PRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1128 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15316 times:
90% of AA 18,000 FAs voted and almost 97% voted in favor of authorizing the union (APFA) to go on strike when the Railway Labor Act permits. Keep in mind, both parties are currently meeting under mediation. If the FA union is released into a 30day cooling off period and no agreement is reached; they are legally authorized to go on strike...no date yet.
fxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7186 posts, RR: 86
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15191 times:
They voted to authorized a strike...mediation hasn't even given a release for the 30 day cooling off. I understand their frustrations, but all labor groups at AA are in the same boat. They won't strike.
The only way American could survive a strike is by having replacements ready to go so that there is no disruption in service and I don't think that is going to happen.
Even a strike lasting only a day would be more than I think the airline could handle. I think that AA will end up filing for bankruptcy if the FA's try to strike.
ckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5167 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 14543 times:
What about the former TWA F/As. They feel that they were horribly mistreated by the APFA and almost all are willing to cross a picket line and fly, or so I've read. While AA won't comment, you have to assume that the APFA knows that AA could get a sizable number of flights in the air with former TWA F/As.
If AA can operate its important routes, such as Europe, Asia, Latin America, ORD-LGA, the trans-cons, etc., it may be able to weather a strike.
PRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1128 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 14188 times:
Ex-TWA FAs voted and agreed to be integrated into AA prior to AA acquiring TWA under the terms some of them still dispute. It was TWA's FA union IAM who agreed to integrate ex-TWA FAs into AA they way they did...then came 9/11, bad luck for everyone and especially for ex-TWA FAs.
Ex-TWA FAs and AA Foreign Nationals (around 700 FN's) are not enough to operate even 10% of AA flights in the event of a strike. Keep in mind ex-TWA FAs are not even qualified on some fleet types or overwater flying under AA metal; they would need to be re-trained at least on specific fleet types. AA would need to hire trainers and operate its FA training facility 24/7; 7 days a week for months to replace its entire FA force (18,000) That would take months and even over a year to train 18,000 new FAs to replace AA strikers...it will not happen. Can AA afford to burn all that $ and energy and damage its customer base rather than signing a fair contract? It would be business suicide and wether the FAs get what they want the damage to AA would be significant; it would disrupt its entire schedule. 97% of 90% of FAs voted yes to strike so I don't think many would even cross the picket line at least at the beginnning....AA is better signing a contract with its FAs, close that page and move forward; expand, grow. AA is too busy trying to settle these contracts...it is taking too long. AA needs to focus on improving its service, aircraft interiors and enhancing its alliances w/BA/IB/JL or let the competition Skyteam and Star take over...
Is AA Management willing to risk all that??? AA can certainly come up with ways to afford a competitive industry standard contract. Unhappy FAs or FAs "just going through the motions" do not guarantee good and corteous service either...AA Top Management can afford $$$$$ million dollar bonuses but not a FA contract? Cabin interiors fixed with duct tape when Management gets bonuses???? There is something wrong with that picture...
I do hope the FAs get what they want and or go on strike.
So management should just get "bullied" over because a union thinks they should get what they want or run a company to the ground? I'm glad they are thinking about the other tens of thousands of employees..
ckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5167 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 14030 times:
You realize that if you go on strike, you could potentially cost the jobs of not just the F/As, but the pilots, mechanics, CSAs, and white collar employees at AA, and maybe Eagle. Certainly, you will wipe out the shareholders, including me. And you will cause a lot of problems for people who want to get from A to B.
I live in Chicago, and I hate flying United. I swore off United in 1996, because I thought their F/As were no where near the level of professionalism that F/As at American exhibit every day.
And a lot of AA's vendors will get stiffed in a Chapter 7 filing.
You're that mad at AA management that you're willing to inflict financial problems on people well beyond the employees of AA?
Less than 1300 eligeble for recall. Many who have stated they would NOT scab.
First, you're forgetting about the F/As that are off the recall list. Second, where are you getting your information? My father worked for a Fortune 50 company for 37 years. He was a union member the first 15 years and in labor relations the last 7. He learned both as a union member and as a negotiator for the company that unions leaders are just as willing to distort the truth as are managers.
