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AirTran Pilots To Picket Outside Annual Meeting  
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3096 posts, RR: 10
Posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5778 times:

I did not know but AirTran pilots have been seeking a better contract for the last 5 years. They want what most pilots want which is better wages and what is termed "quality of life" improvements. Obviously AirTran is concerned that these requested changes could affect their "low-cost advantage".

I hope some AirTran pilots could post here and explain to the rest of us why this has dragged on for 5 years even though we could all guess and probably be right.

Courtesy: Associated Press

AirTran Pilots To Picket Outside Annual Meeting

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/AirTra...icket-apf-1387400362.html?x=0&.v=3

131 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5718 times:

From the article
"AirTran captains in their 10th year of service who fly 75 hours a month on small narrowbody aircraft earn on average $129,000 a year, compared with $143,000 at American and $197,000 at Southwest Airlines, according to aviation consultant Kit Darby, who tracks pilot pay across the industry."

  



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User currently offlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5703 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 1):
$197,000 at Southwest

Wow, I had no idea that Southwest was so high, relatively speaking. Kind of blows AirTran's 'low cost advantage' argument out of the water, doesn't it?


User currently offlineAtlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5578 times:

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
I hope some AirTran pilots could post here and explain to the rest of us why this has dragged on for 5 years even though we could all guess and probably be right.

I know several of these guys, they arent by no means looking to become rich or break the company they are only asking to be paid industry average for mainline carriers. Before people start the typical leave your job if you dont like it crap, talk to one of them one on one they are a great group of guys and ladies they would be glad to talk about the contract, whats going on at FL.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
User currently offlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5541 times:

Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 2):

Wow, I had no idea that Southwest was so high, relatively speaking. Kind of blows AirTran's 'low cost advantage' argument out of the water, doesn't it?

Southwest Airline Captains are the highest paid Captains domestically, of all the airlines.

International is different due to per diem and rates and such, but comparing all the pay as per www.airlinepilotcentral.com would show that WN does indeed pay the highest.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2359 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5435 times:

Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 3):
I know several of these guys, they arent by no means looking to become rich or break the company they are only asking to be paid industry average for mainline carriers.

And that is the problem/ airTran--relatively speaking---is a small airline. I would expect them to be below the industry average. I would expect the larger and more profitable airlines to be above the average. After all it is an average and someone has to be below it. It really has nothing to do if they are great guys or not.


User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5258 times:

Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 3):
I know several of these guys, they arent by no means looking to become rich or break the company they are only asking to be paid industry average for mainline carriers. Before people start the typical leave your job if you dont like it crap, talk to one of them one on one they are a great group of guys and ladies they would be glad to talk about the contract, whats going on at FL.

It's apples to oranges....AA and WN dwarf FL...
Paying WN labor rates will definitely make them uncompetitive...and it will hurt and damn them almost immediately....
How can that not come across as greed
They make $197,000 a year and I make $129,000 which let me guess is not a livable wage...what baffles me more is that they have the nerve to compare the salaries
AA is 6x the size of FL
WN is 5x the size of FL



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User currently offlinelrdc9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 610 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5178 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 6):
They make $197,000 a year and I make $129,000 which let me guess is not a livable wage...what baffles me more is that they have the nerve to compare the salaries

What the hell do you mean by the nerve? It is certainly reasonable to provide a comparison to other US airlines.
That said it would be better if a comparison was offered to other similar airlines - they are pretty darn close to Sun Country and Frontier, as well as Midwest, when it still existed. It does not, however, mean there is something wrong with seeking a better contract.



Just say NO to scabs.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1957 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5158 times:
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2 things

#1 We are in a recession 10% of the population doesn't have a job, so to complain over $14,000 a year (difference between FL and AA) is just selfish

#2 Airtran is a LCC airline and a small one at that. Don't be a professor at a community college and wonder why they aren't paying you the same as Harvard.



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User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5137 times:

Quoting lrdc9 (Reply 7):
What the hell do you mean by the nerve?

