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Engine Damage Photos Misunderstood As Ash Damage   
User currently offlineBP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 39012 times:

The pictures attached are from a CJ2 engine that was destroyed flying through an ASH CLOUD about (2) weeks ago.




"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2687 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 38988 times:

Where have these pictures been taken, if I may ask? Do I see a German registration in the first picture?

User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1099 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 38916 times:

Do you mind to share more of the story? The way I see it, this does not look particular like ash induced damage.

Totally burned and separated HPT rotor, no glass build up?!


User currently offlineBP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 38888 times:

The pictures were taken on a Gernam registered CJ2 and the ash ingestion happened over Germany. I hope that others will understand the real danger of ash clouds. None of us want to see flight cancellations, but I would rather be delayed a few days then risk my life with the invisible ash cloud.

Cheers,
BP1



"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
User currently offlinespeedygonzales From Norway, joined Sep 2007, 717 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 38804 times:

I guess this is what happens when the shit hits the fan?   


Las Malvinas son Argentinas
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2687 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 38775 times:

Hmm, I am sure the German press would love to have these pictures. They would make a huge scandal about it...

Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 2):
The way I see it, this does not look particular like ash induced damage.

... independant from the fact that this was actually caused by a ash cloud or not.  


User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2870 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 38513 times:

Quoting BP1 (Reply 3):
The pictures were taken on a Gernam registered CJ2

which I presume is this one or similar:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Thomas Ernst - Aviation Arts



[Edited 2010-05-18 12:53:00]

[Edited 2010-05-18 12:59:56]


I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineBP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 38327 times:

Buyant Ukhaa - I believe that is the particular CJ2. I am going to check serial number records for CJ2's based in Germany later today. If anyone has more information, it would be appreciated!!

Thanks,
BP1



"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1099 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 38267 times:

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 5):

... independant from the fact that this was actually caused by a ash cloud or not.

All video borescope pictures I have seen recently (Trent 5/7, 80C2B/D, -5A/B) haven't shown such a damage or anything close. I stick to what I have seen in real life, thanks!  
Quoting BP1 (Reply 3):
The pictures were taken on a Gernam registered CJ2 and the ash ingestion happened over Germany. I hope that others will understand the real danger of ash clouds. None of us want to see flight cancellations, but I would rather be delayed a few days then risk my life with the invisible ash cloud.

While KLM lost two engines in ash a few years ago, I cannot remember the engines HPT rotor being blown up like that. And how did the BA 744s engines looked like after the ash ingestion over Java?
Btw., the ash concentration at that time was factor 250 higher per my information.


User currently offlineBP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 38145 times:

The engines on the CJ2 are NOT Trent engines.

BP1



"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1099 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 38101 times:

Quoting BP1 (Reply 9):
The engines on the CJ2 are NOT Trent engines.

They sure aren't, but what has that to do with anything? I never claimed they are. 80C2 is not Trent, CFM56 is not Trent.

I am just wondering how a single ash encounter would kill of the whole HPT rotor with blade separation and erosion down to the blade platform (!!!).
But hey, I might miss something here...


User currently offlineBP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 38052 times:

The plane is a 2007 YOM and holds serial number 525A-0358. The plane was only a few years old and most corporate aircraft do not fly more then 400-500 hours a year. Also, any new Citation is under warranty for the 1st five (5) years of service - and the engines would be under warranty too for such a new plane. I wonder if this breaks the warranty on the aircraft?

BP1



"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10881 posts, RR: 37
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 37893 times:

Quoting BP1 (Reply 3):
I would rather be delayed a few days then risk my life with the invisible ash cloud.

I agree with you 100 percent.

Have a look at this document issued by Airbus on the danger of flying through ash clouds.

http://www.airbus.com/store/mm_repos...ect_file_FLT_OPS-OPS_ENV-SEQ06.pdf

I hope the civil aviation authorities will take all necessary measures so no accidents will happen because of the ash cloud as it looks very well like the mighty volcano will keep erupting for a while longer.



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24803 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 37812 times:

Quoting BP1 (Thread starter):
The pictures attached are from a CJ2 engine that was destroyed flying through an ASH CLOUD about (2) weeks ago.

