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Afriqiyah Airways Crash Landing In Tripoli, Libya #2  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 68015 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Please feel free to continue your discussion in the continuation thread. Part 1 can be found here:

BREAKING: Crash Landing In Tripoli, Libya




Rgds

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
201 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 68121 times:

Damn....pilot error? wind shear?


Our Returning Champion
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6844 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 68168 times:

From Previous thread:

Quoting TravelAVNut (Reply 224):
Pardon my ignorance, but where would one find an old and very poorly maintained old A330?

Does my flag give a hint?   

Quoting LY777 (Reply 221):
Theses crashes were due to human errors

To which this one could be another one... but on the 330 instead.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 220):
Quite likely based on what very little we can see of the debris pattern. Especially the tail structure being relatively intact contributed to that possibility.

Botched go-around anyone?



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlinetrigged From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 67831 times:

From previous thread...

Quote:
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 193):
No post impact fire happens a lot more often than most people thing. I have seen four aircraft crash in my lifetime - and two of them had no fire. Both had plenty of fuel on board when they crashed.

I think your assessment that the crash impact reduced the density of the remaining fuel to below sustainable levels of combustion is correct.

Exactly. Jet A is actually hard to ignite. Usually the pressurization from impact, large amounts of electrical energy from broken wiring, or the pouring of vast amounts of fuel through the engine(s) could cause the fire. Smacking into a dirt field at a relatively slow velocity would probably just break the tanks open and dump it all over the place. As said before, the dust/dirt may have acted as a fire extinguishing agent as well. For combustion to occur, the fuel and air mixture needs to be correct and for Jet A and the temperature needs to be above ~ 400°F to spontaneously ignite. The fuel to air ratio is such that if the ratio is below 0.0022 lb/ft^3 in sea level air, is such that no ignition will occur. Too much of either will stop the process, hence the debunking of the silly notion that cell phones cause fires at gas stations.


User currently offlineTravelAVNut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1607 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 67742 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 2):

Quoting TravelAVNut (Reply 224):
Pardon my ignorance, but where would one find an old and very poorly maintained old A330?

Does my flag give a hint?   

Haha thanks! I should´ve known, long time leecher and reader of your contributions  
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 2):

Quoting LY777 (Reply 221):
Theses crashes were due to human errors

To which this one could be another one... but on the 330 instead.

But that would be logical, and logic doesn´t work for everyone   



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1986 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 67579 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 2):
Botched go-around anyone?

With the information available at this point sounds possible... but is hard to believe the aircraft goes down so close to the airport...although the easier way to screw up a go around is a stall condition, looks so close to the airport...
I wonder if this A330 has the same engine type of the CX that suffered a hard landing recently with the engines stuck ? Anybody knows ?

Rgds.

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineAutothrustBlue From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 67504 times:

Quoting LY777 (Reply 203):
I have the same feeling, but only for the A330/A340 family (I think there are no problems with the A32Xs now). Anyway, I always avoid the A330/A340s

   Sounds like a conclusive statement for an accident that just occurred. Do you know something that we don't that would lead to such a statement?

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 2):
Botched go-around anyone?

Maybe by leaving the A/P in OP DES and not monitoring or not pushing the thrust levers into TOGA?



Power set.
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 67461 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 2):
Does my flag give a hint?

Poorly maintained maybe, but old? Or am I missing anything?



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 67374 times:

Quoting LY777 (Reply 221):
Theses crashes were due to human errors

So you're happy to die in a plane crash as long as it's human error?


User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2756 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 67139 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 2):

Thank you for the clarification, I forgot about the backup systems for the Hydraulics.

And I thought you where referring to the MH A330 that was written off a few years ago due to contamination.

MIAspotter.



I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1986 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 67158 times:

Quoting trigged (Reply 3):
Smacking into a dirt field at a relatively slow velocity would probably just break the tanks open and dump it all over the place.

Unless there was an explosion before impact, the debris field suggest a high energy impact to me, so I doubt this could be at a "relatively slow velocity". Maybe they had slow forward speed or slow vertical speed, but not both at the same time.

Rgds.

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinetom355uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 336 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 66984 times:

Maybe in Indonesia?    (Based purely on your location, Mandala   )

Anyway, I wasn't aware that the VS/FPA issue had been rectified to that order, so thanks. At least we have the CVR and FDR for this A330 accident.

[Edited 2010-05-12 11:10:15 by srbmod]


on Twitter @tombeckett2285
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6844 posts, RR: 75
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 66834 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 7):
Poorly maintained maybe, but old? Or am I missing anything?

