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Afriqiyah Airways Crash Landing In Tripoli, Libya #3  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 73066 times:
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Link to part 2: Afriqiyah Airways Crash Landing In Tripoli, Libya #2


Rgds

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
170 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6605 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 72866 times:
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Quoting CityhopperNL (Reply 161):
surely there is only one organization that is capable of dealing with a distaster of this magnitude. They should call in the NTSB

Dumbest comment so far in this thread.

I wonder if it is relevat to the investigation to find out where the surviving boy was seated? How was he able to survive while every other person died? Plus, from what I read, his injuries were not so severe, relatively of course.


User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 72847 times:

I am assured that there will be a very thorough investigation, since (the French accident investigation authority) will be party to it and they are one of best accident investigators in the world," said William Voss, president of the U.S.-based Flight Safety Foundation.

Excerpt from AP article speculating on visibility and GA issues:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...SCGdMkAlC6Fuj6PIwXSq2uZgQD9FM3PU00


User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4673 posts, RR: 77
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 72658 times:
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AR385 : "I wonder if it is relevant to the investigation to find out where the surviving boy was seated? How was he able to survive while every other person died? Plus, from what I read, his injuries were not so severe, relatively of course."

The investigators should have quite a lot more clues ...
On the other hand, one should see the impact as an event that happens on several seconds, and the energy of the collision with the ground is in fact dissipated very gradually, through the successive crushing / bending / shearing / twisting of the parts that get successively involved until not a lot of energy is left (relatively speaking, of course) in the last-involved section.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6948 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 72301 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 1):
Dumbest comment so far in this thread.

That's called sarcasm.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineCityhopperNL From Netherlands, joined Feb 2009, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 72025 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 1):
Dumbest comment so far in this thread.

Thank you, maybe I should have written "experienced in dealing with" instead of "capable of dealing with" to make it the smartest comment, whether you like it or not the fact is that the French have already called in NTSB for that precise reason.

Anyway, this is far more interesting, the first aerial view of the crash site, on the AP website just mentioned:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...pK6nNEiinw-iIB2045H7g9OE6IA?size=l

This makes everything a lot more clear now:





Go around is not very likely as I look at it now, as the plane would have made a right turn north as said earlier, but you never know.


User currently offlinebonusonus From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 71398 times:

Is that the entire wreckage field? There doesn't seem to be enough debris there to comprise an A330. Even in a high-impact crash (which this probably wasn't), I'd expect more pieces.

User currently offlineLHR380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 71222 times:

Quoting bonusonus (Reply 6):

Its only a small section of it.


User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6948 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 71040 times:

Quoting CityhopperNL (Reply 5):
Thank you, maybe I should have written "experienced in dealing with" instead of "capable of dealing with" to make it the smartest comment, whether you like it or not the fact is that the French have already called in NTSB for that precise reason.

If you were serious then I have to agree with him. The BEA is very qualified for this, and they didn't call the NTSB, the NTSB is part of the investigation because the engines are considered American (BTW the NTSB experts are not even there yet, a hint that they're not needed per se).



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineCityhopperNL From Netherlands, joined Feb 2009, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 71008 times:

No you are right, the majority of the debris is behind the tail section, that is: east of the tail.

Here are 3 pictures that show how far the debris reaches compared to the location of the tail, the small tower in all three images is a little bit of an indication of how large this field is

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1448/38491409.png
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7751/17391773.png
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/809/54939713.png

Also, a Dutch news website just reports that the 10 year old boy who survived the crash was found some 800 M away from the tail section. Which would be somewhere near that tower I think.


User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2915 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 69758 times:

Intersting bit of info in this article (in Dutch)
translation:

according to Afriqiyah employee who wishes to remain anonymous, Tripoli ATC always lets aircraft land on rwy 09 in the morning even if there is no wind. The reason for this is that aircraft landing on rwy 27 approach from the East, which obliges ATC to look into the sun, which they find unpleasant. [..]

