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Who Will Fly Germany-HND?  
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3573 posts, RR: 2
Posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8344 times:

With the announcements of the USA-HND slots...I saw that Germany has two but are not yet assigned. Does LH not want them? Does AB have a shot at them?

Also will Japan open some more slots to the rest of Europe? Italy, Netherlands, Spain, Scandinavia?


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1605 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8329 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
Also will Japan open some more slots to the rest of Europe? Italy, Netherlands, Spain, Scandinavia?

One consideration here is whether these markets can support travel to Japan -- and I don't know I'm just throwing this out there. For instance, Scandinavia has had trouble with routes to the US, so I could see Japan being in the same boat. It might depend on who is flying the route -- is it AB or LH doing Europe-Japan, or is NH running it as Japan-Europe?


User currently offlineDFWEagle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8261 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
Also will Japan open some more slots to the rest of Europe? Italy, Netherlands, Spain, Scandinavia?

Already Japan has allocated two daily slot pairs for Haneda-Netherlands service (one pair for Dutch carriers and one pair for Japanese carriers)



Ryan / HKG
User currently offlineCX288 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8115 times:

I suppose that Lufthansa would be interested in serving Haneda either from their Frankfurt or their Munich hub.

Given the slot timings available, they could basically offer a daily flight along the following schedule

FRA-HND 11.05-05.00
HND-FRA 06.59-11.35

A night-time departure from HND to FRA would also be possible, yet the aircraft would have to stay in Haneda for around 20 hours which would be highly unproductive use of assets.


User currently offlinecentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8079 times:

I would gander that LH and NH would codeshare on any fight between HND and Germany. To create competition though, JL might want the slot for Japanese carriers. Would it be worth it being that JL would have limited connections in Germany.

If HND-LHR or other London airport are set, JL and BA will jump at these and then the additional slots will be fought over by VA and NH.

Alliance relationships are going to be big on routes.

As we saw with the US allotment it went two airlines without Japanese partners and the one with the least access. Star got zero. But NH will get some as the Japanese have yet to set their routes. I think this is a hint on how it could play out in the rest of the world and especially to Europe.

Anyone have any dates for when service is suppose to commence for non-US routes?



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7783 times:

Maybe AB once BER/BBI opens....has the A332 the legs to fly TXL-HND ? Maybe once the 787 arrive.


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinesydaircargo From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7746 times:

well DUS has one of the biggest Japanese populations outside of Japan, they might be interested to get a carrier
flying DUS-HND maybe AB as it is one of ther HUB´s


User currently offlineDFWEagle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7429 times:

Quoting centrair (Reply 4):
Anyone have any dates for when service is suppose to commence for non-US routes?

The Japanese government just announced today that all international services to HND may begin on 31st October.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...t-tokyo-haneda-to-start-on-31.html

AA will begin HND-JFK and JL will begin HND-SFO, HND-HNL, HND-BKK, HND-CDG and HND-TSA on that date. The others may choose a later date, but that's up to the individual carrier.

Quoting centrair (Reply 4):
To create competition though, JL might want the slot for Japanese carriers.

TWO daily HND-Germany flights are allowed for Japanese carriers and TWO more for German carriers. Both JAL and ANA could fly HND-Germany if the wanted to, but JAL has no plans to at this stage.



Ryan / HKG
User currently offlinestylo777 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 2993 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7359 times:

FRA-HND:
LH's first A380 destination is going to be NRT, so I don't think they could add another flight with atleast 215 pax capacity to Tokio

MUC-HND:
also unlikely due to the A346 already deployed on MUC-NRT

DUS-HND:
would be great due to the above mentioned big Japanese community, but with the current aircrafts LH and AB have it is not possible. the A340-300 is restricted during takeoff and the A330-300 hasn't got the range to do it. only the 332 of AB comes close, but still with penalties.


User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6829 times:
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Quoting stylo777 (Reply 8):
also unlikely due to the A346 already deployed on MUC-NRT

They can decide to abandon Narita altogether. Connectivity to the rest of Japan can also be provdided through Osaka.


User currently offlinestylo777 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 2993 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5648 times:

Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 9):
They can decide to abandon Narita altogether. Connectivity to the rest of Japan can also be provdided through Osaka.

give up NRT slots in order to introduce HND? establishing and maintaining of a new station is quite pricy therefore very unlikely...


User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3814 times:
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For Tokyo O&D traffic, Haneda wins hands down, and starting in November even more so.. Narita was a big mistake. Look at Montreal Mirabel.

User currently offlineDFWEagle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3768 times:

Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 11):
For Tokyo O&D traffic, Haneda wins hands down, and starting in November even more so.. Narita was a big mistake. Look at Montreal Mirabel.