The nerve because they AA and FL are not equally matched...
The nerve because unemployment is at %10+ in this country
The nerve because the industry loses billions each year
The nerve because it is already a very reasonable and livable wage
The nerve because a union is a business and is in it to make money
The nerve because the wage is in line with similar sized carriers



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User currently offlinelrdc9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 610 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5138 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 8):
#1 We are in a recession 10% of the population doesn't have a job, so to complain over $14,000 a year (difference between FL and AA) is just selfish

#2 Airtran is a LCC airline and a small one at that. Don't be a professor at a community college and wonder why they aren't paying you the same as Harvard.

2 more:

#1 That is irrelevant. These people do and are employed in a skilled position.

#2 This is a major airline. Please do expect comparable pay to the rest of the industry operating similar gauge aircraft.



Just say NO to scabs.
User currently offlinenewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5136 times:

Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 3):
Before people start the typical leave your job if you dont like it crap, talk to one of them one on one they are a great group of guys and ladies they would be glad to talk about the contract, whats going on at FL.

That's all nice and good, but when there are thousands who would love to take your job off your hands, you don't have much leverage. I'm sure they're nice people, but so are all of those that are unemployed.



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlinenewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5129 times:

Quoting lrdc9 (Reply 10):
#1 That is irrelevant. These people do and are employed in a skilled position.

It is not irrelevant, because they are easily replaceable. It is a skilled job where lots are skilled.

Quoting lrdc9 (Reply 10):
#2 This is a major airline.

Not compared to the legacies. It's not even close.



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlinelrdc9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 610 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5094 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 9):
The nerve because the industry loses billions each year
Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 9):
The nerve because a union is a business and is in it to make money

A) Those losses have a lot more to do with problems with the fundamentals of some airlines as opposed to a few more dollars for a labor group. Therefore irrelevant.
B) This is just patently false. Perhaps you should go back and review some of the posts in the Spirit Airlines thread.

Quoting newark777 (Reply 12):
Not compared to the legacies. It's not even close.

Well, here's the good news. You don't have to be a legacy carrier to be a major airline. 130+ airplanes is not a small business.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 9):
The nerve because they AA and FL are not equally matched...
The nerve because unemployment is at %10+ in this country
Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 9):
The nerve because the wage is in line with similar sized carriers

All covered in Post #7.



Just say NO to scabs.
User currently offlinelrdc9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 610 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5078 times:

Quoting newark777 (Reply 12):
It is not irrelevant, because they are easily replaceable. It is a skilled job where lots are skilled.

Ahh they would be easily replaceable if the airline could fire them with out cause. Luckily the union protects them from that kind of thing. Along with working on the new contract.



Just say NO to scabs.
User currently offlinenewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5045 times:

Quoting lrdc9 (Reply 13):

Well, here's the good news. You don't have to be a legacy carrier to be a major airline. 130+ airplanes is not a small business.

Delta = 743
American = 615
Southwest = 547
Continental = 339

My point? Yes, they are small.

Quoting lrdc9 (Reply 14):

Ahh they would be easily replaceable if the airline could fire them with out cause. Luckily the union protects them from that kind of thing. Along with working on the new contract.

But they don't have any leverage. Don't like the offer? Fine, strike, drive the airline into the ground, and everyone loses. The article clearly says the airline is hitting financial trouble, so demanding more money now could just lead to more layoffs down the road.



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5027 times:

Quoting lrdc9 (Reply 13):
Those losses have a lot more to do with problems with the fundamentals of some airlines as opposed to a few more dollars for a labor group. Therefore irrelevant.

Coming from a guy whose signature is say no to scabs...

Quoting lrdc9 (Reply 13):
B) This is just patently false. Perhaps you should go back and review some of the posts in the Spirit Airlines thread.

And what is false? Airlines haven't lost billions every year? Labor unions are a for profit business...
Or is that too irrelevant...
Logan, stay in school and work hard...your entitled to your beliefs no matter how ignorant...