Amongst Afriqiyah staff there has been discontent about this state of affairs for some time already. Not because it's now the pilots having to look into the sun, but since rwy 09 is fitted with the much older NDB (as opposed to ILS-equipped rwy 27). "rwy 09 is terrible, even compared to the rest of Africa", the Afriqiyah employee says.

[..] landing at 09 was made harder by low-hanging clouds. A pilot who landed on the same rwy a few minutes earlier was said to have warned his colleague on the ill-fated plane about this. Allegedly he even recommended him to request rwy 27 instead. The tower then merely answered "stand by". "They always do that. It means that you have to wait an eternity".

A KL pilot then is quoted as saying that he actually considers TIP ATC reliable and never had problems "well you can't fly a precision approach, but that in itself doesn't mean it is unsafe".

[...]

The captain of the plane, Yousif Al Ssady (1953), had an excellent reputation. "Everybody wanted to fly with him", an employee says. He had his training at the British Oxford Aviation Academy, who issued a press release yesterday in which it confirmed to have "a training relationship" with Afriqiyah.



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6948 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 69178 times:

I guess we should read in the first sentence that ATC "forces" aircraft to land on 09.

If this is true that's seriously screwed up, especially if the tower was in fact seeing the Airbus crash while the pilots weren't seeing anything !



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1996 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 68282 times:

Quoting CityhopperNL (Reply 9):
Here are 3 pictures that show how far the debris reaches compared to the location of the tail

Argh...!!! That debris field with people looking for human remains is really painful to see...

Quoting CityhopperNL (Reply 9):
the 10 year old boy who survived the crash was found some 800 M away from the tail section

Wow !!! 800 M ?? or 80 M ? Can you clarify ?

Thanks.

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineadam42185 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 416 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 68165 times:

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 10):
The reason for this is that aircraft landing on rwy 27 approach from the East, which obliges ATC to look into the sun, which they find unpleasant
Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 10):
rwy 09 is fitted with the much older NDB (as opposed to ILS-equipped rwy 27

WOW. Terrible if true. So the ATC doesn't want to look into the sun and thus make the pilots look into the sun while landing on a less than desirable instrument approach? This is just stupid, and if this is considered a factor into this crash heads should roll.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1996 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 67827 times:

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 10):
Intersting bit of info in this article (in Dutch)

It's interesting, yes, but unless there is a back up or official word for such a state of things, it's really hard to believe for me that the pilots of 8U ( or any other airline for that matter ) put at risk their own lives and their passengers/aircraft with the only purpose of give more comfort to the eyes of the people in the tower. Extremely stupid reason for attempt what it looks like a much more difficult approach compared with landing the opposite direction.

Rgds.

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6948 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 66764 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 14):
It's interesting, yes, but unless there is a back up or official word for such a state of things, it's really hard to believe for me that the pilots of 8U ( or any other airline for that matter ) put at risk their own lives and their passengers/aircraft with the only purpose of give more comfort to the eyes of the people in the tower. Extremely stupid reason for attempt what it looks like a much more difficult approach compared with landing the opposite direction.

Well, usually pilots will do what ATC tells them to do, unless it is evidently stupid.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinedenverdanny From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 66493 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 1):
I wonder if it is relevat to the investigation to find out where the surviving boy was seated? How was he able to survive while every other person died? Plus, from what I read, his injuries were not so severe, relatively of course.

In a number of accidents, people have survived by being ejected from the aircraft during its break up. The Eastern Everglades crash and UA 232 come to mind. Ejection doesn't always mean survival, but it's a possibility here, along with being in a section that fared better during energy dissipation. You can be ejected during break up but before complete airframe disintegration. Could explain why he's more intact, but with broken limbs.

[Edited 2010-05-13 15:58:56]

User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 66387 times:

Quoting CityhopperNL (Reply 9):
Here are 3 pictures that show how far the debris reaches compared to the location of the tail, the small tower in all three images is a little bit of an indication of how large this field is

The small tower is an observation post on the airport property. There are some pictures which show debris has hit the airport perimeter fence. From the fence to the tail resting place is approx 240M. The entire debris field is at least 300M long and about 70M wide at places.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1996 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 66141 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 15):
Well, usually pilots will do what ATC tells them to do, unless it is evidently stupid.