There is no way that Haneda can absorb all the flights from Narita with only one extra runway coming online. Plus, there are a ton of carriers waiting for slots anyway that cannot get access to either airport so a lot of the additional capacity will be backfilled by them. Further, for long haul flights, Haneda is only an option between 22:00 and 07:00 with very limited frequencies and only certain markets authorised. Unless there is a dramatic shift in Japanese government policy, it is hard to envisage a situation where Narita does not remain the premier global aviation hub for Tokyo.



Ryan / HKG
User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3699 times:
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Narita was a big mistake...for Tokyo O&D traffic.

User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4461 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3484 times:

Quoting stylo777 (Reply 10):

give up NRT slots in order to introduce HND? establishing and maintaining of a new station is quite pricy therefore very unlikely...

I don't think this is an issue when one of your alliance partners has multiple flights ex NRT (and HND). The same applies to AF who will fly daily CDG-HND in addition to two CDG-NRT flights


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12523 posts, RR: 35
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3321 times:

Is there any indication of how long the Japanese authorities will hold to these absurd opening hours for international flights?

I'm actually quite surprised that the EU didn't raise an issue with the Japanese, from the viewpoint of competitiveness, because it seems that it's very difficult to offer a decent service to/from Europe, given the limitations available.


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4461 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3188 times:

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 2):
Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
Also will Japan open some more slots to the rest of Europe? Italy, Netherlands, Spain, Scandinavia?

Already Japan has allocated two daily slot pairs for Haneda-Netherlands service (one pair for Dutch carriers and one pair for Japanese carriers)

If the rumours are correct, KL will fly to HND as of November. With both AF and KL starting flights to HND, it's almost a given that either NH or LH will start FRA-HND (I personally think NH would be more likely as they can offer a better schedule).

Quoting kaitak (Reply 15):

I'm actually quite surprised that the EU didn't raise an issue with the Japanese, from the viewpoint of competitiveness, because it seems that it's very difficult to offer a decent service to/from Europe, given the limitations available.

Actually, the Japanese airlines have also problems with the limitations. Most likely a Japanese airline would depart just after midnight from HND, to arrive in FRA around 06:00. Given the limitations and turn around time they have to depart FRA between 08:00 and 13:00. However, these periods are already busy at FRA.

For airlines like AF and KL, the limitations aren't too problematic. AF just migrates its morning flight from NRT to HND, but still offers possibility to depart late at night to Tokyo. Furthermore the timings aren't bad for connecting to other destinations in Europe, thus airlines like KL won't object too much.


User currently offlineteme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1571 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3061 times:
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I must add that AY would like to have daily HEL-HND service   I hear that their NRT flight has good pax loads  


Flying high and low
User currently offlinenaritaflyer From Japan, joined Apr 2006, 549 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3042 times:

Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 11):
For Tokyo O&D traffic, Haneda wins hands down, and starting in November even more so.. Narita was a big mistake. Look at Montreal Mirabel.

Wow!! What an apples to oranges comparison. Tokyo with 38 million people and with first class rail system comparing with Montreal's at most 3 million people and no rail service is just about as laughable as anything else I've heard.

Tokyo can do very well with NRT and HND's role well-defined. But when they muddle the water by splitting international traffic at both airports that's when it gets stupid. NRT and HND should both maintain their respective roles and move on. I don't agree with the split service at HND.


User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2769 times:
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Quoting naritaflyer (Reply 18):
Tokyo with 38 million people and with first class rail system comparing with Montreal's at most 3 million people and no rail service is just about as laughable as anything else I've heard.

The comparison between Mirabel and Narita was not meant as a comparison of scale but rather of ineffecient government planning. There are many examples where a new airport built far from the city center met with unusual resistance by airlines and their customers.
Recent examples include Milan Malpensa, and Tehran Khomeni, Berlin-Schoenefeld (Berlin-Brandenburg Int'l)

Please remember that the move of Int'l air service to Narita (at the time called New Tokyo International Airport, as if everybody really needed to know) was imposed by the Japanese government. The move was not voluntary. There is no high-speed train service between Germany and Tokyo that I know of, and Narita Express does not count, because it gets the traveler only to a downtown train station, from which he/she mostly like will need to take a taxi to get to the hotel. If you arrive at Narita in the late afternoon, and decide to take the hotel shuttle bus (which will not only stop at your hotel, but half a dozen others on the way) you will need to plan for an hour or more to get to your hotel. Also, at the time of the Narita's opening, there was no Narita express, and no hotels existed in the airport's vicinity.

Also, the Japanese government has been unable to convince a farmer to sell his land.


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