If the APFA is trying to tell you that the threat of former TWA flight attendants crossing the picket line is slight, I don't think I would believe your leadership. Remember that United hired replacement pilots in the 1980s in anticipation of a strike and managed to keep planes in the air. When Northwest's mechanics went on strike several years ago, Northwest simply farmed out maintenance work. If AA management believes that the mediator is seriously considering releasing both sides into cooling-off, I would watch to see how many unfamilar faces wind up at the training facility undergoing refresher training on the 757, 767, and MD-80.
You still have a pension, which is no longer the norm among the legacy carriers, as well as many Fortune 500 companies. And if AA goes out of business, your income will be $0. Do you really want to start at the bottom of someone else's seniority list, flying a bad reserve schedule and not getting 1st, 2nd, or 3rd vacation choices?
Don't think that concessions are unique to the airline industry. In late 2002, my wife's then employer, a tech firm, announced that incentive bonuses were being eliminated as a cost-saving move. Of course, senior management kept their bonuses.
mauiman31 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 450 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 13964 times:
AA and APFA are back in negotiations this week in DC. Unions initiating "an authorization to strike vote" from membership during negoitations is a common strategy -- not just with APFA. There would be a lot that would have to be authorized by NMB and others before a strike could legally happen. APFA asked for a release to strike in Feb and NMB sent everyone back to the table this month. The NMB will take its time again if talks break down again this time. And if it would come to an authorized strike date -- the federal government i.e. the Pez can step in and send everyone back to the table again sighting an AA strike would be too disruptive to the economy, etc. It's all very complicated.
So my naive hope -- as an AA fan and customer and as someone who genuinely respects and values FA's and what they do . . . I just pray they can work it out. I don't want to see another legacy carrier go down the tubes.
: The management aren't so highly skilled if they haven't managed to explain why their prior sacrifices have been rewarded and yet the sacrifices of th
: Ok...then don't complain if you do...if you feel you are being "hosed" right now, wait until you lose your pensions, job, etc. One of my investors is
: While working in the field... I support AA FAs fight for improvement... Enough is enough, No matter how stressful a CEO's job is..he shouldn't be maki
: Whether profitable or not, Arpey's pay is below that of company's of similar size, and the vast majority of his compensation is variable, meaning the
: Not yet anyway... The TWU at AA has also formally asked to be released into 30 day cooling off period, at which a time they would be free to engage i
: Last I recalled, AA is still funding its pensions..not having to pay that (like many of the legacies have done) would bring AA much closer to profita
: The union is there for it's members, it's the company's job to determine the impact to operations...not the other way around.
: I do know exactly how much that is. It's not much. But, alas, as you well know, it's still more than many at low-fare and post-bankruptcy airlines ar
: I'm quite happy to use stock value, too. LUV was up a bit over 20% in 2009, while AMR was down about 30%. So again, who did a better job? So is Conti
: As to employee owned, don't forget back in the day Cactus was at least partially employee owned also. It was even in their adds. And we know how the U
: Talk is cheap. It is easy to vote for a strike when it is just an exercise in negotiation hyperbole. Now, let's see them actually vote to strike when
: Well then, take us serious. This was NOT a practice vote. There will be NO other vote. The authority has been given to the APFA to call a stike if ne
: I thought Southwest flight attendants make more than AA's???? How would you all like to work only get paid when your office door is closed? Similar to
: Risk, the company going under? I don't follow. They won't let a strike happen. There is simply no way they will be able to replace the amount of F/As
: Dont know if anyone cares to watch the APFA analyist Dan Akins, but he does have some interesting numbers re: AA and AA flight attendant cost. Here is
: Given how long those former TWA flight attendants have been away from American, what are the odds they would come back? I doubt they've been sitting
: Bottom of what seniority list? Not to pick on flyfree there specifically, but these guys won't get hired for this gig else where. Think about it. Pos
: Arpey runs an airline with $20 billion in revenue and 80,000 employees. Kelly runs an airline with $11 billion in revenue and 34,000 employees. Arpey
: That is assuming I would WANT to remain in this industry. Let me assure you, I would NOT. I'm no fool.. I have a plan "B' and it does not involve an
: A) No different than any other airline's policy for F/As. B) No different than the pilots at AA or at other airlines. They start getting paid when th
: I posted that in another thread - it is interesting to watch, and worth hearing the union's side of the story. I must say, though - the amazing thing
: "Given how long those former TWA flight attendants have been away from American, what are the odds they would come back? I doubt they've been sitting
: Exactly! Your flight time pay compensates you for the time you spend working before the door is closed and after it is opened. That's why a new F/A m
: Perhaps, but I doubt that hatred is strong enough to do something as irrational as quitting a stable job, especially in this economy, just to stick i
: It doesn't really matter though. Even if every single ex-TWA FA who is still alive and physical able (and that alone probably excludes several hundre
: Hopefully we will have some positive news tomorrow. Lets hope they come out of negotiations this week with a tentative agreement.