That's seems to be the case according to the article, the reason can't be more stupid. The sentence gives the idea that the reason for this situation isn't the wind direction and intensity, or any other valid reason, is just a caprice from the controllers, and I can't believe any pilot knowing this reason don't complain with the respective authorities in what appears to be some time since this practice is being applied ( again according to this article ).

Rgds.

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 66018 times:

A friend of mine was a sole survivor of a plane crash in Vietnam. She insists on sitting way back on all flights now. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but I imagine in certain types of crashes sitting at the back is better, as is sitiing facing backwards.

Getting back on topic, I find it hard to believe that in this day and age you can crash an airliner because the sun was in your eyes. Sure it was a long overnight trip, but don't you have back up crew all rested and ready to take over? The really long night flights are east to west, like DEL-EWR or HKG-LHR and I have never heard of this phenomenon before.


On another note, I really appreciate all the great posts by the pros on this thread - hats off to Pihero, Mandala499, Pilotaydin, rfields5421 and others. They make a.net the go-to place for aviation enthusiasts.


User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1886 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 66021 times:

Quoting denverdanny (Reply 16):
The Eastern Everglades crash and UA 232 come to mind.

I remember Captain Haynes of UAL 232 came to my grade school back when I was in 4th Grade. Apparently, some people said the kid jumped from the plane, but Capt Haynes said he was ejected.


User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6948 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 65888 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 18):
That's seems to be the case according to the article, the reason can't be more stupid. The sentence gives the idea that the reason for this situation isn't the wind direction and intensity, or any other valid reason, is just a caprice from the controllers, and I can't believe any pilot knowing this reason don't complain with the respective authorities in what appears to be some time since this practice is being applied ( again according to this article ).

I agree with you but I was referring to an order like "head this cap" when the cap in question gets you in a mountain.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineromeokc10fe From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 64476 times:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...estigators-launch-for-tripoli.html


US crash investigators launch for Tripoli
By John Croft

The US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) has sent a team of investigators to help the government of Libya determine what caused an Afriqiyah Airways Airbus A330-200 to crash on approach to the Tripoli airport early on the morning of 12 May. There was one survivor of the 104 passengers and crew on board.

The aircraft, equipped with General Electric CF6-8E1 engines, was arriving from Johannesburg, South Africa.

The US team, set to arrive in Tripoli Friday afternoon, will include a lead investigator as well an engines specialist and technical advisors from the US Federal Aviation Administration and General Electric.


User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3671 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks ago) and read 63801 times:

Quoting denverdanny (Reply 16):
In a number of accidents, people have survived by being ejected from the aircraft during its break up. The Eastern Everglades crash and UA 232 come to mind.

JAL 123 as well.

Anyway, I was wondering if the kid who survived in this crash was sitting in one of the seats we've seen in the pictures that was still relatively intact. Several photos show a row of seats that are empty but not very damaged.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6605 posts, RR: 35
Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks ago) and read 63565 times:
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Quoting Aesma (Reply 15):
Well, usually pilots will do what ATC tells them to do, unless it is evidently stupid.

I don´t know how things are done in Libya, but I find it hard to believe that ATC can tell a crew to accept a runway. Maybe the Libyan pilots HAVE to obey ATC unconditionally, but other foreign carries will never accept that. If it compromises safety, no Captain is going to accept a runway he doesn´t feel comfortable using. Whatever ATC tells pilots, if the crew believe safety is compromised, they will refuse what ATC commands and/or suggests.

Quoting comorin (Reply 19):
A friend of mine was a sole survivor of a plane crash in Vietnam. She insists on sitting way back on all flights now. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but I imagine in certain types of crashes sitting at the back is better, as is sitiing facing backwards.

