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UA Protests Exclusion From HND Awards  
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8502 times:

Since DOT makes "tentative" awards, could a protest like this have any traction? What are the precedents?

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-mar...lusion-from-new-tokyo-route-awards


Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3208 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8430 times:

Of course they do. I don't think they quite know what it's like to lose a slot bid for route authority to the Orient      

User currently offlinebiggsfo From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2924 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8108 times:

Not unexpected. I think they raise a valid argument even though I don't think the feds will change the awards.

User currently onlinevin2basketball From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7937 times:

I think UA/SFO provided more benefit than HA/HNL, but....

maybe it was a political message so...


User currently offlineJBAirwaysFan From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1005 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 22 hours ago) and read 7452 times:

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 3):
maybe it was a political message so...

Either that or the DOT saying that they don't want UA and CO to merge. You know, one of those subliminal messages.



In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
User currently offlinecrosswinds21 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 22 hours ago) and read 7336 times:

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 4):
Either that or the DOT saying that they don't want UA and CO to merge. You know, one of those subliminal messages.

Or it could just be that there weren't enough awards to go around. HA got one because they are the new entrant. DL supposedly got two because they have no alliance partner in Tokyo (or something like that). That only left one award. It happened to go to AA from NYC. Someone had to get one, and someone had to get left out. That's all.


User currently offlineworldtraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 21 hours ago) and read 7290 times:

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 5):
DL supposedly got two because they have no alliance partner in Tokyo (or something like that). That only left one award. It happened to go to AA from NYC. Someone had to get one, and someone had to get left out. That's all.
DL also chose to use 744s for 3 of its 4 applications and the two it won involved 744s. The DOT made clear that given the limited number of slots it favored large aircraft.
UA could have used a 744 on its application and even though they are configured with fewer seats than DL's, UA's chances would have been much higher.

Further, UA and CO don't have to merge in order to become one unit in Japan; when the US - Japan Skies goes into effect, the HND slots become avaialble and Star can obtain access to HND via NH. They will have the same two slots and will share revenues regardless of whether CO and UA merge or not; UA and CO's Japan operation under the JV will be one regardless of a merger.

[Edited 2010-05-19 16:56:41]

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22992 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 7127 times:

Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 6):
Further, UA and CO don't have to merge in order to become one unit in Japan; when the US - Japan Skies goes into effect, the HND slots become avaialble and Star can obtain access to HND via NH. They will have the same two slots and will share revenues regardless of whether CO and UA merge or not; UA and CO's Japan operation under the JV will be one regardless of a merger.

  

There were eight HND awards to go around, and assuming an award to HA seven for the three alliances to split. The award gives three to Oneworld, two to Skyteam, and two to Star. That seems like a reasonable allocation to me.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25346 posts, RR: 49
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 7063 times:

If you look at DOT filings, other airlines have filed protest comments as well.

Delta - Thanks the department for its two awards, however says its disappointed its preferred the SEA gateway was not selected.
Hawaiian -- DOT failed to award it the 2nd frequency it was seeking in the single largest US-Hawaii market which deserves additional capacity and competition.
United - SFO provides more benefits to greater portion of the Western US then anything DL can generate from LAX.
Continental - Its EWR proposal is far superior then AA/JFK, while GUM is a large US-Japan market aswell.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5271 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 7018 times:

CO filed their objection yesterday. They requested that they be given backup authority to fly EWR-HND if either DL or AA fail to start their awarded DTW-HND and JFK-HND service. Additionally, they are also requesting that the backup authority allow them to fly EWR-HND if either carrier chooses to operate the flight with equipment other than a 744 or a 772 respectively. They have also requested backup authority for CO Mike if HA fails to being HNL-HND. IMHO, CO's request is not likely to be granted, at least not as CO wants it to be granted.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
The award gives three to Oneworld, two to Skyteam, and two to Star. That seems like a reasonable allocation to me.

Exactly. In the end, one of the 3 alliances ends up with one additional slot. Oneworld was awarded the 3rd slot given their presently smaller presence in the US-Asia market.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineworldtraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 6999 times:

Nothing earthshattering in what is being posted... the DOT knew exactly what it was doing and could have predicted the objections that would be raised.....

The HND 2010 route case gavel should come down any minute and this case will be closed.


User currently offlineAloha73g From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2362 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 19 hours ago) and read 6836 times:

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 3):
I think UA/SFO provided more benefit than HA/HNL, but....
Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 5):
HA got one because they are the new entrant.

HNL-Tokyo is the largest US-Japan market, by a wide margin. I don't think there was any way that HNL wouldn't have gotten a flight, whether it was on HA or DL (or UA, had they asked for it)...though HA obviously won out as it is a new entrant.