: I doubt it. Glading is a politician, just like every other union President and, well, politician. As such, she's made some pretty steep promises and
: You mean a fair contract? Some of the concessions they made given back to them? A contract that is not full of additional concessions? So do I. Let's
: Weren't the unions given a shot at these bonuses too, and turned them down?
: Well, once again, the APFA's ability to claim a monopoly on the concept of "fair" is nothing short of breathtaking. "Fair" according to who? JetBlue'
: And I am sure you know the many many answers to your own quesiton. You have stated many times on here you have dear friends that are AA fa's, so I wo
: And your words are appreciated. AA ORD
: Why not try and negotiate something better.? Remember its not just todays wages we are fighting for but our future wages as well. By the way, I dont
: Who said you shouldn't try and negotiate something better? I don't think anyone has a problem with the flight attendants union wanting to improve the
: It's the only way...sometimes you just need a clean slate...
: For Domestic we are the middle of the pack for cost. Its only because AA decides to fly 3 classes of service on certain Intl routes (requiring more f
: Some of the comments from AA FAs here leave me stunned. So let me make sure I get this right...the idea of this is to try to negotiate a higher pay ju
: An anouncement will be made soon, the 777 will be reconfigured to B and Y only. Also new configuration for the 767.
: Unlikey, as I have stated my plan "B" does not involve the avaition industry. My plan "B" evolved years ago.. There are many circumstances both inter
: Right I do. Of course it's not acceptable to the union. So APFA's own economist admits that AA's costs are the highest. Then he claims it's because t
: AA had that option then, and they certainly have that option anytime they choose. It's a numbers game you know... AA ORD
: Unfortunate and sad as it is - for all involved - it may just come to that. The airline industry always has been - especially since deregulation. No
: Otherwise, good luck.[/quote] Thank you, I knew you were on our side!!!
: I would not like the way the contract is calculated, but it is included int he pay scale, just indirectly. FWIW, I asked BA crew how their compensati
: I saw an interview, probably a year ago, on CNBC with Robert B. Reich, Clinton's secretary of labor. He argued that CEOs and other senior excutives d
: Well that is a very incorrect assumption on your part. You'd have to be a passenger on board one of my flights to make any assumption about my enthus
: Yet if you read these messsage boards, you will also find people who think AA F/As are a bunch of old hags with surly attitudes. Now, if you can proj
: Here are some key points that we need to remember: *All F/As are easily replaceable. Yes, you have important roles and responsibilities but at the end
: AMR would probably enter Chap 11 before going belly up Cash increase from 3.3 billion to 5 billion + revenue growth of 4.7%? Sure as heck isn't Ameri
: As long as you're on mine, I'm on yours... You need to justify your presence everyday to every customer, and every shareholder. It's foolish and arro
: Wow! The F/As who voted to strike are completely out of touch with reality! A strong argument could be made that AA F/As should be taking a pay cut.