Statistically, I´m not sure that is true. It really depends on the airplane and the type of crash. On the airbus that landed in the Hudson, if I recall, the only serious injury was to the flight attendant sitting way back in the plane. On the Tenerife tragedy, the surviors of the Pan Am 747, were the ones sitting near the front. The flight crew survived. On the AC DC-9 fire, the passengers that died were the ones sitting in the back, also true for the British airtours 737.So, it really depends on the type of accident.

[Edited 2010-05-13 19:02:54]

However, sitting backwards has been shown in many studies to prevent many injuries on an aircraft accident.


[Edited 2010-05-13 19:18:25]

25 zainmax : Any finds yet from the technical point of view ? They must have found the CVR/DFDR. What about fuel starvation ? No signs of fires indicates something
26 T prop : Seeing what's left of the aircraft, looks like it must have dragged a wing or had it hit an object causing it to cartwheel.
27 SolarFlyer22 : There are a lot of idiosyncrasies in the Arab world based and its tough to predict what the norms actually were. It would not surprise me if the ATC
28 rfields5421 : I guess ejected would be technically correct. All four survivors were strapped in their seats as the plane came apart around them. As were the couple
29 SAS-A321 : This accident looks very strange. The plane looks as if it was ripped apart. If you look at the location and distance from the airport they should hav
30 F9Animal : The size of the child is key I suspect. His head would not have been above the headrest, helping to avoid major head injury. Northwest flight 255 had
31 brenintw : Children definitely are -- younger children are still growing quite quickly and their bones are more elastic. My cousin fell from the bow of the ocea
32 BMI727 : But on UA 232, almost everyone in first class died, but the entire cockpit crew survived. So I don't think that there is really a general rule, it ju
33 KFlyer : Taking into consideration images by nnomad, oly720man an cityhopperNL - one can reach the speculation that due to the limited visibility, they misunde
34 Post contains links billreid : Don't know if anyone caught this but the Telegraaf in NL is reporting that there is a "Strong" connection between the AF crash and this one. The aircr
35 BMI727 : Unless the translation is wrong, he said the exact opposite. Either way, I am not at all inclined to take a lawyer's opinion as gospel.
36 jasond : The crash profile and debris field are unusual given the proximity to the ground and the airport. Here's another angle: What we have seen over recent
37 spacecadet : He seemed to say what the poster said he was saying, in the Google translation. But it seemed to me to just be an article in search of a dramatic pre
38 BMI727 : My Google translation gives me this: Maybe Google got this one wrong, or I am just missing something. That much is obvious in any language.
39 Post contains images KFlyer : Well, I do not think even somebody with nil aviation knowledge would accept a lawyer's words as credible ( unless of course, he wasn't a lawyer and hi
40 mandala499 : If so, that makes it a 09 Approach... LOL!!!!! That figures... sadly... In some parts of the world... the authority of the PIC over the ATC is subjec
41 pylon101 : 1. Wasn't Tripoli the airline's base airport? If it is so I can hardly imagine such a mistake: the airport layout is quite simple: one east-west runw
42 glareskin : In a number of accidents, people have survived by being ejected from the aircraft during its break up. The Eastern Everglades crash and UA 232 come t
43 Burkhard : But he knows how to claim a 20 000 per head pre payment and how to calculate his share of this. Vultures.
44 babybus : I am told that TIP airport is still open and operational. It must be unsetlling for arriving and departing passengers to see what could happen. Again
45 Post contains links morvious : Billread his translation is correct and also notice the one of glareskin. The guy doesn't know anything but calls himself an aviation lawyer.. PS. Dut
46 acabgd : Cars are also not supposed to be crashed, nor is it their normal operating environment, yet all the carmakers are trying to make their vehicles as sa
47 Post contains links severnaya : Yeah parts of the wings are laying on the fence as was seen in yesterdays coverage in Nova (dutch news program). See here starting at about 05:40 is
48 BrouAviation : Total lack of taste or moral of this newspaper, as always. De Telegraaf has been on my no-reading list for long, and now again with bold print.
49 AR385 : How much of the A330-200 is made of composite materials, and could that have been a reason for such destruction? Or the other way around?