Well, not really old, but they're MSN 200 - 350 and they're A330-200s...   

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 5):
I wonder if this A330 has the same engine type of the CX that suffered a hard landing recently with the engines stuck ?

CX A330s are RR powered... Afriqiyah's 330s are not.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 5):
although the easier way to screw up a go around is a stall condition, looks so close to the airport...

Well, under normal mode, you can't stall the damn plane... well, you can crash it though...
Or not go to TOGA and pull the plane up... it won't stall, but it'll just follow the path just nearing stall... ie: a very badly botched G/A turned to a CFIT on relatively flat ground (silly as it sounds, but these "stupid" cases have happened in the training sims... with guys transitioning to the Bus and cannot be bothered to read the FCOMs).

Quoting AutothrustBlue (Reply 6):
Maybe by leaving the A/P in OP DES and not monitoring or not pushing the thrust levers into TOGA?

OP DES? Were they approaching 09 or 27?
If they were on 27, OP DES wouldn't make them end up where they were (near 09) unless they were waaay too high and someone needed to go to the toilet very quickly (unlikely if the assumptions of 27 appr and ended up in 09 are true).
If they were on 09... they were so far off the centerline for where they were that OP DES wouldn't be the factor causing the crash... if the plane fell short say 3-5km prior to the runway from a hot and high descent, then, we can talk OP DES... otherwise, unlikely.

They mystery remains, how did they end up off centerline... If it was a botched go-around, how the heck did it end up where it was... shove the throttles to TOGA and pull on the stick without retracting landing gear or the flaps to go-around flaps (ie: a stupid G/A) wouldn't put the plane where it was thanks to envelope protection... unless there's a problem with the plane we have not heard about...



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineLonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4929 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 66392 times:

Just a thought.

Several reports indicate they were landing "from the east", if that were the case, then they were landing west. In other words, ILS 27.

If a missed approach were performed, and some problem occurred during the missed approach, then they might well end where they did, on the other end of the runway ... the threshold of 09. A stall, or an engine failure would cause the low speed, low energy type pattern the wreckage appears to indicate.

A lightly loaded A330, with go-around thrust can be a bit of a bear to handle!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineAeolus From Mexico, joined Aug 2007, 374 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 66374 times:

Would it have something to do with TK1951? ...might be something involved with autothrottle... stall because of the lack of speed and lift, and crash... just my thoughts, now that I read the AMS crash report.

Anymore news on survivors? I'm trying to catch up. I just saw the Dutch boy survived. Hope there are more. R.I.P. to those who perished.

-Aeolus



Flying under the clouds above!
User currently offlineAeolus From Mexico, joined Aug 2007, 374 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 66253 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 2):
Botched go-around anyone?

Like AeroUnion A300F in MTY? Possible.

-Aeolus



Flying under the clouds above!
User currently offlinetrigged From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 66259 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 10):
Maybe they had slow forward speed or slow vertical speed, but not both at the same time.

Yes, I was assuming a slow vertical velocity component. High x axis velocity component with low z axis component would cause the aircraft to shear apart as opposed to a very high g loading from a high vertical (z axis) component. Hit a cheese grater normal to the surface plane, then hit it at parallel to the surface plane, I think you have the same effect as what happened to the aircraft here. Look at the tail section, it is torn apart quite heavily on the bottom surface heading upwards.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1986 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 66147 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 12):
CX A330s are RR powered... Afriqiyah's 330s are not

Thank you. Although now I'm thinking a little more about the subject, and maybe the engines being stuck in the CX jet has nothing to do with the engine type ? Could be this problem come from the cockpit's hardware or software and be a factor in the Afriqiyah crash ?

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 12):
unless there's a problem with the plane we have not heard about...

If ( IF ) my previous questions in this post have a YES for an answer, what do you think about a Go Around well performed by the crew but when they hit TO/GA button the engines remained stuck at a low power ratio ?

Rgds.

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinennomad From Portugal, joined Feb 2009, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 65850 times:

Quoting Longhauler (Reply 13):
If a missed approach were performed, and some problem occurred during the missed approach, then they might well end where they did, on the other end of the runway ... the threshold of 09. A stall, or an engine failure would cause the low speed, low energy type pattern the wreckage appears to indicate.

True... and makes perfect sense if you ignore the fact that the intact tail points to the opposite direction............



don't expect too much from the world's end
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 65763 times:

Quoting Longhauler (Reply 13):
If a missed approach were performed, and some problem occurred during the missed approach, then they might well end where they did, on the other end of the runway ...