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4272 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 18 hours ago) and read 6665 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):

United - SFO provides more benefits to greater portion of the Western US then anything DL can generate from LAX

Even UA operating LAX instead of DL provides more Benefits to the west coast than DL. As I said before, if UA put in for the LAX service, they could have had it, but by focusing on SFO, and not including a 747, they shot themselves in the foot.

I do believe that LAX should have a frequency, but UA and AA are better carriers to operate it than DL because both carriers (UA especially), provide far more connecting opportunities than DL does. The fact that this is a second DL frequency with both UA and CO shut out is troubling though.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22992 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 18 hours ago) and read 6611 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 12):
The fact that this is a second DL frequency with both UA and CO shut out is troubling though.

Why? With ATI approved, UA and CO will effectively have two frequencies - just like DL.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineBlueman87 From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 17 hours ago) and read 6266 times:

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 4):
Either that or the DOT saying that they don't want UA and CO to merge. You know, one of those subliminal messages.

i thought that way to



B6 T5 JFK DL T2/3 JFK
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2896 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 16 hours ago) and read 5866 times:
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Do passengers protests to the DoT make a difference? UA could turn to it's huge Asia Milage Plus consumers to petition like when they filed Washington DC to Beijing a few years ago!

And, where would UA get 2 747-400's from? Aren't their 25 747's pretty busy?



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9398 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 15 hours ago) and read 5519 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 12):

Even UA operating LAX instead of DL provides more Benefits to the west coast than DL. As I said before, if UA put in for the LAX service, they could have had it, but by focusing on SFO, and not including a 747, they shot themselves in the foot.

UA wouldn't not have gotten LAX over DL with a 777. AA didn't, UA wouldn't have. IMO had they asked for SFO-HND on a 744 they would have gotten a slot. DL's DTW slot or HA's HNL slot.
Oh and BTW you know what your are saying doesn't make alot of since........"by focusing on SFO" Ummm dude that is UA hud to Asia, LAX isn't, kinda like saying DL should start CVG-LHR and cut JFK-LHR.  
Quoting VC10er (Reply 15):

Nothing would matter, AFAIK the DOT has never changed its mind. UA isn't getting a slot, CO isn't getting a slot, DL isn't getting SEA, HA isn't getting a 2nd HNL slots.


BTW what did AA say?



yep.
User currently offlineworldtraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 13 hours ago) and read 5198 times:

Quoting VC10er (Reply 15):
Do passengers protests to the DoT make a difference?

there is a certain a.net member who has repeatedly filed objections to a certain airline's route cases w/o any indication of success... it is a democratic process but some people's filings clearly stick out.


User currently offlinecarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2954 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 13 hours ago) and read 5161 times:

Everybody assumes NH will operate transpacific flights from HND but this is far from being certain.
NH has yet to announce any long-haul flights from HND.


User currently offlineDFWEagle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1071 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 9 hours ago) and read 4521 times:

Quoting carpethead (Reply 18):
Everybody assumes NH will operate transpacific flights from HND but this is far from being certain.
NH has yet to announce any long-haul flights from HND.

They may not have made any announcement, but they do have plans for TPAC flights from HND. In fact, ANA is protesting the decision of the Japanese government to award two slots each to JAL and ANA. They are arguing that the government should give all four slot pairs to them, and none to JAL. I don’t think that will happen, but I do think ANA will use whatever slots they do get (at least two).

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nb20100520a1.html



Ryan / HKG
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3208 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 6 hours ago) and read 3653 times:

Quoting VC10er (Reply 15):
And, where would UA get 2 747-400's from? Aren't their 25 747's pretty busy?

UA applied to operate SFO-HND with 777's.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9634 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 6 hours ago) and read 3560 times:

Quoting VC10er (Reply 15):

And, where would UA get 2 747-400's from? Aren't their 25 747's pretty busy?

UA's summer schedule has 747s on LAX-NRT and one of the two SFO-NRT flights. I could see a SFO-NRT downgauge to a 777 on the second flight. There are also flights that are seasonally operated with 747s that could go back to year round 777 flights including: SFO-ICN, SFO-PEK, SFO-PVG, SFO-FRA or ORD-FRA.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):

There were eight HND awards to go around, and assuming an award to HA seven for the three alliances to split. The award gives three to Oneworld, two to Skyteam, and two to Star. That seems like a reasonable allocation to me.

It seems fair as far as alliances go. However it does not seem fair to me to give the largest carrier in the US-Japan market more slots than any other airline. That's the opposite of promoting competition.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22992 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 6 hours ago) and read 3468 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 16):
Oh and BTW you know what your are saying doesn't make alot of since........"by focusing on SFO" Ummm dude that is UA hud to Asia, LAX isn't, kinda like saying DL should start CVG-LHR and cut JFK-LHR.