50 Burkhard : No camera team there, so no films to fill TV minutes + Nobody paying it to be transmitted = no coverage .
51 RJ111 : I'm sure he knows aboslutely nothing about the situation, and that this claim is BS. It's not commercially viable at all to make an aircraft crash-re
52 oly720man : Can anyone say what the journalist is saying from about 5:50 onwards. It looks like he's standing next a broken off wing and pointing in the directio
53 flipdewaf : What are your thoughts on this theory, bearing in mound that I only have 55hrs flying time so please don't be too harsh. They setup for a VOR approach
54 alhena : He's showing both wings on the perimeter fence ahead of the debris field. Before that he showed first point of impact (trees before road near mosque)
55 oly720man : Ok, thanks for that.
56 acabgd : As you can see above, I was not advocating crash-resistant aircraft. I was wondering why the total destruction here and a relatively intact fuselage
57 RJ111 : Yeah, that was poor form from me. But i think the basic point is that prevention is dramatically more economical than any level of crash resistance -
58 CityhopperNL : These guys would even be rude enough to ask the kid if he knows where his parents are, it's a bloody disgrace. I have seen the airport fence at multi
59 JohnKrist : Not likely since it's their home base. And the roads width is not even a tenth of the rwy. They are not making them crash resistant, quite the opposi
60 oly720man : but lights are lights and if you're flying into the glare of a sunrise trying to find a runway through the haze, after an overnight flight, with what
61 cc2314 : Hmm interesting.
62 Post contains links and images JohnKrist : Don't know how they do it in Libya, but here we turn off the lights at sunrise. Also, if it was a road the mistook for being a runway I would have ex
63 ltbewr : I would be concerned about that the Government of Libya (basicly a dictatorship), owns the airline involved in this crash, owns the airport, employs t
64 Post contains links and images oly720man : Photo from here http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...afriqiyah-airbus-330-crash-14.html showing a view from the air of the tail next to the mosque D
65 Post contains links severnaya : No technical problems reported by the pilots prior to crash according to the authorities. Source: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...ALeqM5iyc86df
66 Post contains links and images RJ111 : Here's a good pic of the approach... View Large View MediumPhoto © Planecatcher
67 mandala499 : GOOD FIND RJ111... I'm beginning to think this was an approach to 09. Aircraft went to hit the ground at about abeam of the Missed Approach Point. Pos
68 rfields5421 : But the AF447 portion of the vertical fin recovered and the remains of this aircraft tail structure are completely different. Yes both are part of th
69 Boeing747_600 : One might also ask how on earth they could have ignored the radio altimeter.
70 A388 : I haven't followed everything in these discussions but doesn't the aircraft give a warning (ground proximity warning or something of the sort) when t
71 Post contains links YYZYYT : I was directed to this other site, by another post on this (or the prior) thread - can't find it now... http://www.flyafrica.info/forums/showthread.ph
72 oly720man : I presume they thought they were near the runway and the audible altitude indications were no different from what they should have been for a normal
73 A388 : Sounds plausible but isn't there a system on board which also monitors the distance to the runway itself which can give the pilots a signal that they
74 Post contains links oly720man : In theory the plane should be equipped with a GPS, or similar and its own nav systems, which when related to the location of the runway/airport in th
75 Aesma : Libya also has a lot of cash, and if they want European military hardware, better not screw with airbus. How good is the reputation of this airline a
76 JohnKrist : I was speaking of the road side lamp posts, nothing on the equipment on board or the rwy lights, sorry if I was unclear.
77 oly720man : Yep. Had my blinkers on just focussing on the runway illumination.
78 Gonzalo : The GPWS don't show up when the aircraft is configured for landing ( flaps config / gear down ). Rgds. G.
79 affirmative : It's starting to look more and more like a CFIT due to a case of "get there itis".. My deduction would be that after 9 hours in the air the Cap and hi
80 SolarFlyer22 : My impression exactly.
81 Post contains links adam42185 : I didn't see this posted yet, but this is an article from AOL news about the boy who survived. He doesn't remember what happened and the article says