That is my assumption also. There is no reason for the aircraft to be that far south if landing on Rwy 09. But Rwy 27 and a problem on go-around.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 12):
under normal mode, you can't stall the damn plane... well, you can crash it though...
Or not go to TOGA and pull the plane up... it won't stall, but it'll just follow the path just nearing stall... ie: a very badly botched G/A turned to a CFIT on relatively flat ground

Possibly, missing steps in the TOGA procedure?

I don't thing the destruction shows a stall and crash from low altitude. But a powered CFIT would more likely give the amount of damage.

Quoting trigged (Reply 3):
I think your assessment that the crash impact reduced the density of the remaining fuel to below sustainable levels of combustion is correct.

Exactly. Jet A is actually hard to ignite.

I see what looks like small amounts of charring in some of the photos. Possibly a few small fires, but the fuel spread out to much to sustain a large fire. Also the reports of a burned vehicle indicate there was some fire. Just not a huge fireball and sustained burn.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6601 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 65691 times:

Quoting Longhauler (Reply 13):
If a missed approach were performed, and some problem occurred during the missed approach, then they might well end where they did, on the other end of the runway ... the threshold of 09. A stall, or an engine failure would cause the low speed, low energy type pattern the wreckage appears to indicate.

Low energy pattern, are we seeing the same footage ?

Quoting Aeolus (Reply 14):
Would it have something to do with TK1951? ...might be something involved with autothrottle... stall because of the lack of speed and lift, and crash... just my thoughts, now that I read the AMS crash report.

I don't think a FBW airbus can stall like that. If it's a CFIT, it's above stall speed.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 65580 times:

Quoting nnomad (Reply 18):
True... and makes perfect sense if you ignore the fact that the intact tail points to the opposite direction............

The tail appears to have broken off and somersaulted - so the final angle where it came to rest isn't indicative of the aircraft course.

What we really need though is an aerial photo showing the debris path and impact points.

Everything is just educated guesswork until we see those images, or a reliable official report.


User currently offlinennomad From Portugal, joined Feb 2009, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 65559 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
I don't think a FBW airbus can stall like that. If it's a CFIT, it's above stall speed.

Unless its not on Normal Law................



don't expect too much from the world's end
User currently offlineCityhopperNL From Netherlands, joined Feb 2009, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 65503 times:

there are several sources that confirm that winds have been west all day today, i.e.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/...y=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

http://weather.noaa.gov/weather/current/HLLT.html

if you ask me, absolutely no way this airplane approached TIP from the west, this must have been a runway 27 approach


User currently offlinennomad From Portugal, joined Feb 2009, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 65406 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 21):
The tail appears to have broken off and somersaulted - so the final angle where it came to rest isn't indicative of the aircraft course.

I dont agree..

again..if you look close the elevators are intact with the rudder....they look like they impacted and remained exactly on that spot...no spinning or tail flying around..