Why is there no news story about this incident which seems fairly major? Do you have a link? I would assume the aircraft in question would have declared an emergency.


User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4488 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 37651 times:

I'm really wondering how ash damage would cause a catastrophic uncontained turbine failure.


I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineBP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 37652 times:

Sometimes, more than often, we like to keep news in the "corporate aviation" world very very very low key which is probably why this did not hit the media. There are some VERY VERY tight Non-Disclosure Agreements in the industry and this is not the kind of story you want to leak if you work for the owner of the aircraft.

BP1

[Edited 2010-05-18 13:26:45]


"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1099 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 37533 times:

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 14):
I'm really wondering how ash damage would cause a catastrophic uncontained turbine failure.

Just for the record, if anybody hasn't recognized it: I am with you!

Quoting BP1 (Reply 15):
There are some VERY VERY tight Non-Disclosure Agreements in the industry and this is not the kind of story you want to leak if you work for the owner of the aircraft.

Thats fine. And also there are regulatory requirements for german registered aircraft about incidents and accidents to report to BFU. An uncontained turbine damage certainly qualifies as incident. So I am sure we will find an incident report soon on BFU homepage?


User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 36494 times:

I received these pictures in a chain mail (yeah, one of those very scandalous and probably fake ones) about a month ago. I'm still not totally convinced these pictures are what they claim to be, though there seems to be some considerable erosion. I would like to see what the #2 engine looks like.

I do recall seeing some pictures of confirmed ash erosion on some PW engines off of a 747. It was VERY different looking and you could see how the ash melted and flowed like molten goop around the stators and it looked just like dirty glass.


User currently offlineliedetectors From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 35650 times:

Quoting BP1 (Thread starter):
The pictures attached are from a CJ2 engine that was destroyed flying through an ASH CLOUD about (2) weeks ago.

FALSE!!!

Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 2):
The way I see it, this does not look particular like ash induced damage.

You are correct.


I work for a highly reputable airframer and we were dicussing these photos at work. My engine people tell me that ash could not cause this kind of damage. Flying through an ash cloud would do nothing but suck glass pellets into the engine. The glass would reach the combuster, melt due to the high temps and could fling melted glass everywhere. These pics do not show such damage. At best, the combustor would get choked due to the glass and would flame out.

Five minute of googling resulted in this....Dated March 1, 2010 - 3 weeks before the start of the eruption...

From the NTSB website...
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?...302X25146&ntsbno=CEN10RA135&akey=1

QED



If it was said by us, then it must be true.
User currently offlineCitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2421 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 35210 times:

Quoting liedetectors (Reply 18):
Quoting BP1 (Thread starter):
The pictures attached are from a CJ2 engine that was destroyed flying through an ASH CLOUD about (2) weeks ago.

FALSE!!!

These pictures and the engine damage are NOT DUE TO VOLCANIC ASH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know for a fact that the engine damage is NOT from a volcanic ash event. It is an engine diffuser failure. I work for Cessna and have this fact confirmed by Customer Service, Cessna Engineering Propulsion. This is a hoax that has been spreading on the internet. I have seen these photos a couple of weeks ago and have confirmed that it is NOT DUE TO VOLCANIC ASH.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet and on A.net.



Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
User currently offlineAFGMEL From Australia, joined Jul 2007, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 35046 times:

This is damn peculiar. I can't think of the motivation for asserting the damage was caused by ash when it wasn't. Maybe I am naive. If so, I would love to be enlightened.


B 727-44/200 732/3/4/8/9 767-3 742/3/4, 772/3, A319/20/21 332/333 342/3 , DC3/4/10, F28/50/100, ATR72
User currently offlinesasd209 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Oct 2007, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 34997 times:

Quoting BP1 (Reply 15):
Sometimes, more than often, we like to keep news in the "corporate aviation" world very very very low key which is probably why this did not hit the media. There are some VERY VERY tight Non-Disclosure Agreements in the industry and this is not the kind of story you want to leak if you work for the owner of the aircraft.

BP1

Which is why you decided to post this? Contradictory at best.