: Talks ended in DC last night at 10:30'ish EST. Progress made, but no contract. APFA wants release. AA wants to go back to the table. Back with the NMB
: Either you missed part of it or you're continuing to drink the Cool AAid. AA's domestic flight attendant costs are BELOW WN, UA, DL and CO. That's ri
: So can you thus explain to me the argument of someone not employed being justified in telling others they need to take a pay cut? Would you agree to
: If I was already over payed in comparison to people at other companies with the same occupation, my employer was about to go belly up, I would take a
: QQ, I've always respected you, and will of course continue to do so, but I have to disagree here. You are picking and choosing the data you want to r
: I have always had and will continue to have high levels of respect for flight attendants but these recent strikes are outright ridiculous. Pilots, ga
: Mostly I agree with what you have said, but honestly, can this be serious? Waiting tables is a far more technically varied field than popping cokes i
: The industry and the competitive landscape are much different now than they were pre-2001. This is where APFA and the F/As are out of touch with real
: I wasn't asking if it was a cut, anything else, or debating it. I clearly asked to have it explained to me how someone who is not employed (but not u
: And yet, WN and CO pay their flight attendants more and they posted profits. And while many on here complain that we're the least productive in the i
: You mean 4.55... and 11.56 in debt... and a profit margin of -7.93%. Nice try. To be blunt, so what? Saying you've given up theoretical money has no
: Your airline is 505 million in the red in the first quarter of 2009. Your CASM is so blatantly inflated that you can't make much of a profit even dur
: And yet, according to the APFA, those flight attendants at WN and CO cost less on a unit basis than the flight attendants AA. And, lest we all forget
: Thats somewhat true. The average waiter probably works in a much more chaotic environment then the average F/A. Of course I don't expect much out of
: Yes, m11stephen, we know what you are saying. In fact, you seem to manage to post it in every thread pertaining to flight attendants. Your opinion, a
: No, in relation to my question, it doesn't 'depend' at all and this is what I am attempting to establish an explanation for (I'm not judging pay, cut
: Unlike AA's flight attendants, I have to maintain my employment based solely on my performance and my employer's continued desire to pay me. Thus, I
: Which is nearly half of what it was just six years ago. Saving the company on average $365 million a year is quite the give back -- over $2 billion s
: And yet, the APFA's own data - from Glading's "heavyweight champion" economist - shows that because AA "overstaffs" (reads: employs more dues-paying
: I looked at AA's April quarterly report and I wonder with so many short term assets why AA is doing so many sale/leaseback arrangements? This 'has a f
: Why would you want to "hoard" cash right before Chapter 11, knowing that all this cash will just be disbursed to creditors in a bankruptcy? Is it - t
: Since cash is typically not distributed to creditors under Ch11, I suspect it is to eliminate the need for expensive DIP financing. WN always hedged.
: Link Hope that link works. If not, just go to the SEC filings link on the 'Investor Relations' section of AA.com, and pull up the latest AMR 10-Q date
: I am so sorry, I just feel the need to point that out a lot since F/As feel that they are highly unappreciated. You're very welcome. I'm just pointin
: Eh...I have heard it too MLD9S.. I had people come up to me on my picket line in 2005 and yell at me saying I should be down helping the people from
: Quoting AirNZ (Reply 28): Interesting comparison......but only valid providing you care to mention that they also don't anywhere close get the same re
: AA did hedge they had to sell thier hedges after 9/11. In so much as WN out managing AA sorry but out lawyered is a better term. Southwest provides e
: Yup. It's not like it's been high times in other industries since 2001 either. The company I worked for had about 12,000 people on 9/11 and was very
: You are paid for all hours you work, its built into your flight time. Its sad that someone who doesn't work in the industry understands that and some
: I don't see the point of going on strike. I never have, really. If one goes on strike, he won't be paid for the days he doesn't work. His situation ma
: Ok, first of all, not a pilot here. I do have a PPL with a few attachments, but I do not fly professionally. My name actually refers to something ent
: @quoting AirNZ "With respect, I think this are getting a little carried away..." Who's getting carried away? @quoting AirNZ "In light of this, and the
: Why are these concepts so difficult to understand?
: That's no different than when the last strike vote was cast in 2001. And a contract was ratified without going on strike. AA's history shows us this
: What source other than APFA agrees with 365m?
: AA is planning to train replacement F/As... http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/a...pfas-glading-criticizes-ameri.html
: Wow this is great news for the AA management lurkers on here that always wanted to be a flight attendant. Suit up boys... AA ORD
: Wow...attitude! Hey, it's your passion. You like being a flight attendant. Or you're so desperately committed to your employment history that right n
: Eh and your friend the AA pilot doesn't his union fight for better wages and benefits? Sounds a bit hypocritical to me. Wasn't it the APA pilots unio
: I really don't how an F/A can be well trained in 17 days since the normal F/A training program at AA takes about seven week. If it was approved by the
: Heres a link to the AA F/A contract including hourly pay rates. As you will see they are paid much better then their counterparts at other airlines. h
: Greetings atmospheric one! That entire paragraph was pure sarcasm. I red-flagged the phrases that were of particular importance; my personal favorite
: Thanks for the link.. Interesting stuff..would like to see one however from 2009 or even possibly 2010 as well.