don't expect too much from the world's end
25 Aesma : Sure but this not being a test flight, the alternate law would then be caused by a serious failure, so the stall would only be part of the story.[Edi
26 CityhopperNL : it makes even more sense if you see that the tail is pointing west as well, i will try to post an analysis of this later on, but to me it looks like
27 Post contains links oly720man : http://www.rnw.nl/africa/article/afr...crashes-libya-dutch-child-survives At the end of the video here you can see what looks like a LN CRJ900 departi
28 PGNCS : How about this: nobody knows what happened yet, least of all anyone who is posting on this site. Let's let the professionals have a crack at this firs
29 nnomad : In the event of a go-around the transition from flight mode occurs at 50' RA (same applies to landings) ...and you can stall a bus in Alternate Law..
30 Post contains links rfields5421 : http://www.foxnews.com/slideshow/wor...ipoli-dutch-boy-survivor/#slide=10 ?? - No marks of dragging or decelleration. That implies the tail was not co
31 babybus : This is terrible news. Telling from the photos the plane was either just in or just out of the airport perimetre fence as can be seen by the sentry bo
32 Post contains images A342 : After much confusion, now I know which ones you're talking about. C/N 205, 211 and 330 by chance?
33 Post contains images einsteinboricua : Poor kid...it's even worse if his parents were on the flight. Being orphaned at 8.
34 A340ANDRE : My wife and I departed from JNB on SA260 to FRA last night. We departed from Gate 11 and after push back we were standing still for about 10 minutes.
35 rfields5421 : Parents and two siblings were on the flight according to reports I've seen so far.
36 CityhopperNL : Fantastic, this is evidence that the crash site is indeed not short of the active runway, but on the wrong side of it, it clearly shows the Bombardie
37 Post contains links oly720man : http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2...europe-connection/?test=latestnews According to Dutch sources the pilot radio-ed ahead to have ambulances ready
38 Post contains images tom355uk : The active runway can change several times a day depending on the prevalent wind conditions at the time. I have known the active runway at my local a
39 CityhopperNL : correct, but wind conditions have not changed an awful lot today according to several sources, but you are right, it is not strictly proof, but defin
40 rfields5421 : True, but the weather reports show the winds have been steady from the west all day long. And Lybia doesn't have the NIMBY noise restrictions of the
41 mandala499 : The A330 has a different autothrust systems architecture from the 737NG. How about spatial disorientation during the go-around (SpatDis seems to be t
42 LASoctoberB6 : That must be a very weird feeling...
43 rfields5421 : I don't know, but all it takes is a fairly good cell phone network near the airport and someone willing to try it close to landing. It is not technol
44 vietcolin : In my view, the aircraft is almost new its just 7 months old. I do not think there's technical issue as JNB confirm departure status was ok Second, ot
45 YULWinterSkies : From previous thread, reply 130 from FlySSC: 'Afriqiyah has organised TIP as a HUB and offers several connections beween Europe and Africa (mostly Wes
46 SeeTheWorld : How about comments like this stop, which we see every single time we're all having a discussion of possible reasons why a plane crashed. I find these
47 Braniff722 : Like many of you, I find that the utter destruction of this aircraft is mind boggling. I looks like the plane stalled from 2,000 feet and just nosed i
48 allegro : Terrible NEWS! So very sad, for everyone involved ... especially the Dutch who lost 60 people. Condolences to all. Thanks for you VERY informative pos
49 Post contains images tom355uk : I'm not disagreeing, but I am a little unsure that such an advanced aircraft as the A330, even flown pretty incompetently would crash beyond the end
50 Aesma : If the plane impacted flat and wheels down, the tail may have separated immediately, a fraction of a second before the fuselage would disintegrate (ma
51 CityhopperNL : yes you are absolutely right, i have thought about this, but it might even explain why the plane is 200m off the centreline, which would be pretty mu
52 offloaded : Quite unlikely, unless very discretely done. Pax entering TIP are reminded that photography is strictly forbidden.
53 Aesma : It seems there was a French woman on-board, attracted by the low fare. I can understand this, seeing that they seem to be very low, too low to be true
54 spacecadet : Yes, it's a public forum - this is to be expected. You're free to not participate. I would honestly doubt that an eight year old is going to have tha
55 Airportugal310 : Well, just seeing that there were only 104? people onboard that aircraft on a long-haul flight might mean that they were selling em cheap just to get
56 Braniff722 : You must not have kids. You're not giving this kid much credit. He might know or tell more than you think. I have a 9 year old that has a unique way
57 TK787 : How about comments like this stop, which we see every single time we're all having a discussion of possible reasons why a plane crashed. I find these
58 SeeTheWorld : Your quote of me suggests that I made the original comment. I did not ... I made the following comment in response: "How about comments like this sto
59 airtechy : If you've ever been involved in a terrible car/plane/motorcycle crash you will be lucky to remember anything...even if you were unhurt. The brain has