82 September11 : interesting ...
83 Post contains links trigged : Tail obviously slid and probably did a single tumble resulting in the missing rudder piece. That tells me that the aircraft hit pretty shallow and sli
84 SlowFly : WIth the lines of thinking in these two posts one can begin to understand how they could end up where they did. This being their home field may have
85 mandala499 : Just the standard calls... if they intended to "steal the minima", and expect to have the runway presto in front of them dead center, then they'd jus
86 SlowFly : That's what we are doing, sure. Which is all fair, particularly if it maybe gets just one of us to think about one nasty situation we might just one
87 AVLNative : I agree. This reminds me of the recent Polish TU-154 crash.
88 Boeing747_600 : Well assuming that right up to the 20 ... 10 calls they thought that they were lined up for 09, wouldn't they have entered the flare mode by then? If
89 Gonzalo : Not 100% sure, but I believe this depend of the approach mode ( i.e. CAT 3 Pr. App - Autoland ), and apparently they were flying a very different app
90 Post contains images mandala499 : Yes... BA292 (I assume is the 777 double dead engine at LHR), had the luxury if ending up within the airport perimeter... and at very low speed (lowe
91 ltbewr : One of the issues that comes up with this crash is that issue of it being dawn and the landing may have been done into the rising dawn sun with possib
92 Boeing747_600 : Point taken (and thanks for the neat sketch of the Airbus Envelope Protection scheme) I wonder if in fact TOGA was applied so late during the flare (
93 spacecadet : Well, hopefully that puts to rest the idea that he will somehow help the investigation... Yeah, same here. Human error is responsible for the majorit
94 BA84 : The LHR flight number was BA 038.
95 Gonzalo : Apparently there is some confusion here. Like BA84 said, the 777 incident was flight BA038. The British Midland accident in Kegworth was flight 092.
96 rfields5421 : I think we will find a significant difference between this crash and the BA B777 at LHR. The BA crew knew they were going down short of the runway and
97 Post contains links cosmofly : It has some similarity to the CI 676 A300 crash over 10 years ago. http://www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/publ...itional/Reports/taipei/taipei.html A 10 year
98 AutothrustBlue : Only the TOGA detent will give you the mode changes needed to go around; leave the thrust levers anywhere else and you won't get the modes you want,
99 morvious : could not agree more!
100 andz : The headline of this morning's Saturday Star newspaper reads: FRESH TRIPOLI TERROR Quote: "The relatives of six South Africans who perished on Wednesd
101 QatarA340 : Its natural for people to be sensitive to every bump on a flight after their relatives have died recently! But the title is misleading, as well as so
102 SlowFly : Thanks Mandala - that's now clarified. And no autoland there, for sure.
103 pylon101 : I agree that this crush and one of TU-154M have some similarities. But visibility in Smolensk were absolutely unacceptable: visibility 500 -1,000 mete
104 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : This article says that a house with a family of 7 was hit by the A330, causing its roof to partially collapse. They all escaped unscathed. Maybe this
105 Cassi : It is also worth noting that out of the 7 fatal accidents with the A300, 5 were caused by human error during landing or go-around, 1 by human error a
106 AR385 : Can you reference those reports? Any official sources? If you are going to make such blanket statements, you should provide sources. And, I assume Tr
107 pylon101 : Mediterranean Coast is not desert. Sahara begins 50-200 km from the Coast. This region provided major part of food to the Ancient Rome. Not much chang
108 Post contains links flood : CNN: "Low visibility caused by mist and sand created poor flying conditions for the pilot of an Afriqiyah Airways flight that crashed just before land
109 babybus : It's Africa. I think we can rule out any possibility they were surprised by the sun. It isn't Gatwick. It would have been more of a shock to find a c
110 Aesma : You're forgetting AF 447 for the "mysterious airbus accident", and UTA 772 for the Colonel past. The original poster was implying that airbus airline
111 Post contains images mandala499 : To those who are interested: The above is just my take on what might have happened... I merged and jigged the Jeppessen and the Google Earth... Nice t
112 CptRegionalJet : It's a 30 ft difference for a 1HPa pressure change.