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User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3136 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5013 times:

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 5):
And that is the problem/ airTran--relatively speaking---is a small airline. I would expect them to be below the industry average

Why does size matter (when comparing same/similar aircraft)? Shouldn't profitability be the overriding factor?

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 5):
I would expect the larger and more profitable airlines to be above the average.

Again, not sure what size has to do with it, but we agree on the profitability aspect. Do you know where AirTran falls in comparison to their legacy competition in regards to profit?

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 5):
After all it is an average and someone has to be below it.

And I would expect those above the average be the more profitable carriers such as WN... and FL.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 6):

It's apples to oranges....AA and WN dwarf FL..

Again, what a silly argument. DL and now United are twice the size of WN. I guess UA and DL employees should have double the salary of WN? Hmmm, on second thought you guys might be on to something..



FLYi
User currently offlinenewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5006 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 16):
Logan, stay in school and work hard...your entitled to your beliefs no matter how ignorant...

I had assumed until now that I was arguing with a hardened union lackey who was more experienced with labor scabs, not acne ones.  



[Edited 2010-05-17 20:49:53]


Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25013 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4986 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 16):
And what is false? Airlines haven't lost billions every year? Labor unions are a for profit business...
Or is that too irrelevant...

Pretty much irrelevant. Airtran has't lost billions every year, and just in the last two weeks oil has fallen by $17 a barrel, so maybe things have changed.

I really don't understand that employees are expected to be so passive and just accept whatever management cares to throw at them.

You don't ask, you don't fight for what you believe, you seldom get.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 16):
Logan, stay in school and work hard...your entitled to your beliefs no matter how ignorant...

I don't think his views are ignorant. You may disagree with him, but he is a very long way from ignorant.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinenewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4984 times:

Quoting PITrules (Reply 17):
Why does size matter (when comparing same/similar aircraft)? Shouldn't profitability be the overriding factor?

The overriding factor is how strong the union is. And I assume the big airlines have bigger and more powerful unions.



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4974 times:

Quoting PITrules (Reply 17):
Why does size matter (when comparing same/similar aircraft)? Shouldn't profitability be the overriding factor?

Revenue can be attributed to size...WN's model is based on growth so they can spread their fixed costs

Quoting PITrules (Reply 17):
Again, what a silly argument. DL and now United are twice the size of WN. I guess UA and DL employees should have double the salary of WN? Hmmm, on second thought you guys might be on to something..

Luckily they went into bankruptcy or it would have been that way...

Quoting newark777 (Reply 18):
I had assumed until now that I was arguing with a hardened union lackey who was more experienced with labor scabs,

Likewise!

Again the argument is a man is making $129,000 wants more money because a greedy for profit union tells him he is underpaid and not making a livable wage or a good quality of life...

When many would kill for earnings like that...it's just greed when you look at it...



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User currently offlinenewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4953 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 19):

I really don't understand that employees are expected to be so passive and just accept whatever management cares to throw at them.

On the flip side, I don't understand why unions expect pay increases when the company is hitting trouble.

You can't expect the company to care about the union when the union doesn't care about the company.



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3136 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4932 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 21):
Revenue can be attributed to size...WN's model is based on growth so they can spread their fixed costs

Revenue can be attributed to many many things. BTW, FL is also a growth company; in the past couple years they may even have grown more than WN. If that's your argument why the difference in pay?

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 21):

Luckily they went into bankruptcy or it would have been that way...

Such a great business plan - if a company is "lucky" they will go in bankruptcy.



FLYi
User currently offlinelrdc9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 610 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4930 times:

Quoting newark777 (Reply 15):
My point? Yes, they are small.

Which, have no doubt, is a fantastic point, until you realize that the size really has no relevance to pay anyway. 100-150 seat aircraft are the same size in a 10 aircraft fleet or a 200 aircraft fleet. Pay should follow the aircraft size, not fleet size.

So lets compare AirTran to JetBlue's A320 pay scale, an airline with similar size and mission.