60 zeke : Without drawing a conclusion out of turn from the HK CAD investigators, the Indonesian Ministry of Transport is currently conducting a parallel inves
61 A380Heavy : Two things - Firstly, it seems to be an incredibly large debris field for a crash which occured from a low altitude and, one would assume, at a relati
62 Post contains links AutothrustBlue : If it makes any difference, the kid is reportedly 10 yrs old. http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64B16V20100512 If they were approaching 09, then
63 RB211TriStar : Apologies if this has been posted/stated already. I tried to read every post. From foxnews.com "One passenger wrote on Twitter on approach to the airp
64 Gonzalo : I fully agree. Is very common that even the unhurt passengers of car crashes don't remember nothing of the accident ( and, the average car passenger,
65 Braniff722 : Airtech, that doesn't apply to everyone involved in a crash, traumatic or not. It's a complete and total 50/50 crap shoot on who remembers what, when
66 Post contains links and images oly720man : Looking at the turkish video again (previous thread) http://www.nationalturk.com/en/libya...ootage-of-rescue-workers-425356112 There does seem to be a
67 litz : Note to all the Airbus bashers ... There is a tailfin off that airplane that is still quite firmly attached to its piece of fuselage ... (wasn't AF447
68 Post contains links and images Airport : Huh. Left wing inlet -- could he be referring to the winglet? View Large View MediumPhoto © James Mepsted I know the aircraft stated above is 5A-ONF
69 rfields5421 : As the largest, heaviest piece of debris, the tail structure tumbled forward. We have no confirmed idea if the tail is oriended in the direction of t
70 AirCalSNA : I have a kid, although well past 8 years old at this point. I can't imagine that any child that age would be able to provide any useful information.
71 Post contains images ramzi : Also quite ignorant. One may as well avoid all aircraft. May the victims rest in peace.
72 KL1291 : In respect to your quote and your kid, but maybe this kid remembers immediately after breathrecovery, that the left wing was gone partly at winglet-e
73 spacecadet : No, I don't have kids, but I have an even better perspective on this than you'd think: I was involved in an emergency landing when I was 8 and flying
74 huxrules : I just cant believe how shredded the plane looks. Looks like it was almost at cruising speed. Are there any pictures of fuselage or just pieces? Amazi
75 rfields5421 : Quite a few of the photos show parts of the fuselage. The largest I see looks to be about 10 ft x 10 ft.
76 cloudyapple : How does one crash an aircraft so "comprehensively"? Apart the tail, the rest of the aeroplane is in pieces so small it looks as if it has been throug
77 AutothrustBlue : Looks like my last post got chopped up, so I'll post again AP will disengage when the aircraft is below MDA - 50 feet (MDH - 50) or below 400 ft AGL,
78 rfields5421 : High energy impact. A great many aircraft crashes show this much damage. The JAL aircraft which lost the tail and hit the mountain was moving relativ
79 Post contains images spacecadet : This is what was left of USAir flight 427. It was on final approach when it nosed into the ground. When you're talking about taking tons of metal wit
80 Post contains links AutothrustBlue : Fair use: A Libyan security official told news agency AFP, "It exploded on landing and totally disintegrated." Additionally, Libyan Transport Minister
81 rfields5421 : So far it appears that only one person reported the plane 'exploded on impact'. That was in some of the first reports and has disappeared from most n
82 BalkantoDelta : Hi guys. Lost of speculation I see ( i.e. Winds, Runway in use, Go around etc etc.) I see some people are already analyzing the crash based on the pho
83 AAExecPlat : From what we know at this point, I believe this is likely to be pilot error. Either the pilots made an error on TOGA by not properly executing procedu
84 SeeTheWorld : Actually, US427 was at an altitude of 6,000 feet when it began it's 37 second nosedive ... just to clarify (as opposed to being a few hundred feet of
85 CityhopperNL : As far as I know there is this video on an ill-informed Dutch news website that shows another plane of this airline missing one of the winglets, a wh
86 Post contains images RB211TriStar : Talk about quick speculation. There is no basis for a statement of that magnitude from either direction. Never thought I'd hear a non-american say th
87 BalkantoDelta : I agree with you !
88 dragon6172 : Could be the engine inlet for that matter. The non aviation folk can have lots of names for thinga-ma-jigs and whirly-dos.
89 seabosdca : I think the Yemenis would be very surprised to learn they are in Africa...
90 seabosdca : He might remember that they touched down, or not. He might remember that the wing scraped the runway, or not. He might remember that the plane banked
91 severnaya : NOS (dutch media) and CNN are reporting the survivor is an 8 year old dutch boy (with first name Ruben, clearly a boys' name)
92 aaexecplat : So which of the five continents is Yemen located on?
93 seabosdca : Asia. On your original point, it would be interesting to see accident rates for modernized African carriers vs. carriers in other developing parts of
94 Post contains images Anshuk : Very well said. Yemen is in Asia. The amount of destruction is pretty disconcerting. Its amazing that the little boy survived. I sincerely hope he wa
