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Could This Be The 737 Replacement?  
User currently offlinecosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 649 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 34376 times:

http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/archives/206212.asp

MIT claims 70% fuel saving.

60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedl767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 34194 times:

Honestly I doubt it will be the next replacement. Maybe after the Y1 we will see a radical design like this but I doubt it will be the next 737. The problem with this type of design is how much more difficult is it to provide maintenance on the engines, how do airports have to change to accept this type of design (it's one thing to have to change for a few 787s but to change for a 737 replacement would become very expensive). I just think it's too aggressive of an approach right now, the next 737 will probably have a lot in common with the 787 and remain a typical cylindrical shape just made out of composites.

User currently offlinefleabyte From Brazil, joined Jan 2010, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 33930 times:

I think that the 737 replacement (Y1) will be a surprising and risky move by Boeing. I would argue the 787 is more bleeding edge than the A350, started 5 years later and likely real entry into service 5 years after 787.

So Boeing is gonna keep pushing, forever new frontiers - how you like this one Airbus, Bombardier, Embraer, China, India, Yawn?

It will be good for all, just when new standard design AL jets are getting ready to get into the AB/Boeing prime market, Boeing will announce a BWB MIT double bubble of trouble.


User currently offline0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 33928 times:

Look at this like you look at concept cars... they look really nice and can get 300 miles on a fart but they won't be able to be put into mass production for many many years and when they do get put into production they never look like their concept design and don't preform as well either.

Also, when you see statements like "...could carry 180 passengers on domestic flights, with more room than a Boeing 737-800.", just forget it. The airlines are not going to want any "extra" space unless they can shove a seat in to it.



"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 33236 times:

I hope the design looks "in the flesh" to me that thing looks ugly as hell...


Our Returning Champion
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3483 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 32812 times:
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the engine placement will require a lot of selling... however coupled with concepts like the blended wing, airlines will eventually have the equipment to deal with it as easily as todays under wing engines.. spinning fuselage barrels in that shape may pose a problem however a rectangular cross section is do-able. transporting th fuselage by rail might pose a problem, so here would be more modified transporters. That rules out the Renton plant for final assembly since the LCF's could not land there... All in all, I'd like to see it.

User currently offlinejimbobjoe From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 653 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 32210 times:

70% efficiency would be amazing. If you could get even 40% efficiency I don't think it matters how ugly or airport-incompatible the airplane would be, passengers would use it, and airports would adapt.

User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 32064 times:

It looks like the double tube is used to get enough width with smaller cross section, so there is no belly left for cargo. No belly and no cargo is a part of these savings. But if anything like 70% fuel saving is realistic, that is a killer, and if these concepts are realistic for 2035 as the contest demands, then they are a good excuse against an intermediate new narrow body that would only have a life span of 15 years.

So I take they are part of the propaganda show to justify NO new narrow body around 2020, but to just make a 737NNG as response to the A320NG.


User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 31997 times:



I've seen these double tube (even more for BWBs) for some time now.

I wonder if you replace the double tube for a single circular tube (and make it a bit longer if required), would it be much heavier and have more drag.. ?


User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1568 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 31775 times:
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Looks like a standard university project that uses Microsoft excel to work everyhing out from the equations in the text books but neglects things like where the gear goes and how you get bags on it and other things that exist in the real world that make it not work. Sorry for my synacism, I have seen too many things like this.

Fred


User currently offlinepliersinsight From United States of America, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 29708 times:

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 9):
Looks like a standard university project that uses Microsoft excel to work everyhing out from the equations in the text books but neglects things like where the gear goes and how you get bags on it and other things that exist in the real world that make it not work. Sorry for my synacism, I have seen too many things like this.

Fred

Not to metion how something like that is going to handle in a stiff gusty crosswind with those big flat surface areas, assuming the big fat flat lifting body doesn't gide a few miles in ground effect before touchdown...