1st Year F/O - $43 FL/$47 B6
5th Year - $72 / 92
10th - 79/104
12th - 79/108

1st Year Capt. - 138/102
5 - 120/145
10 - 144/155
12 - 153/159

At some points in the scale there are some glaring pitfalls to FLs pay.

Quoting newark777 (Reply 15):
Fine, strike, drive the airline into the ground, and everyone loses.

Ahh yes, glad to see we've missed out on the idea of bargaining.
Quoting newark777 (Reply 15):
The article clearly says the airline is hitting financial trouble, so demanding more money now could just lead to more layoffs down the road.

Further this would not have any drastic affect on FL, the airline is doing fine financially, and we are clearly approaching a recovery in the economy.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 16):
Coming from a guy whose signature is say no to scabs...

I would appreciate an explanation of how that relates AT ALL to the quote you provided?

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 16):
Labor unions are a for profit business...

Yes that one, which I made clear in #13.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 16):
Logan, stay in school and work hard...your entitled to your beliefs no matter how ignorant...

Why thank you, I plan on it.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 17):
And I would expect those above the average be the more profitable carriers such as WN... and FL.

By god, we have a winner.e

Quoting newark777 (Reply 18):
I had assumed until now that I was arguing with a hardened union lackey who was more experienced with labor scabs

I must tell you, I am actually quite flattered by that. I'll try to keep it up.  
Quoting newark777 (Reply 20):
The overriding factor is how strong the union is. And I assume the big airlines have bigger and more powerful unions.

And you would probably assume incorrectly.

Quoting newark777 (Reply 22):
You can't expect the company to care about the union when the union doesn't care about the company.

Which is why labor relations must be a two-way street. Anybody want to trot out the WN cliche right about now?

Regards,
Logan R.

[Edited 2010-05-17 21:01:16]