113 ikramerica : Perfect and 100% working condition is not the same thing. Airbus says the AA accident was 100% human error. AA disagrees. It's nice you have decided
114 pylon101 : I actually don't recall any Airbus related crash in which the manufacturer took resposibility. Do you? But at the same time I don't remember any inves
115 ruscoe : If 100% of Airbus accidents are not the fault of the aircraft, then that means they are 100% pilot related, and that is a very worrying conclusion. Ma
116 Post contains images Pihero : This picture from Googlemap : and this photoshopped version : These are the work of oly720man and nnomad in the previous thread. the atmosphere of the
117 comorin : Dumb Questions: Given that flights land every day in those conditions, was there something unusual about that day or was this an accident waiting to h
118 ltbewr : Is this scenerio possible? The a/c is flying into the dawn sun. The pilots are using their instruments for judgement of altitude and distance from the
119 WingedMigrator : Get somebody to find the left winglet. Its location in relation to the debris field should reveal a lot.
120 acabgd : What autopilot would they've been using when being that low on 09 approach which only has VOR? Normally when you apply go around power you tend to ke
121 rj777 : Actually, it was UA 232, not 292.
122 Pihero : Polarized glasses work after the sunrays have been reflected. Otherwise, they just act like coloured glasses. They are not recommended for airline fl
123 spacecadet : Except for the lens flare, which wouldn't exist in real life... Or, what if something broke and they rolled and crashed? This is a common scenario th
124 Post contains images mandala499 : A correction to the left, if they were on the VORDME FAC would put them back on the centerline and they would have hit the 3 sets of buildings just "
125 Pihero : That's one opinion we don't share : the wings were found just against the airport perimeter fence, apparently in the upright flat position, but havin
126 Post contains links oly720man : Looking at the video here http://player.omroep.nl/?aflID=10953160 (thanks to a post here http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...afriqiyah-airbus-330-
127 Burkhard : Thanks for sharing that. The tail is just on this long scrape. If a wing had hit the ground first, this should have given a lateral force and the scr
128 RJ111 : Has there been no official updates on this yet? It feels like we knew more about the AF 447 flight by this stage than we do of this accident.
129 oly720man : Without wishing to sound too cynical, I expect the Libyan authorities are sitting on things until blame can be apportioned. The pprune thread is hint
130 klwright69 : On the Tenerife tragedy, the surviors of the Pan Am 747, were the ones sitting near the front. But on UA 232, almost everyone in first class died, but
131 Post contains links and images ciaran : for starters this video of the forces involved in a test http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9deMKE-iek in earlier thread poster showed one of the main la
132 Post contains links AirlineCritic : Lets be clear: the NTSB's conclusion was this: Source: http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2004/AAR0404.pdf, page 160. Of course, I know its not cut and dry
133 spacecadet : The blame on Airbus and the airline was due to poor documentation of the rudder system that became more sensitive at high speeds, and AA's training t
134 Aesma : The problem is more that Airbus did things differently (not worse or better) than Boeing, and people did not realize that.
135 KL1291 : Latest update is about the boy, who is already eatingm, watching TV and recovering above expectation. No news or updates about the crash. Horrifying
136 rfields5421 : Not strange and not because it is Libya. Many nations do not have the tradition of 'open' investigations with several press conferences before the in
137 spacecadet : The NTSB puts out information on their own terms, nobody "forces" them to do it. The entire reason they are so respected throughout the world is that
138 babybus : Tripoli will be opening a new terminal in the next few years. I think they'd like to play down any negative publicity. You're right. the story has ba
139 KL1291 : It is and that's a shame! A dutch journalist from the NOS (national Dutch broadcast) confirms official Libyan "forces" keep him away from doing his j
140 RJ111 : Well if the FDRs are in Paris then hopefully we'll be able to get some information from a French source.
141 ikramerica : My only point in the whole matter was that the claim the aircraft was both PERFECT and performing 100% as designed are not the same thing, and no air
