewer flights frees up some slots; and less flights are better for the environment.
I've never flown on an A380, but based on reviews people seem to like flying on the aircraft, and through fewer flights it seems to help everyone from airlines to airports to the environment, so hopefully Airbus can sell many, many more of them.


User currently offlinegr8circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3107 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5353 times:

Quoting peh (Reply 6):
It wasn't my opinion but rather a summary of dozens of reviews and conversations from regular punters. Not all passengers are aviation nuts. Sure, they notice that it's quieter but what they seem to be looking for are the pool tables, bowling alleys, casinos and libraries seen in the mock-ups.

OK, I'm being facetious but I'm sure you get my point.

The comments provided by CHRISBA777ER are absolutely believable and make me want to fly on the A380 even more....  .....I know you're probably joking when you talk about the pool tables and bowling alleys, but those are certainly not the things that passengers look for or judge a plane by....most passengers who've flown on the 777, 747, A330/340, etc. just see that the A380 is another widebody plane with 10 seats across and similar amount of legroom, etc.....that's all they judge the plane by.....I doubt if too many passengers notice the finer aspects oulined by CHRISBA777ER, above....


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4875 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 4):
But that's on the ground. In flight she flies like she's on rails. NOTHING is smoother. Cabin airflow and engine noise is just jawdroppingly low - its like being in a room with a large air conditioner turned on. No louder than that. The cabin air feels fresher and doesnt dry you out as much as on other planes.

A friend of mine who flew A380 recently had a similar reaction. I hope to fly A380 to Australia next year, and maybe B748 en route to India on LAX-FRA with LH when in service.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25459 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4866 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 4):
Trust me, its very different.

The question is -- how many Y class passengers will be awaqre of any of those differences, and even if they are, how many will choose an A380 if another carrier operating a different type on the same route is $10 cheaper? Price is still the most important factor for most Y class passengers. Few travel often enough to be aware of differences between aircraft, which is also why certain carriers are able to get away with things like 10-abreast 777s.

Quoting Jaws707 (Reply 14):
when an airline is able to reduce 10 weekly 777 flights into daily A380 flights that is a wonderful thing for many reasons. The airline should be able to make more money, as less aircraft, fuel, personnel, maintenance are required for 7 flights opposed to 10

Looking only at fuel, is it really correct that 7 A380s, for exxample on SQ''s ZRH-SIN-ZRH route, burn less fuel than 10 77Ws?


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4741 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 4):
Trust me, its very different.

The question is -- how many Y class passengers will be awaqre of any of those differences, and even if they are, how many will choose an A380 if another carrier operating a different type on the same route is $10 cheaper? Price is still the most important factor for most Y class passengers. Few travel often enough to be aware of differences between aircraft, which is also why certain carriers are able to get away with things like 10-abreast 777s.

I wondered this as well.

My reaction is that passengers fly on the A380 and enjoy it enough to conciousless notice - and then equate the positive experience with SQ/QF/EK etc rather than the plane itself in perhaps 50% of the cases, with the other 50% equating it (correctly) to the plane itself.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31060 posts, RR: 87
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4641 times:
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Having flown the A380, and finding it a great experience, I admit I look for it when I can and the price delta is not too bad.

And I do think people will hear about what a nice experience it is and try it out when and where they can.

But I also believe people won't turn around at the airport and go home if they find their flight is not operated by an A380.

And while said folks have been cagey about how they phrase it so they can claim "plausible deniability", I believe some people are effectively stating just such a scenario is possible if an airline doesn't fly the A380.  


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4541 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
And while said folks have been cagey about how they phrase it so they can claim "plausible deniability", I believe some people are effectively stating just such a scenario is possible if an airline doesn't fly the A380.

Not from me, buddy.  

A 77W or A346 from a decent airline (say, EK, EY, AF, QR, SQ, 9W etc) has very little difference the hard product offering that people REALLY notice, and of course you dont get better service on an SQ A380 than on their 77Ws!

Suggesting that people will not fly an airline because it does not fly A380s is daft. I'm as big an A380 fan as you'll find, and (i just noticed this the other week) - 75%+ of my long-haul flights in the last five years have been 777, and the vast majority of those have been 77W.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offline9V-SVC From Singapore, joined Oct 2001, 1797 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4523 times:

Quoting peh (Reply 6):
t wasn't my opinion but rather a summary of dozens of reviews and conversations from regular punters. Not all passengers are aviation nuts. Sure, they notice that it's quieter but what they seem to be looking for are the pool tables, bowling alleys, casinos and libraries seen in the mock-ups.

It does make a difference, aviation or not, people will notice, hey this plane is spacious, quieter than the (777 or 747s) , people are excited about flying the A380 because of the publicity and the fact its the biggest commercial airliner in the world. The fact also that it has 4 engines instead of 2 (777) helps to ease the nervous flyers.



Airliners is the wings of my life.
User currently offlineDecromin From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2008, 80 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4321 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
But I also believe people won't turn around at the airport and go home if they find their flight is not operated by an A380.

True, but many people are choosing to change their flights, and in some cases paying more for the A380 where it is available. My parents, who would struggle to figure out which end of the plane is the front sometimes, moved their flight from SYD-SIN forward a day to ensure they were on the 380. They are travelling to LHR later this year, and have already called the airlines to find out how to ensure a 380 service once again. I do not believe that they are atypical in the market - people get interested by new and shiny, but they come back if the product offers something (real OR perceived) that stands it out from the rest of the market.


User currently offlineChinook747 From Canada, joined Mar 2007, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4131 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 20):
A 77W or A346 from a decent airline (say, EK, EY, AF, QR, SQ, 9W etc) has very little difference the hard product offering that people REALLY notice, and of course you dont get better service on an SQ A380 than on their 77Ws!

have to agree with this comment above. I am probably one of the few out there that did not like flying on the A380 and found my experiences on both a 747 and 777 much more comfortable. I like the styling of Boeings overhead bins much better than the A380 and I found my seat on the A380 very uncomfortable.


User currently offlinerheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2241 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3402 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
Looking only at fuel, is it really correct that 7 A380s, for exxample on SQ''s ZRH-SIN-ZRH route, burn less fuel than 10 77Ws?

It should because fuel flow per pax of the A380 should be lower. And overall capacity is about the same.
A380 21% More Economical P.seat Than 77W (by NA Jun 27 2009 in Civil Aviation)


25 goldorak : to JFK, AF has also suppressed one frequency this last winter with the introduction of the A380 (same capacity as offered before with 1 A343 and 1 B77
26 zeke : I think frequency is also important for Asian airlines as well, but once you have a frequency that works, often it is better to expand on a frequency
27 LondonCity : This scenario is mainly seen within the Asia/Australasian region with carriers like SQ and QF whose A380 business classes are superior to the product
28 airbazar : I think in due time we will see a decent amount of A380 operations between Western Europe and Eastern US. Why? To improve aircraft utilization. You m
29 cobra27 : Frequency for average traveller is not really important. Maybe it is in America. Many travellers will arange their travel around flight dates not the
30 Burkhard : First, even Y passengers know if the fly A380 or an old small narrow loud other aircraft. And given the 21% better economics, or 19% as other sources
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