95 CityhopperNL : I'm a 'Netherlander' but spend roughly 1/3 of my year stateside, both countries have their pros and cons but I think what we should be proud of and c
96 ATA L1011 : So which of the five continents is Yemen located on? Asia, Southwest corner of it.
97 ATA L1011 : I agree, on another note I was just thinking back when China was having crash after crash.
98 rj777 : I was going to say, do we know for sure his parents were on the plane?
99 frigatebird : Dutch tv also showed footage of the boy in hospital. He was obviously just semi-concious, and his injuries are more severe than originally reported:
100 CityhopperNL : Actually Dutch TV NOS just added an eye witness report to the website from a fella named Leo Molenaar, who apparently catched the flight to Brussels t
101 F9Animal : To be honest, I doubt anyone would have the time to really tweet this. I mean, that is really the last thing I would do in any emergency. It sounds l
102 B707forever : This can be absolutely anything from a loss of hydraulics to a bird strike at low altitutde to whatever. But we'll know soon enough. In any case, a te
103 L410Turbolet : Indeed. I can imagine the standard of health care there is mediocre at best. Any plans to medevac him out of that place since he seems to be in stabi
104 Aesma : I'm having trouble finding this thread (on the report), can you help ? With the accident in Toronto we know that the A330/340 series is quite crashwo
105 AR385 : At first, my opinion was that this crash was your typical CFIT. Degree of destruction is irrelevant. I remember the AVIANCA 747 crash at MAD, 1983. T
106 richierich : Holy cow! Glad you made it through that safely. That's the sort of event that could scar you for life from flying! Recognition of traumatic events is
107 cainanuk : Wow. You gleaned all that from a couple hundred posts on an airliner enthusiast website and a few grainy photos? Quick, get your application pack in,
108 frmrCapCadet : Like India the Arabian penninsula is a plate itself, and likewise crashing into the Asian plate.
109 clydenairways : Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 76): How does one crash an aircraft so "comprehensively"? Apart the tail, the rest of the aeroplane is in pieces so small i
110 FlyWhisperjets : Rubbish.....I was in a bad auto accident 25 years ago.....I flew out of the drivers seat and through the passenger door window onto the street......I
111 frigatebird : No reports about that yet. But I'm sure they'll want to get him back to Holland as soon as medically feasable. Not officially confirmed. the total nu
112 Post contains images frigatebird : Dutch tv just reported that two of the boy's relatives will travel to Tripoli tomorrow, to be with him when he wakes up. Sadly, that seems to confirm
113 Post contains links aeroLogan : Looking through the pictures on the BBC and other sites, what struck me as odd was some of the pictures showing the tires, such as Image #5 here http:
114 ruscoe : The fact that a child survived tells me that the crash must have been relatively low speed despite the apparent damage to the aircraft. Nobody survive
115 Post contains links severnaya : New statement from Afriqiyah: The passenger’s nationalities are as follows: 58 Dutch 6 South Africans 2 Libyans 2 Austrians 1 German 1 Zimbabwean 1
116 spacecadet : a) no, he won't remember any of those things. But he may very well remember things that did not happen, just like I remember the engine exploding on
117 LHRspotter : I quite liked his post and don't think it interferes with the investigators in any way. Posts like yours annoy me though. Why read this forum thread
118 Post contains links TK787 : Accident Report For TK 737 In AMS Is Out (by rheinwaldner May 6 2010 in Civil Aviation)
119 B707forever : The only conclusion I have come to thusfar is that the captain and co-captain lost control of this aircraft. The question is why? The tire comment is
120 rfields5421 : Re burst of tyres on impact. The tyre looks deflated to me. Intact but deflated. The plane went down on soft dirt not a hard runway. Re the child and
121 KFlyer : Sorry, I didn't go through all posts. As I understand, they had a go around, first trying to land in 27 and then 9. Sounds similar to the MTY A300F. B
122 Post contains links ltbewr : One has to wonder if there was some kind of mechanical problem here, especially with the alleged call of the pilots to get ambulances ready. Perhaps a
123 KFlyer : From Aviation Safety Network Runway 09 does not have an ILS. Only a Locator approach is available. Also, the Tripoli VOR was NOTAMed unreliable ("INTE
124 KFlyer : PPRune sometimes gives good info.. Some pilots who have flown to TIP tell that the Locators were not functioning sometimes and the ATC ( poor in their
125 SSTsomeday : I don't expect much reliable testimony from the child. He was immersed in a terrifying trauma. Further, it's my experience that when witnesses don't
126 rfields5421 : I think it is generally agreed there are Seven continents - Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Antarctica, Australia and Europe. An argument
127 mandala499 : The tail fin looks like it detached sometime during the impact and tumbled... with the horizontal stabilizers "relatively attached" until the last few
128 Aesma : If you look better the tire look pretty cut. It has an internal structure that would make it appear inflated even if it's not. Thanks, I wonder why t
129 Post contains images ccarter757 : A terrible day in aviation indeed My thoughts and prayers to all of those who lost their lives, and to the young boy in recovering from his injuries a