User currently offlineSU184 From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 235 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 28597 times:

Well I remember Airbus visited the idea of horizontal double bubble in the concept phase of the A380 - then A3XX - and didn't go for it technically from several regards including emergency evacuation, the roller coaster effect of passengers seated on the window seats during turns and several other issues, on the aerodynamic side it would be superior but the practical passenger carrying planes, maybe not yet.

User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 28433 times:

Quoting SU184 (Reply 11):
Well I remember Airbus visited the idea of horizontal double bubble in the concept phase of the A380 - then A3XX


Henry Lam (kaktusdigital) did an (as usual quick and stunning) artist impression on this P500..

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-Oqf_vOman...Tw/s1600-h/Airbus_P500_concept.JPG

It would have been a cargo game changer, 4 LD3s side by side...


User currently offlineSU184 From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 235 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 28338 times:

That's a nice photo, but with those windows it would have been a passenger aircraft too, they were talking of two A340 sections side-by-side.

User currently offlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1334 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 28098 times:

I think the other problem flagged up was that those seated in the middle would be a long way from a window. Not sure if LED and mood lighting could mitigate the lack of natural light, but I certainly would not want to be stuck that far from a window, especially on a longer flight.

User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1560 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 28040 times:

We have recently seen yet "another" new 180 seater design from Airbus.Interestingly this is the company that is NOT going to produce a new aircraft! But nothing for a very long time from Boeing -the company that is! For me (at least) their new design (I personally don't believe they will re-engine a 50 year old design myself - I know others disagree) is possibly the most exciting thing to happen for a very long time.

The very idea that Airbus feels it has the right to "warn" Boeing against producing a new aircraft - and then to "advise" them that it would be obsolete in a decade - just takes my breath away.Boeing has always pushed the fronteers and I believe will continue to do so.Just how is the question!

With regard to the MIT design(s).The BWB is "old hat".Boeing are already on their second flying prototype.We all know the savings that can be made and we all know it works best on larger rather than smaller aircraft.So absolutly nothing new there.Indeed one day (10-15 years time?) ,I believe,Y3 will be a BWB.

As for the double tube.I am totally at a loss.In what way is it a "lifting body" design.It would be a wing with the worst aspect ratio on earth.And even if there was a pressure differential betwwen top and bottom surfaces,most of it would "leak" around the sides - nope don't understand it - erhaps others do.As Keejse says if you want to go in that direction then use a wider (low drag) tube - indeed they already have one in the 787.

Just got to wait I guess until Boeing is good and ready.


User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 27832 times:

Quoting SU184 (Reply 13):
That's a nice photo, but with those windows it would have been a passenger aircraft too, they were talking of two A340 sections side-by-side.

It would have been 14 abreast + having amazing cargo capability. I wonder if it would have worked though. Few routes require 500+ seats and enormous cargo capasity to be off loaded at the gate.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-Oqf_vOman...vElW_04-pbU/s1600-h/AirbusP500.jpg

I agree Boeing will probably be the first to come up with a new narrowbody. Not because they like to be innovative though. I think CSeries and pimped A320/A321s need to be matched & the 737 can't do that job.


User currently offlineflybyguy From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 25405 times:

I think any changes in the fundamental ways manufacturers build commercial aircraft will change gradually because of certification concerns. That is one of the reasons why the 7E7 went to a more conventional design. The MIT concept, IMHO will NOT be the 737 replacement. Most likely the 737 replacement will incorporate efficiency lessons learned from 787 and current versions of the 737. IMHO i think because the 757 replacement market is huge and largely unsatisfied with current offerings, Boeing may try to compete directly with Bombardier, Mitsubishi, Embraer and Comac and perhaps satisfy 757 replacement requirements with the same family of aircraft.


"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
User currently offlineJAL From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 5083 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 24923 times:

Looks interesting but not sure that the design Boeing would choose.