: Just seen a story on CNN about management being trained, this is going to get really nasty. I do think that FA's deserve more money, I think that ALL
: Finally, a F/A that is in touch with the reality of economics. I was glad to find the link! I don't know why the APFA would post something on their w
: On the one hand, I can sympathize with anyone who took a significant pay cut or pay freeze for the financial health of a company. No one expects a pay
: I have a feeling, and AA FAs correct me if I am wrong, that the $20,000 per flight attendants is the overall concession per flight attendant consider
: AA did hit >$40 back in 2007.. That is great to hear..maybe with a new set of officers, management and the APA can start new and fresh.... Arpey d
: Well thank you but I'm not a FA! Although it was my first job in the airline industry I have not done that for many years! For me personally if AA wa
: All the more curious when you consider that one of the things on his "bucket list" is to be a cabin crew member...
: How different is this from any other business? People will not have any sympathy for people that work at American Airlines, Wal Mart, Target, McDonal
: Not that they should be compensated because they are ready in case of an emergency of course All of those airlines will be in big trouble when the st
: It wouldn't surprise me if AA started rapid firing people with lots of complaints from customers... I don't want to see that happen but it may be nec
: Delta has its own set of FA problems. There is a possibility that they all may soon belong to a union, instead of just the NW fAs. Now, let's see how
: DL flight attendants already voted against a union once. Here is an example of one thing DL management has done, something AA could consider. http://
: So what is the status of the strike action now?
: Statements?....the numbers and the market dictate it...stop taking to heart what your reading on an internet forum...I know it's hard...I couldn't im
: It's a little different now. We shall see how it comes out. And the youtube video is interesting propaganda. Some really good points and electioneeri
: Irrevelvant. That's still $20,000 that the company has needed to correct for a while. I know I certainly would just as displeased to find that we wer
: They're waiting further guidance from the NMB. APFA wants the NMB to declare an impasse thus starting the thirty day cooling down period, after which
: Yeah. You're right. AA's management deserves 0 credit. They are all idiots. They haven't done anything at all in the last nine years. Nothing, that i
: That is the amount AA demanded in concessions back in 2003. It's not our number, it's AAs. And they got it -- because we were willing to save the com
: Although we do not agree on a lot of points, on this one I agree completely. The largest problem AA faces with its FA's are they are all senior and o
: I have not mentioned anything about them deserving or not deserving credit for successes. The only thing I am saying is that when it comes to employe
: Somehow, I find that hard to believe. However, I find most of what you post hard to believe. However, even if you really were a former FA, your recen
: I do not mean this to flame. That said, what do you think is fair? I ask, as the "FA" required education (as I understand it, I am not saying I am co
: Irrelevant.... Happens all the time in a free economy. Don't like it, leave or start a new company....get more education, etc. Simple, I, amongst tho
: Every single F/A I have encountered (I'm by no means a frequent flyer but I fly a decent amount) has been kind, courteous, and provided great service
: You do get paid for this. It is in your hourly rate for flight time. You could change how your pay is computed to include some time other than flight
: You made a sacrifice. LOL. First of all, it was never yours to sacrifice. It's the company that gave you your job. It is the company that should dete
: Also, given the low union count in the U.S. (thus low union protection)-how many would have a complaint or two filed against them and not get fired?
: I wasn't watching the markets very well. By the time I realized that AMR had gotten so high, it had slid down to $25. You have to remember that Delta
: Meh. I'd bet $100 that even if AA did cut some exec's, their bonuses and salaries, it wouldn't change the FA's from wanting exactly the same thing th
: And eliminating every single executive salary and bonus would be a tiny drop in the bucket compared to what AA spends on F/As.
: So then tell me if so much is the precious (in your thinking) company's responsibility, why have they allowed such a current scenario and why then is
: In your first quote you state that AA FAs basically have the same perks as others. In the second quote you state that legally the FAs feel that they
: Well, to use your terminology, they have "allowed" the current scenario in the sense that they haven't used bankruptcy to tear up labor contracts and
: Why would that be hard to believe? I've also been an FA at a major in the past. It's half the reason why I know most of the "concerns" expressed here
: It's "not the same" as you think it is now. Many employees just say "to hell with it:" and buy a regular ticket. In fact, using your "several thousan
: AA needs to look at ways to eliminate some of the senior F/As. Offering incentives for them to leave would be the best option. There is a safety issu
: Dude, I sure hope you're wearing Nomex...
: Well first off most employees will tell you getting first class has pretty much gone away with all the elite upgrades. Second, non-revs are basically
: Oh well..can't win 'em all. Hopefully it will climb back to $40 again but I'm not as sanguine as many...