130 rj777 : The USA will not be involved because it wasn't an American-built or registered aircraft, unless they decide to ask the NTSB for assistance.
131 sancho99504 : I have to be honest, when I saw this on the news and saw the debris field and that the flight was arriving in Libya, my first thought was terrorism.
132 Dan23 : Representatives from the USA may be involved as GE had their CF6-80 engines installed on the aircraft.
133 soon7x7 : Not to be insensative to the tragedy at hand but technically speaking, regarding airbuses with CFRP vertical fins...again...evidence in recent events
134 BOAC911 : It is an interesting point, however in that accident the AV 747 ended up on its back, and several unhurt or still conscious passengers were able to e
135 BOAC911 : This accident reminds me strongly of the CI A300 crash in Nagoya in 1994, especially because of the relatively intact tailplane
136 BOAC911 : [quote=rj777,reply=132]The USA will not be involved because it wasn't an American-built or registered aircraft, unless they decide to ask the NTSB for
137 soon7x7 : This tailplane appears to have become airborne after impact and performed a backflip, striking the rudder trailing edge and rudder tip...that had to
138 babybus : This is never enforced. They say that on Austrian airlines when landing but BA don't bother. You can quite happily take obvious aesthetic shots on th
139 rj777 : The worst part for him is going to be when he learns his family is gone. Apparently, some are saying he had a 12-year old sibling on that plane as we
140 Post contains links and images AirlineCritic : I do not think the report from the boy will bring significant amount of information. Not because of his age or shock. He simply was not in a place to
141 peterjohns : Does it really matter if he is eight, ten, twelve? I don´t believe they have TV cameras on him in his hospital room. That´s quite shocking, and mus
142 BA : Where have you read that the boy is not receiving proper medical treatment? Unless this is the case, there is no need to medevac him. Don't assume he
143 TommyBP251b : I strongly believe and I am 99,9% sure, that already someone from the Dutch Embassy in Tripolis is in the hospital taking care (translating, etc.) of
144 ETinCaribe : Personally, I hope the priority will be to afford the poor kid a fast recovery and adjustment to his new life, and not extracting any ancillary data
145 AR385 : The point I was trying to make is that the degree of destruction of an airframe from a CFIT can be total. Such destruction does not necessarily mean
146 Post contains links Owleye : The boy who survived the crash is almost for certain the 9 year young Ruben van Assouw from Tilburg (NL). He and his family went on a safari in South
147 tom355uk : Actually, the debris field doen not appear to be on the normal go-around path for 27 either. The published missed approach calls for a climb straight
148 Post contains links oly720man : Report here http://tripolipost.com/articledetail.asp?c=1&i=4432 The plane crashed as it was landing around 200 meters before the fence that separa
149 Post contains links ZKEyE : My god - cop a load of the stupidity in this blog.... http://whaleoil.gotcha.co.nz/2010/05...ne-still-want-to-fly-in-an-airbus/
150 tom355uk : It seems that this accident is starting to have some tragic parallels to the Polish Tu-154 crash last month. - Non Precision Approach - Extremely poo
151 severnaya : That is nothing more than a rumour for the moment being, isn't it? At 14:00 CET there will be a press-conference of the Libyan minister of Transport.
152 GBan : In which language would any cabin announcement on this airline be?
153 robffm2 : Giving the routing I believe it would be English and Arabic. Taking the pax into consideration too, it might be possible that some F/A speak Dutch to
154 tom355uk : No, the METAR's from the time clearly state a degradation of visibility to around 2000m due to mist, and it has been established that the sun would h
155 Post contains links Owleye : Update online live news by NOS Journal 24 (Dutch Broadcasting) shows that the PH-KBX, and a KLM (regular scheduled flight) departed to Tripoli this mo
156 QatarA340 : I am wondering if Afriqia cancelled its Johnasberg flights--or any flights because of this disaster?
157 KFlyer : Obviously they would have had to cancel some flights. One A330 is a big loss to a carrier with only three 332s.
158 Pihero : Although it is very early after the accident and no official statement has come from the Lybian authorities, there are a few aspects that need to be l
159 Post contains images tom355uk : Another informative, sensible and concise view from the left seat courtesy of Pihero. Thanks!
160 SN-MD11 : I can tell you from a good friend working there, that the working atmosphere deteriorated dramatically recently between the expats pilots (most of the
161 CityhopperNL : ..or the airplane was not in landing configuration but in TOGA configuration as we discussed before I believe France is going to assist, at least sen
162 xanda : Exactly. Very much respect the informative approach to the situation at hand. Thank you Pihero.
163 Post contains images wolbo : Number of Dutch casualties has now officially been increased to 70.
164 MIAspotter : Weird thing is that we have not heard anything from the Controllers on the area at the time, I know they might not be able to tell any details to the
165 Post contains links and images oly720man : Looks like one of the main landing gear legs in the foreground of the photo here... with no wheels or bogies on it. Seems to have been snapped clean o