Work Hard But Play Harder
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3483 posts, RR: 27
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 22176 times:
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A couple ideas about the problems mentioned in the above posts

there would have to be some space under the passenger floor for keel beam(s) and mechanical equipment (air handling, RAM turbine etc...) that would allow enough space from landing gear.

cargo could go in the aft end on the passenger deck. and those window deprived people over the wings, move first class there since the trend seems to be those no personal contact enclosures and lay flat beds. Heck from some of the pictures I've seen many seem to face the a/c centerline and not the window anyway

Increase the main cabin doors to double width and place them just forward of the wing so passengers can disembark two abreast.


User currently offlinejayspilot From United States of America, joined May 2001, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 21674 times:

the EMB 170/190 uses the double bubble vertically. Since I first saw this plan back in 2004 I wondered if it was possible to jumbo size this and turn it horizontal. I don't have the numbers but I know the reason the embraer went with the double bubble was that it was much more efficient then the same cabin volume and cargo space as one cylinder.

I'm a child of the late 70's and can imagine that someone 30-40 years older then me is blown away by what is flying today. I'm saying this b/c 45 years ago the passenger jet age for narrow bodies was just beginning and I can only imagine what the next half century will bring. I can imagine that the 737-800 or Airbus will look as old as the DC-6 or 7 does now and if this is the jet that delivers the efficiences we will need to keep flying I'm interested to see where things go. Whatever is the next big leap I would imagine some sort of lifting body would be used


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6878 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 21215 times:

I think Boeing knows more about designing aircraft than MIT. I do not believe the 70% figure; but I do not know enough about aerodynamics to spot the problems, although slower speed will account for a significant part of it (and whether or not this will be acceptable remains to be determined by the market). The conventional tube with wings has been around a long time because it is so far the most efficient configuration when all facets of operation are included, which includes manufacturing. A lot of people have been seduced by the siren song of the canard, but it has not succeeded commercially because its advantages are outweighed by substantial disadvantages. Big companies are generally reluctant to adopt ideas from outside their organization, but the stakes are so high here that if this has genuine merit I'm sure Boeing will consider it. But my suspicion is that there are substantial drawbacks that the MIT guys have not seen, and Boeing will. But that is just my guess.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineSolarFlyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 1042 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 20757 times:

These are tremendous designs. They hit the nail on the head with the fuselage. One of the smartest and most efficient things that can be done is to use the fuselage for lift. I think the days of a tube may be numbered. Even if its not a flying wing design, there are ways of flattening the fuselage for extra lift. It will force a redesign of cargo pallets but eventually it will be worth it.

User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6144 posts, RR: 35
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 20346 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 7):
But if anything like 70% fuel saving is realistic, that is a killer, and if these concepts are realistic for 2035 as the contest demands, then they are a good excuse against an intermediate new narrow body that would only have a life span of 15 years.

They also designed a "conventional" version that would be 50% more efficient and could be built in the "near-term".

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 21):
The conventional tube with wings has been around a long time

It is a vertical double bubble that has been around a long time... of Boeing's aircraft only the 777 is a circular fuse, the rest are vertical double bubbles.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3483 posts, RR: 27
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 18076 times:
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the Boeing design for the C-5 competition was a large double bubble, like a C-97 on steroids.