Just say NO to scabs.
25 mariner : I've seldom known a management not cry poor in contract negotiations. I don't share that view that - generally - unions don't care about the company.
26 thegreatRDU : mariner,pit, and logan every time airline employees demand more pay will you agree with them? By that I mean they didn't try to pull an AA and swallow
27 lrdc9 : Yeh, the nerve of AA to try and meet their obligations. Shame on them. Why do that when you can extort concessions from your employees.
28 newark777 : I wouldn't call threatening to strike unless they get their pay raises bargaining either. No, the article clearly says they are NOT doing fine financ
29 thegreatRDU : Or just go out of business...but a gun gets put to the head of the taxpayer and the cycle repeats itself...unions will continue falling out of favor.
30 mariner : It would depend entirely on the circumstances. I thought the unions rolled over and played dead when United shoved it to 'em without any lube during
31 lrdc9 : Which ignores that they legally can not strike until released by the NMB having reached an impasse. I suggest checking some outside sources. While in
32 mariner : Each to their own, but I disagree radically with that assessment, too. The most continuously successful airline in the US is one of the most unionize
33 Atlwest1 : They are doing overall better then all the majors and are on track to having profits near or above last years. Airtran has been profitable every year
34 Post contains images deltal1011man : Its is great for people...........on anet who didn't see there stock go right out the window, or they work for the company and they see everything th
35 TVNWZ : When you talk about wanting "industry average" size absolutely matters. The smaller airlines will most likely be below the average. And FL is one of
36 FlyPNS1 : Why? Many smaller companies in other industries actually pay more than bigger companies because they don't have the bloated overhead that big compani
37 jerseyguy : No they aren't to blame for unemployment but neither are the 10% of people who are unemployed. 10% unemployment= less people are flying. Less Busines
38 Post contains links Jacobin777 : 10% is the "official" numbers. When one adds "underemployed" (i.e.-working less than 40h/week, ect.), the actual numbers are about 17% and has actual
39 Amatiel : I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for more when the company has profited for how many years off having much lower pay rates. They have been in n
40 FlyPNS1 : All that is true, but FL has seen increasing revenues and record loadfactors, so the downturn hasn't hit FL that hard. The only things that have real
41 Post contains images deltal1011man : No and if FL was making money then i would say the pilots have room to ask for money then. Even then, don't give the CEO a bouns and then say we have
42 Post contains links citrus1 : http://www.marketwatch.com/story/air...e-measure-2010-05-18?siteid=yhoof2 Strike Vote, let's see if this get's the ball rolling.
43 TVNWZ : By bloated overhead you mean? Too many workers? To high priced workers? Are you saying everyone else should work harder so pilots can make more money
44 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Management has many more parties to answer to than unions, which only answer to their members, so they don't just "throw something out". Correct. How
45 Jacobin777 : You might be correct, but you have only looked at part of the situation. According to a recent 8-K (23-Mar-2010), non-fuel CASM has gone up 4%-5% as
46 FlyPNS1 : In some cases, yes. Legacy carriers have often had grotesque levels of overstaffing, though that has improved in recent years. That too. No. I'm sayi
47 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Who is getting paid millions, especially at FL ? And what if the right answer is no increase in costs (ie wages)?
48 HeavyMX1 : From what I have been hearing the majority of FL's employees are not happy with the pilots and are not going to support any actions they take that mig
49 Post contains images EA CO AS : Didn't I just leave this party?
50 FLtpaFA : the pilots are supported fully within the other workgroups of the company. the pilot group is fully supported by other members of work groups within
51 HeavyMX1 : Maybe by the FA's since they have their own issues, but practically every other department see's them as greedy. Just start asking around and you wil
52 Buddys747 : A lot of union locals are not for profit. Hopefully both sides can come to an agreement. The pilots have every right to fight for a better wage.
53 FLtpaFA : now that is funny as when the mechanics were moaning and groaning and fighting for a new contract the pilots and flight attendants were there to supp
54 MaverickM11 : I believe it is also heavily in debt and it is losing market share in ATL since DL has reduced its unit costs and FL's have crept up. Sorry, but you
55 deltal1011man : just a note Mav. but I have yet to see any unions leave airlines. I have seen a few get voted in though(the latest being CO's ramp) So saying unioons
56 Alias1024 : It never fails to amaze me how many people on this site get worked up over these announcements and news stories. Picketing is just another part of neg
57 FLtpaFA : Noone has said we live in a vacuum, and lost market share it altanta, well not sure of that per say. We have gone from being 85% flying out of atlant
58 MaverickM11 : Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Your airline is profitable because your unit costs are below your unit revenues. Fairly simple math. FL RASM (th