: Just because a hotel is cheap doesn't mean its dirty...
: And the race to the bottom continues...yee haw....cut their pay...keep 'em in flop houses, cut their medical benefits....open a crew base in Bangledas
: Obviously you anti flight attendant, wannabe CEOs, are able to make recommendations about an industry that you unofficially consult, but have never wo
: And Airline employees having these benefits has a negative effect on your life in which way???
: F/A training is not easy. A nurse turned F/A said that F/A training was ten times harder then nursing school. I think the F/A school washout rate is
: Yeah I guess when the airlines, such as AA, want to lower thier preferred requirements for Flight Attendants, then maybe they should consider paying a
: This is what it always comes down to. Everyone hates the flight attendants, don't understand their jobs, have never suffered, don't know what its lik
: I'm not sure however if you want an educated answer you would certainly defer your question to any of Americans high tier frequent flyers. highly doub
: Well, I'm an AA high tier frequent flyer. I fly AA because they have competitive schedules in the markets I frequency, AAdvantage is the best frequen
: I will agree with you that Americans are a bunch of cheapskates. We would rather complain about jobs going to China than pay higher prices to keep Am
: When DL last hired F/As they had 80,000 applications for 1500 positions... As both of us have stated, the training and job is hard but AA F/As still
: This is true. And expensive doesn't mean clean either. Just watch any hotel blog, travel 'expose' etc. ditto for me, but switch to DL. On any given r
: SOS certificates (Some One Special) were around for ever. Replaced several years ago by AAplause certificates. http://www.aa.com/i18n/utility/applaus
: Not in any way. The other poster had mentioned that the FAs are 'legally entitled' to strike. I enumerated all the benefits that AA FAs get and wante
: To the FAs that defend the AA FA/APFA positoin: I can understand why you are frustrated, I really can. You guys are paid less than you were 10 years a
: I would submit that you could draw the same comparison(s) for most positions in commercial aviation, especially this part: "...and you wan't be fully
: How long does it take for an FA to learn to help board a plane and provide service to pax in Y? Do FAs have a direct revenue responsibility? I obviou
: The question isn't how long does it take to learn, but rather-to paraphrase you- how long does it take to learn to do it well? IMO, yes they do. Ditt
: (Leaving safety training out) If you can't learn reasonably well within less than a month how to help expedite the boarding process and serve pax in
: About 90% of F/A training is about safety and the other 10% is service. Given how F/A training is seven weeks the skills that F/As use on a day to da
: The question is rarely how long it takes to do it, well or not. It almost always is, how many other people besides you are willing and able to do it.
: Are there any facts to support this position, or are we just flaming into the wind? Anyway, a lot of us have worked that job. It's how we're not fool
: I'm saying I believe flight attendants are undervalued considerably as invested individuals in several organizations. And no, I partially agree with
: No argument here. As I've long contended, if it were up to me, flight attendants would make way more than they do. But, alas, it's not up to me - it'
: While I understand what you're saying, and agree in principle (to the power of a contributing workforce), the above quote is true, whether you like i
: The criteria that the APFA sets forth tends to only be provided by three star hotels and up. APFA should cut that criteria and save AA money if AA ag
: Incorrect. The hotels that flight attendants stay in is dependent on the length of the stay. Anything less than X number of hours in the city puts th
: Thanks for the info! As I said above, I don't know and expect to know exactly which hotels F/As stay at. I've "heard" that they usually stayed in thr
: Awesome reference, Cameron. I would, however, say that many on here are focused on looking for horses, when there really are zebras afoot.
: It's not necessarily wrong, some crews routinely stay in three and four star hotels, but it is rarely due to union requirements. Generally, the union
: Thank you for taking the time to explain this! Another thing is that, when traveling internationally especially to certain countries, security is a b
: Where's Mark? Haha I'd like to get his take on this I think Arpey and co. will have a spine and stand their ground and get replacement workers...it wi
: Permanently? Not a chance. IIRC, AA can't legally fire these F/As if they go on strike. Not to mention the logistical challenges and costs of trainin
: If AA were to get an approved 17-day training program in place, AA could only train 6,240 flight attendants a year. AA could elect to run the facilit
: It worked out well for NW in 2005 with their mechanics.....
: The most important routes for AA which are probably operated by 767s and 777s could be operated by a lot less F/As then they currently are being opera
: How are the FA's any different from a pilot or a mechanic in terms of training??