142 acabgd : I sincerely doubt it's because it's Libya. Of course, not a single country in the World likes "bad publicity", but I really doubt that the Lybians ar
143 AutothrustBlue : Did you mean A320?
144 rfields5421 : The NTSB Go-Team has a press briefing schedule before they head out the door. The briefing schedule is set to meet the needs and deadlines of the US
145 Pihero : That's all very nice and I could agree with the argument. BUT the AA A 300-600 flight controls, especially the yaw axis is "cable-and-pulleys-to-serv
146 ltbewr : Many want to know as soon as possible what has happened in any aircraft crash or incident to prevent any further ones. When a crash occurs in an isola
147 RJ111 : There are plenty of ways you can destroy or crash an aircraft with seemingly harmless inputs. As a pilot you are expected to know and respect your ai
148 babybus : No local will face criminal proceedings. You have to have a bit of social clout to get a job like that and blokes with clout just disappear into the
149 Post contains images severnaya : Your point is? Airlines like EK,QR and SU should be avoided? And since when is Russia dictorial and/or isolated?
150 Pihero : I won't generalize but the trend we're nseeing since the accident doesn't give me any hope of getting to the matter of safety. What have we got since
151 Post contains links zeke : The international Federation of Airline Pilots put out safety bullitens in 2002 called "Use of Rudder on Transport Category Airplanes" for both Airbu
152 ciaran : For fear that this tragedy is been buried, In that Libya has signed up to ICAO and the articles of agreement we have to wait patently for information
153 Post contains links AVLNative : Libya plane crash black boxes flown to France http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64J5NG20100520 (Reuters) - A Libyan investigator on Thursday flew
154 macc : they probably needed some time to come up with authentic background noise when they bespoke new tapes... serious, this is ridiculous!
155 SOBHI51 : This is BS. A lot of international agencies get involved nothing can be hidden. Same thing was said about the recent ET crash near BEY. For the exemp
156 pylon101 : I hope interim report will be released sooner than a year from now.
157 ruscoe : sorry if this has been mentioned, i have not read all the previous threads. The reference to the autopilot being switched on early in the ?go around s
158 zeke : Not unusual at all, an NDB approach can be flown down to the MDA on autopilot, below the MDA it should be hand flown. In a go-around or takeoff the a
159 alwaysontherun : Any news on the cause at all? ### "I am always on the Run"###
160 Post contains links tom355uk : From what I've seen and heard, a Somatogravic illusion followed by CFIT is looking the odds on favourite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory...estib
161 A388 : Interesting, what's your source to this? It sounds plausible given the information I've read so far in this forum. I've read several times that nothi
162 tom355uk : I read it on another forum, and the general consensus was that it seems the most plausible explanation as all the evidence so far uncovered fits perf
163 Post contains links Pihero : It's one very quick speculation, once RWY 09 was known to be in use. The "geometry" of this accident makes me believe otherwise : visual 09. That's t
164 Post contains images tom355uk : I don't want to tread on your toes or disrespect you, as I have enormous regard for your contribution and expertise, Pihero. However, the Somatogravi
165 Pihero : tom355uk, Should have made myself clearer : the "unpreparedness" I was referring to is about the eventual mishandling(s) of the flight management afte
166 Aesma : I'm not (yet) a pilot, but in a go around, especially with poor visibility, isn't it a reflex to look at your artificial horizon ? I mean, I can somew
167 tom355uk : Thanks for the clarification Pihero. So, the 'unpreparedness' refers to the fact that they did not expect to lose visibility at a late stage of the ap
168 zeke : I do not buy the "Somatogravic illusion" theory, despite what may have been mentioned above, if one is descending through layers of cloud, you have s
169 Post contains links winterapfel : According to Reuters http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE64T0VM20100530 - no sign indicating a technical failure - explosion or fire on boar
170 BalkantoDelta : I think we are getting closer here in this thread to what might have happened. My friend who I trained with is now with Nouvelle Air ( Ex Carthago) ou
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