25 railker : True for using the fuselage to help with lift. Makes me think of the Shorts 360. Flying Shed, Flying Schoolbus, none of the nicknames for it are prett
26 Post contains links and images keesje : Same concept Another concept being discussed in the article, from a few yrs back Boeing presentation
27 Post contains images EA772LR : If double bubbles are more efficient, than why did Boeing chose not to continue with a double bubble? I hear a lot of folks talk about the wasted cro
28 airproxx : Heehh... Hope not... Otherwise aviation glamour will be gone then...
29 SU184 : Its used now as crew rest area, many airlines opted for this feature, Boeing even thought of offering the airlines this space as rest area for premiu
30 Post contains links and images keesje : Even with todays technology a substantial fuel reduction could be achieved in short haul markets, at a price. Just by optimizing everything for less b
31 kanban : Today Boeing renewed it's lease for properties at the Renton Municipal Airport for 40 years.. That tells us something about the 737 replacement... the
32 tdscanuck : Not necessarily. Renton is also on the shores of Lake Washington, easily accessible by barge. You're also assuming that it all comes as a complete ba
33 kanban : 1. it's too shallow, 2. it's adjacent to a salmon river so no dredging would be allowed 3. the state's shoreline management limitations and the Army
34 parapente : The above post is interesting as it sugests - if I understand it correctly.That any replacement 737 will either be a tube of similar dimentions (proba
35 bikerthai : If the 737 replacement fuselage is made the same way as the 787, buy stock in the fiber placement machine maker. Imagine rows of these machine spinni
36 cosmofly : If the wings are foldable, even at 5-10% penalty, will allow it to fit nicely into any airport. As for the aerodynamics, I would believe that MIT has
37 EA772LR : So in opinion, Renton doesn't possess the resources to spin out baby 787s?
38 Post contains images nycbjr : It's also possible that Boeing will continue to use Renton to build P-8's (and other 737 mil derivatives), And then build the 737RS elsewhere. Possibl
39 Post contains links and images fxramper : Boeing isn't concerned about future lack of 737 as they announced a increase in production by 2.5 frames a month. article
40 planemaker : From a link posted by TomB in Tech/Ops... Carl Burleson, the director of the Federal Aviation Agency’s Office of Environment and Energy, said that
41 EA772LR : My thoughts as well. What I'm not understanding is though folks acknowledge the parody between the A32X and 737NG now, the same folks somehow think a
42 kanban : definitely... all they have room for is to add wings, tail feathers, landing gear, interiors and engines... If they go composite there is not only no
43 planemaker : In 10 years they could very well be using a very different production method to build fuselages that doesn't include mandrels nor autoclaves. We shou
44 tdscanuck : Fuselages are light...there's no draft problem at that end of the lake. Don't need to dredge. There's already a dock there...nothing will have change
45 planemaker : I know that barges have been towed from Puget Sound all the way to Alaska... so, as you say, no problem.
46 kanban : and what technology do you think they will have in ten years..self replicating nano-bots creating fuselages from air pollution? come on get out of th
47 GolfOscarDelta : With all due respect to MIT and esp Prof. Drela (whom i respect very much), but wouldn't such a configuration be a pain for certification esp w.r.t. f
48 planemaker : ... and airplanes were once considered science fiction.
49 bikerthai : News release says 20 yrs. Enough to cover the P-8 but not adequate for a 737 replacement. What is the largest plane able to land at Renton? Will a 77
50 Post contains images kanban : You've heard the old saying "people who don't read the press are uninformed, those that do are misinformed"... well the first release I saw said 40 y
51 Post contains images EA772LR : Oh yeah, 'parity' is what I meant... Thanks for the correction. It seems you have a good deal of knowledge of the area. Since it seems that the 737 R
52 kanban : I suspect the fuselage will be assembled in Wichita (metal or composite) or Charleston (composite only), the wings if metal - Renton, if composite Ja
53 bikerthai : In this case the lease is a red herring. The lease is for use of the Airport, which can be negotiated as needed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the act
54 tdscanuck : 747. Yes, although it's probably not a great idea. All of the above, plus airlift (helicopter) if you really wanted to. Correct. Tom.
55 parapente : I see today in Flight that the game of cat and mouse goes on with Boeing postboning a decision on the 737 replacement to the (lare?)Autumn. This will
56 peh : I hope they've come up with a clever way to evacuate all of the PAX in under 90 seconds. If I recall correctly, this is one of the main reasons a doub
57 Post contains images FatmirJusufi : Ugly, ugly, ugly... I second that.
58 kanban : I like that Freudian slip... it's what A.net is all about That's what they said when the enclosed cockpit was proposed... Actually the MIT and other
59 United Airline : Is this a narrowbody? BTW the BWB will be a double decker if it comes to a reality right?
60 kanban : the 737 replacement will be a narrow body single deck
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