User currently offlineKFlyer From Sri Lanka, joined Mar 2007, 1226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 32361 times:

I am one of those who believed it was too risky to fly within ash. But this certainly does not look like ash damage. The interior could have been damaged, but the exterior ? The aircraft must have gone right over the top of the volcano then. Plus, I rarely trust a chain mail.


The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 31443 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 17):
I would like to see what the #2 engine looks like.

Yep, me too!!!
One thing is sure: this engine hasn't been destroyed because of volcanic ashes AT ALL!!

Quoting BP1 (Reply 3):
I hope that others will understand the real danger of ash clouds. None of us want to see flight cancellations, but I would rather be delayed a few days then risk my life with the invisible ash cloud.

You jumped in blindly! Thanks for this priceless post, for all the wrong reasons!



If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
User currently offlineBP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 30321 times:

Hi All - I am terribly sorry as this was sent to me from an associate at another reputable private aviation company and they said it was from an ash cloud. Please accept my apologies for this and am very sorry for the incorrect statement from this person within that company. I was under the impression that this person was trustworthy and correct and I just could not resist to put up the pictures, that was wrong of me. Again, I am very sorry and had no idea this was from a "chain e-mail' I would not put up something under false assumption on purpose. Again, I am very very sorry for any confusion this created and will spend more time confirming pictures in the future.

This could be the first public apology on airliners.net

Regardless, I am glad I was not on that flight - would have made for a very scary few minutes before getting safely on the ground.

Again, my apologies.

Respectfully,
BP1

[Edited 2010-05-18 19:47:21]

[Edited 2010-05-18 19:58:32]

[Edited 2010-05-18 20:01:25]


"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
25 DonnieCS : I'm with you all, I've boroscoped a lot of engines and doubt that is the result of ash.
26 hausauflennon : I've just seen the thread and was about to make a comment to the effect that i'd be horrified if I were in that aircraft...then I saw all of the back
27 Post contains images TSS : I'll cast a dissenting vote on that; I think this thread should remain as it provides a good example of what ash damage DOES NOT look like. However,
28 hausauflennon : I agree...and to educate persons like myself on the real effects this thing can have on a jet's engines...I was fooled, having no aeronautical/engine
29 BP1 : Dear Fellow Aviation Colleagues - If I could change the tag line to "Incredible Engine Damage NOT From Ash CIoud" I would - but I am not able to go ba
30 KFlyer : BP1, it is alright and I believe this ( mistake ) is no big deal. Everyone makes mistakes. This is a reputed aviation forum where best of the industry
31 Post contains images TSS : On the contrary, you were sent a great topic to post in an aviation forum (complete with photos! ), and you did so in the best place I can think of t
32 AirIndia : Apology accepted. Now relax. To err is human, to forgive is divine! Let the thread be active as it has shed a lot of light on issues re ash cloud dam
33 PITingres : So the only thing you really goofed on IMHO was failing to say that right up front. I know it sounds like / feels like weasel wording to always be sa
34 JPuentes : SO ill ask this, what is the damage from? SRY im not the tech type so i dunno.
35 Post contains links AirIndia : You can get some info on these links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLM_Flight_867 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9#Aftermath It
36 Post contains images macsog6 : It may be divine, but it violates company policy at most air carriers. BP1, this is a discussion forum and you sparked (no pun intended) a lively dis
37 bonusonus : BP1, I'd recommend editing your first post, just to eliminate any confusion about where those photos came from.
38 zeke : This event occurred at about 8am local on March 01, 2010 in the climb phase with VMC. Flight was from STR to BRE for maintenance, flight returned to S
39 hugoandres1984 : Wow. That why airplanes and volcanos dont match
40 Larshjort : I can confirm she is flying again I caught her at HAM a week ago. And why people should always read the thread.
41 Post contains links CitationJet : Statement from Cessna on these photos in question: From Aviation International News: Engine Damage Not Caused by Volcanic Ash Dramatic photos circulat
42 trigged : Actually, not sure an apology is needed. You were given information by a reputable source and you came here to inform and/or verify. I think that is
43 777jaah : Thanks. That piece of information really solved the "mistery" for good. I hope he reads your post, which I doubt.
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