59 thegreatRDU : I'm not even worried..unions are falling more and more out of favor...way to ruin a good airline...
60 FLtpaFA : Maybe you should check your facts, 2009 the CEO took a 33% pay increase, putting him over 2million a year, he is above most legacy and above all LCC
61 jerseyguy : Yes there will always be a few people who are unemployed but 23 million people is hardly a few. The CEO is wrong as well, he shouldn't be taking a bi
62 mariner : Pretty much. Unions - or individuals - can ask/demand. Only management can give. mariner
63 Post contains links FlyPNS1 : You might want to take a look at this link. http://www.centreforaviation.com/new...lans-largely-window-dressing/page1 Look particularly at the execut
64 Post contains links and images jerseyguy : Almost right, Unions can ask/demand/strike management can give or be extorted (From the Spirit strike thread, billboard is on I-94 near DTW)
65 mariner : LOL. Assuming the demand is out of line, it is only extortion if the managers agree to it. mariner
66 FLtpaFA : AirTran had the lowest estimated average wage/benefit package per employee at USD56,000, but as a ratio of total employee compensation, executive payo
67 MaverickM11 : As mariner said, management is always wrong. Regardless of whether they are paying employees too much or too little. And that is why union membership
68 mariner : Hmmmm? Some managements, notably Southwest, often get it very, very right. mariner
69 Post contains images MaverickM11 : As long as they were profitable, perhaps, but now that they've hit some difficult times, the TWU, flight attendants, and pilots have gotten a lot mor
70 mariner : As I recall, the Southwest pilots recently approved the new t/a, with fairly minimal changes from the first version. Yes, they rejected it the first
71 FlyPNS1 : It sends the wrong message when you pay your management top of the line, while demanding labor stay at the bottom. It creates a poisonous environment
72 Alias1024 : I never said it was a few. Please read what you quoted.
73 TVNWZ : Maybe he gets paid for keeping salaries at the bottom. Or, in board room speak, "running a very efficient airline." and "maximizing resources."
74 UAL747DEN : LOL I had thought the same thing! This kid is 13 he has never even thought about getting a job in his life! It must be easy to talk about pay when pa
75 newark777 : I see this has turned into an entrenched fight between labor and management, and I really don't know the nitty gritty details of Airtran's situation,
76 mariner : Then again, Mozart was composing some of the greatest music the world has ever known long before he was 13. Not suggesting the poster is another Moza
77 Atlwest1 : The labor groups at FL SUPPORT the pilots and are trying in their own ways to send msg's to management to hope for a speedy end to the impasse. It ha
78 caspian27 : It seems the people who are saying pilots already make too much, don't even work in this industry. How about you guys keep to the industries you know?
79 newark777 : The holier-than-thou attitude doesn't help your cause. How about sticking to flying planes, not telling business people how to run a company?
80 Atlwest1 : How about people who know not of what they speak dont try to dictate to people who work in an industry what they should and shouldnt except or expect
81 FLtpaFA : Funny all he is saying that you judge us when we try and negotiate new fair wage and work rules, but if you were in your job and 5+ years don't have
82 lrdc9 : Well thanks Bud. Coupla things. a) I am 15. b) I have held a job for a year and a half, which also entailed commuting from Maryland to Virginia. You
83 newark777 : First of all, I love aviation, not the industry. This is a business concept, not specific to aviation. And like I said, I don't know specifics on Air
84 Post contains images Atlwest1 : LOL uhhh im actually typing in a hurry, you know gotta actually work in this industry to make a living. But thanks your tip is duly noted. Is it not
85 Post contains images nwaesc : Sage advice. Too bad no one on here will take it... Great straw man you've got there. Well done. (rolls eyes) And in turn, that almost always results
86 Post contains images tugger : What is the work scope and retirement option differences between the two groups to get that level of pay? But are they willing to do more work, i.e.
87 Atlwest1 : I can assure they would definitely do so but they have restrictions beyond the airlines control that govern them so the airline has to work with in t
88 Buddys747 : I mentioned that earlier and got no response. More often than not now, CEO's/executives/upper management just jump ship from one company to another w
89 aa757first : Why don't they just go work for jetBlue?
90 lrdc9 : You mean aside from the fact that B6 isn't hiring? Why leave to start at the bottom again when they can improve things where they are? This idea of g
91 Post contains images EA CO AS : I wholeheartedly agree. But I think employees have a responsibility to understand what role they play in the company's success as well, and that whil
92 Post contains images lrdc9 : I think they understand the big picture a little better than you imagine. Look at this we agree on something! I think the takeaway should be that whe
93 jerseyguy : Ok, you never used the word few. So do you mean that 23 million people unemployed is nothing, just an average day in America?? My point is that there