: Because pilots and mechanics aren't trained in detail in evacuation commands, first aid, and other cabin safety items. I wouldn't imagine that a pilo
: Some will cross the picket line...I really do believe AA will pull a NW in 2005 I think they'll follow that playbook...
: I don't think AA would have to train even more than say 3000 FA's to foil a FA strike. Just simply staging groups of new FA's around the system to cov
: Wow. After reading through all these threads about how AA FAs don't deserve to be paid any more than anyone else, you've convinced me. I'm going to ca
: While the information you provide is correct, the vast majority of AA's fleet is staffed with FAA minimums already. AA has 476 a/c in it's fleet staf
: How many captains would be willing to leave the gate with a full FA crew just out of training? If the captain feels that safety is a concern, then th
: happens all the time, especially in new hire-heavy bases such as delta's jfk or atl. and quite honestly, things go just fine (if not better than flig
: M11Stephen. Hmmm. AA as well as all other airlines, negoitiate a corporate contract with various hotel companies and get substantial discounts by doi
: I highly doubt there's ever been a 767/777 at AA fully staffed with new hire flight attendants, nor a flight deck crew with two new hires. Im not jud
: That's the problem - AA's FA workforce is already one of the highest paid in the industry while being one of the least productive. You guys say you w
: The latest propaganda from Laura Marx (I mean Glading) addressing the proletariat: here. Some of her greatest hits from this letter: Our industry has
: They absolutely can. If the FA's use their nuclear option and strike, the company in turn is allowed to do several things including lock out strikers
: She doesn't honestly believe this, does she? AA lost $500 million last quarter, they're circling the drain right now, not prospering. Laura, dear, if
: Whoa there, hoss. Having been an FA and Mechanic (albeit for different airlines), I can tell you that that could not be further from true. It is ever
: Commavia, your over simplification of the facts in recent posts on here is starting to stretch the respect you've gained on here by myself and I suspe
: So you are saying that the pilots and mechanics are not trained properly on anything and the FA's are superior in every way?? Keep in mind, The FAA b
: qqflyboy...I respect your views and opinions. However, please do tell me, why is it that AA cuts many routes only see other carriers come back and not
: The F/A certificate looks just like mine but for all practical purposes is a certificate of demonstrated proficiency and is NOT the equivilent of an
: That is unfortunate, since I respect enormously you and others like you that I have conversed with and debated with and shared interesting conversati
: All I was saying is that there are things F/As know that pilots and mechanics aren't trianed in thus the reason they have to go through a 17 day cras
: bring back TWA and there flight attendents ditch American wishful thinking though
: Thanks for your viewpoint, Jacob. I learned something new tonight, I didn't know a lot about.
: The way you explained it in reply 196 seemed like the exact opposite. True. Pretty much anybody can get an FA license.
: And just where do you think the money will come from for AA FAs raise? Mr. Arpey's Money Tree in his backyard? No! My pocket of course everytime I bo
: This may be true in most industries. However, not so much in the U.S. airline industry. How much more are consumers paying to fly today that they wer
: This is a prime example of over simplifying the facts. Of course the flight attendants themselves don't generate or contribute to AA's revenue advant
: Well then it was the APFA's own "heavyweight economist" that did the oversimplification, not me. He's the one who suggested that AA's highest-in-the-
: What I can't understand is why do we continue to debate solely the AA FA's being over paid? At some point, this industry as a whole needs to have a re
: agreed, but the only way to do that is get rid of the arbitrary pay structures imposed by unions and let market economics work without artificial lay
: Yes, that is exactly what I suspect would happen as well. It seems the first 3 to 5 years, FA's are living on starvation wages, but they hang in ther
: You're welcome friend... That's irrelevant..the fact of the matter is the industry is not what it was 10-15-20 years ago...carriers need to adjust to
: How much more are consumers paying for PC's than they were in the 1980's? Much much less. So wouldn't it seem silly if the guy who sweeps the floor a
: Marxist crusade for the middle class, Commavia? Wow.[Edited 2010-06-13 13:32:53]
: "Marxist" was hyperbole. Although, when one starts throwing around language like Ms. Glading has been and is doing, it does carry a tinge of socialis
: We're not socialists and neither is Laura Glading. It would work well for your argument if your claim were true. Many FAs, including myself, are firm
: Didn't say she was, and certainly didn't say that you were. I said her language was. I realize full well this is a negotiation. In a negotiation, bot
: She is playing to a group that demands that she demonstrate an aggressive posture toward their common adversary. The one thing that unites FAs is thei
: Absolutely no argument here. As I've said earlier in this thread, and in many others: Glading is a politician just like any other. She had to make ce
: Really? I mean, you really think that? If so, you must sleep well at night. For now.