You do what you have to do to win the route case - like flying 744s even though those may not be the right aircraft for the route. There's nothing wrong with that.

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 19):
They are arguing that the government should give all four slot pairs to them, and none to JAL. I don’t think that will happen, but I do think ANA will use whatever slots they do get (at least two).

DoT presumably doesn't think so either. This award makes no sense unless the Japanese slots are split 2 and 2.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 21):
However it does not seem fair to me to give the largest carrier in the US-Japan market more slots than any other airline. That's the opposite of promoting competition.

But what does "largest carrier" mean? Presumably, AA/JL and UA/CO will be immunized when these routes start, and will be for all intents and purposes one carrier across the Pacific. That makes DL the smallest of the three.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlinevin2basketball From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 5 hours ago) and read 3214 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 21):
And, where would UA get 2 747-400's from? Aren't their 25 747's pretty busy?

They have some parked in the desert. Folks on this board have been saying that those 744s would come out of retirement after the merger.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 21):

It seems fair as far as alliances go. However it does not seem fair to me to give the largest carrier in the US-Japan market more slots than any other airline. That's the opposite of promoting competition.

UA/CO/ANA is larger than DL on US-Japan, and it's about keeping the competitive balance between alliances. Honestly, I'd have liked to see DL-DTW, DL-LAX, DL-HNL, and AA-JFK

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 22):

But what does "largest carrier" mean? Presumably, AA/JL and UA/CO will be immunized when these routes start, and will be for all intents and purposes one carrier across the Pacific. That makes DL the smallest of the three.

I believe AA/JL is smaller than DL across the Pacific


User currently offlinedldtw1962 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 5 hours ago) and read 3173 times:

I don't think UA should get this route. When one of their Star partners flys alot from this airport. That would be ANA.
UA needs to pay attention to working a getting a better image with cleaner planes and nicer flight crews on there currant
routes. I'm not slamming them. However, after flying with them last month to the west coast I was shocked at the way their aircraft looked inside and out. And how the cabin crew acted with me and other passangers.

If anyone should lose a slot it should be AA. With Japan Air flying out of HND as much as ANA.

Just my 2 cents.

Chuck


25 deltal1011man : Because if you look at the ATIs DL is the smallest. That i agree with, but If i were UA i woulod have picked SFO over LAX. SFO is the 2nd(i believe)
26 AADC10 : Protests are filed all of the time and they rarely work. The primary purpose is to probe the selection criteria for future slot bids and possibly use
27 joeljack : This is a BS reason. As a UA 1K and loyalist, I would love to see UA at HND. Remember UA doesn't give you Million Miler Status Miles for flying Star
28 DFWEagle : This may change when UA gets antitrust immunity with ANA and establishes their joint venture. UA/NH plan metal neutrality in the US-Japan market and
29 panamair : He's referring to earning Million-Miler qualification miles with UA - which is restricted to only UA flights. Regular elite-qualifying miles to gain
30 kiwiandrew : Slightly OT , but I find it interesting that so many posters say that the US side based slot allocations on an alliance basis , based on how the slots
31 Cubsrule : Is there an alternate basis for awarding the slots as the US government did? I can't think of one.
32 kiwiandrew : I guess what I am saying is that while I dont know the basis on which the awards were made ( although I would hope that it was on the merits of each
33 Cubsrule : It's pretty clear that the awards were NOT made on merit. How is AA more deserving of a NYC frequency than CO?
34 PIEAvantiP180 : JoelJack, it is not DOT job to help you get more FF miles by avarding UA a flight to HND. Your gripe is a personal problem and not a valid complaint.
35 CALPSAFltSkeds : UA has six 744s parked, with rumor that one will be returning to service. That leaves 5 more that could operate the route. I guess you should shoot f
36 sirloin : I'd presume it may be due to the amount of US-Tokyo service for the alliances. CO/UA/NH is larger, if I'm not mistaken, than AA/JL, and therefore in
37 Cubsrule : That was sort of my point - alliances are the only way to explain it.
38 deltal1011man : I believe someone said in the UA mod thread that it is coming out but one more is going back in. So its a net of zero. (but it does say that UA is at
39 United1 : One is going back in to the desert the end of this summer...the one that just came out of the desert is in Korea getting the new cabin refitted.
40 apodino : I think you misunderstood what I said, and the CVG-JFK comparison is apples and oranges. I am well aware that SFO is UA's biggest pacific hub. That b
41 deltal1011man : Ok got that now. Who knows........was there anyone on this bored that thought UA wasn't going to get SFO-HND on a 777? I would bet the answer is no.
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