94 Post contains images WarRI1 : Good reasoning, do not let them beat you down. Sticking up for yourself is not acceptable to many on here. One must serve the Master, take the scraps
95 thegreatRDU : Strike if you want...cause layoffs and million dollar losses to your company that pays you a decent wage...
96 Post contains images lrdc9 : Well they aren't striking. They are picketing an event to raise awareness to the fact that their contract negotiations have been unnecessarily dragge
97 WarRI1 : Going on strike is not an action taken lightly. Those layoffs and million dollar losses to the company are the bi-products of management actions, dec
98 Post contains images MaverickM11 : I'm sure DL unofficially supports the FL pilots Anything that decreases the wedge of costs between DL and FL is good for DL.
99 TVNWZ : After going through this thread and other such threads, are there any airlines where the pilots are truely happy?
100 thegreatRDU : I guess not...the unions are to blame feeding everyone false lies... Where in a recession...money is tight...you already make a reasonable wage...whi
101 mariner : Why is it only ever unions that lie in your book? These negotiations have been going on for more than five years. mariner
102 thegreatRDU : It's no secret that when it comes to productivity and job growth in all industries Union Shop vs. Non-Union.... Non Union wins... Michigan is the pos
103 mariner : Tell Southwest that. mariner
104 thegreatRDU : Tell Westjet that
105 mariner : Westjet is a US airline? mariner
106 lrdc9 : Right. . . I would say many pilots are happy. It's not a blanket thing where I can say this airline is and this one isn't. I'm sure there are people
107 Atlwest1 : The pilots arent asking to be paid 80k a year to screw a bolt into a door frame. So the comparison with unions doesnt make sense. They are asking to b
108 thegreatRDU : No they are based in Calgary, Canada
109 thegreatRDU : No they are based in Calgary, Canada
110 Buddys747 : Because too many years of right wing control, especially all the damage done during the Reagan years. That's funny because in the power industry, mos
111 Tugger : No one has answered my question: I am curious as the Southwest pilot seems high paid but they don't have a pension and their work scope is from what I
112 Post contains images WarRI1 : Right on. Absolutely No doubt about that. How can the deniers not see that?
113 HeavyMX1 : If I recall the past 2 mechanic contracts passed on the first vote with no problem and they are not at the industry average if you want to compare th
114 Alias1024 : There are always people that don't have a job through no fault of their own. My point is that it shouldn't have any bearing on whether you stand up f
115 nwaesc : Because either: A) It fits their agenda, or B) The manufacture of opinion has been so complete that they don't even realize that they're advocating a
116 WarRI1 : It does seem like a pre-programed response some times. It is almost like they have been to the same school for brainwashing. It was at one time an ad
117 jerseyguy : I can't help but laugh either because when most people quit, they tend to go in search of new employment and not picket their employer. I think that
118 Alias1024 : It's their choice as to what they want to do with their free time. If they feel that the best use of their time is picketing and a public show of sol
119 apodino : The one bizzare thing about this is that the Annual Shareholders meeting was closed to the press. A business writer for the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel
120 lrdc9 : That's funny, since the union has to be authorized by the employees to stage a strike. As I recall FLs was somewhere in the mid/high 90 percent range
121 WarRI1 : A tough concept for some, free choice. A tough concept for some, unhappy employees. A tough concept for some, some people still have balls.
122 fltpafa : Well obviously they were happy to take what they got, and the pilot and flight attendant group doesn't expect to have SWA contract wages. But they do
123 rumorboy : Better look at the mechanics contract. Airtran mechanics are at or near indusrty leading in PAY and WORK RULES and TOTAL COMPENSATION. So Management a
124 norcal : The problem is more often then not management doesn't want to work with labor. There are very few instances of great leaders and leadership teams in
125 nwaesc : Arguably one of the best posts I've read on here in some time. I think you've captured the sentiment of most frontline workers quite accurately. What
126 norcal : Probably, I can see it already You should be happy you have a job in this economy! Well, my contract is going to last at least 5 years, I might in fa
127 TVNWZ : The problem is more often then not labor doesn't want to work with management. What typically happens is that someone in the union will decide that t
128 Post contains images EA CO AS : I've personally seen this several times, where union chief shop stewards or general chairs have suddenly decided they didn't like the agreed-upon int
129 Atlwest1 : I think at this point people in the thread need to agree to disagree. Unless you really know and or have read the FA and Pilot contracts at FL there i
130 Post contains images norcal : I have every once in awhile, they are a good group of people. I'm done with this discussion, it seems that those who have never been in the industry
131 MaverickM11 : Perhaps, but the number of airline employees just hit a new low recently
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