: Seems like the NK pilots are fairing well in their forum...not so much love here though
: How come carriers such as WN exist (and profit) then?
: So I guess you "self-regulate" whenever you ask your boss for a raise or do whatever it is you do to improve your compensation. By the logic I believ
: As long as their are people lining up to make 19k a year and have no chance at a pension... It's a service job...and AA can have you certified with 17
: Have you considered maybe that is all the job is "worth"? Seriously, if there was no CBA, what do you think the going wage rates for FA's would be if
: It is not in his economic interest to do that. Those interests, the interests of his stockholders, the interests of his employees, the interest of th
: And therein, quite starkly and clearly right there, lies the major difference in perspective that I think drives much of the debate here on A.net and
: While its best for the interest of the shareholders, etc. to have everyone happy-it might be difficult. Raising salaries hurts direct cash flow----&g
: This is a hollow argument because the CBA does, in fact, exist and most likely always will. This is the system that is in place. It amazes me how man
: No one is calling anyone here "dumb and under-qualified"..please tone down the rhetoric. What many are saying is that the F/A's are "artificially" ov
: And from what I've heard, most of the FAs don't really care much to see it go, anyway. All the ones I've talked to all think it's inevitable that new
: I trust you meant "more junior FA's" AA ORD
: Its not a hollow argument at all. Matter of fact having understanding of the market realities for the value of a FA(or any position) is likely why a
: If you and your fellow FAs are such successful entrepreneurs, why not be an entrepreneur full-time? Seems like a win-win for everyone. I don't think
: This is actually not true. All carriers (even LCC's) are raising fares and have said that fares MUST rise further. But there is a cost to this to whi
: That holds true for most all work groups, however, AA wont do it because it claims the costs are/will be too high for a buyout. If they offered the T
: I meant both - younger and more junior. What is the average age of an AA FA today? 45? I'm guessing that when AA does start hiring again some day, it
: A couple of things to keep in mind. There are a lot of folks retiring due to fear and the uncertain future of their respective contracts. Why do you
: This thread just underscores how out of touch with reality with APFA membership really is. I was hoping it was simply the rhetoric coming from APFA an
: Really? Well according to the many many post on here talking about how there are thousands upon thousands of people willing (wanting) to do the job ,
: I received a 15.9 percent pay CUT in 2003. Wish i would have gotten a raise last year. AA ORD
: JFKPurser: I think Commavia's point is that when the head of your union uses rhetoric about standing up for the middle class, when so many of the midd
: So, where exactly are the F/As now in the negotiations. Are they anywhere near a possible walk-out? Cool-off period, etc.
: Well, forgive me, then. Regardless of the semantics, the point I was making is that the new flight attendants AA will hire in the future - younger an
: I received a 0.0% raise, nor a cost of living increase. Yet I still come to work day in and day out and do my job because...well...it's my job. Gosh
: No. The analysts think the NMB will wait until the negotiations with TWU are sorted out before moving any farther with APFA, i.e. releasing APFA to t
: This linkshows what AA F/As are paid compared to other airlines. Here are the facts: It takes 17 days to become a F/A. There are thousands, maybe eve
: This F/A drama is already costing AA business. I spend at least $3k a month on AA, and since this situation has deteriorated and a strike looks more l
: Wrong answer. It's actually passengers who are tired of subsidizing inflated wages with expensive fares, hence the trend toward price reductions. You
: If Willie Walsh did it so can Gerard Arpey
: Just how much do F/A's make a year. Because I would love to do this type of job. And I'm 47 yrs old. CP
: They don't make much starting out. I had an interview with CO for an F/A job until I google'd how much they made in their first year. I believe CO st
: After 15 years on the job. but glad to know that not every is willing to do this job for 19K a year as so many on hear believe. AA ORD
: FA's have nothing to do with added revenue How bout you be compensated as much as the wonderful people at Jet Blue; they're nice, quick, and always s
: I also have a college degree in an in demand field, i.e. I had alternatives. I'm probably not the best example to use to prove your point.