166 pilotaydin : Looking more and more at the pics....and keeping in mind the Gulf Air flight that went in around in the mid east, and went into the water, and the Ar
167 rfields5421 : However the video and imagery we have seen indicates the debris field lies in a cone expanding in a westerly direction from a probable impact point.
168 Post contains images oly720man : Seeing as Google earth can show the sun, here's where it would have been at 6.10am (4.10UTC) as seen from 100m above ground, runway dead ahead. The su
169 SeeTheWorld : This article says that the aircraft was landing from the east. Regardless of whether it's accurate, the confusion continues.
170 severnaya : New official information will be most likely given in a press conference of the Dutch ministry of Foreign Affairs in the Hague between 5 and 7 pm CET.
171 Pihero : Could youn give us a link as I'm looking for that very kind of info and I haven't found a single picture that relates to the terrain / airport enviro
172 rfields5421 : There is an analysis on the first thread about this crash, where the folks are able to identify buildings from Google Earth, pictures of the area and
173 Post contains links and images FlyingBird : The flight was visible on http://www.flightradar24.com
174 Post contains links rfields5421 : Pihero Two posts in the first thread - BREAKING: Crash Landing In Tripoli, Libya: (by Flying Belgian May 12 2010 in Civil Aviation) #179 and #213 have
175 jetfuel : I have decided that there is too much conflicting information about this accident. The lack of definite information is so blatantly obvious
176 rfields5421 : It would be criminally stupid to try to medivac someone with serious injuries away from good medical care before they have been stabilized and their
177 Post contains links AVLNative : Interesting - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article7124851.ece Excerpt from article - Airbus crash: pilots tell of risks approach
178 Post contains links severnaya : It will be at 17:15 and the Dutch Foreign minister will be present. Broadcast here at 17:15 CET: http://nos.nl/nieuws/live/journaal24/
179 comorin : I am sure he is getting good medical care - Libya is a rich enough country and Tripoli has good hospitals and surgeons - many expat. I wonder what a
180 rfields5421 : Need some help. It appears that the Libyan Transportation Minister held a press conference on the crash yesterday - May 12. Two statements are attribu
181 Pihero : rfields5421, Thanks, I missed the video as my screen was very small at that time., and I realised that most of the documents came from one source :oly
182 Post contains images nnomad : I would go for something like this...
183 CityhopperNL : I have been looking at Google Earth over and over again, and comparing the situation with pictures and videos, but I am puzzled. There is no single o
184 RJ111 : Wow, where does one go to get these views of the world in 3D? (Sorry to be off topic)
185 nnomad : Like a lot of us said (correctly or incorrectly) it does look like a high speed nose down impact: first sections of the plane are destroyed with all
186 nnomad : The image i posted was changed in photoshop to create the new lighting .. google earth doesnt do those light effects
187 oly720man : Google earth controls in the top right corner of the screen. Use the one with the eye in the middle to change the viewing angle up/down/sideways.
188 Post contains links Winterapfel : The bashing has started/continues.... translated from Dutch newspaper using translate.google "he accident with the Libyan airline Afriqiyah Airways is
189 Post contains images oly720man : That view was more to indicate where the sun was than to represent a particular approach profile since we don't know the real one. Clearly we still d
190 Aesma : From AFP, own translation : A first meeting of the investigation commission has taken place thursday. The commission is composed of 2 French experts f
191 CityhopperNL : Yea I just read this in Dutch, well, it's an aviation lawyer who says this, he sees similarities because in both cases only the tail was found intact
192 Aesma : Whatever is found, whatever the company, whatever the airplane, the simple fact that in one case the plane was cruising, and in the other landing, mea
193 Post contains links and images DRAIGONAIR : No, also VOR DME 09 http://www.filedump.net/dumped/hllt1273763935.pdf Condolence to all who lost their lives. Also to the boy who lost his parents an
194 Post contains links Aesma : Found here , no idea of the reliability : In fact there is a doctored photograph on the first page of this thread so I guess reliability is bad.
195 Post contains links oly720man : do you mean the view between the aircraft with the smoke in the background? That'll probably be a Mig23 crash at an airshow last year. http://www.tri
196 Aesma : The smoke is photoshopped in.
197 Pihero : ...and you probably caught the softer aspect of that approach... My opinion still is with a 09 approach, in which case, your pic is very relevant ...
198 rfields5421 : The one question I have about that concept - this was their home airport and dawn landings are frequent for long haul crews. Though of course that mig
199 Pihero : Question and answer are very logical, I'm afraid
200 Viscount724 : Why do you say that? Other countries have accident investigation bodies with equivalent capabilities. A few examples: UK, Canada, Australia.
201 Post contains links SA7700 : This thread will be locked for further discussion. Any posts added to the thread, after the threadlock, will be removed for housekeeping purposes only
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