Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Why Can Qantas Fly LAX-JFK-LAX  
User currently offlineB6A322 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 291 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 22284 times:

Whatsup Anet!

I was wondering if anyone knew why Qantas is the only foreign airline (AFAIK) that is permitted to fly a route between two US destinations? Is there some wording in the regulation which states carriers may operate flights between US points if they do not sell tickets for the intra US route?

Thanks


The content I post is solely my own opinion. It is not an official statement by/of/for nor representative of any company
69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32596 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 22290 times:

All foreign airlines are allowed to operate domestic flights within the United States without selling local tickets. Qantas is not the only one.


a.
User currently offlineB6A322 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 22225 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 1):
Qantas is not the only one.

I vaguely remember LH also doing this when they still operated DUS-JFK. The plane would go JFK-DUS-MIA. I'm not sure about the return though.



The content I post is solely my own opinion. It is not an official statement by/of/for nor representative of any company
User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5890 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 22208 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

China Airlines briefly flew A340's between SEA-IAH. Likewise, EVA flew between SEA-EWR. During the 1990's, Martinair would fly AMS-OAK-SEA-AMS or AMS-OAK-LAX-AMS.

User currently offlineUA772IAD From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 1730 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 22141 times:

Doesn't BA operate (or used to operate) a domestic tag-on into Texas? (Something like LHR-ORD-IAH?)

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15707 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 22130 times:

Quoting B6A322 (Thread starter):
I was wondering if anyone knew why Qantas is the only foreign airline (AFAIK) that is permitted to fly a route between two US destinations?

You can't buy a ticket for LAX-JFK on Qantas, since they don't have rights. All tickets on that flight must be going to or from Australia (or AKL I suppose too).

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 1):
Qantas is not the only one.

I think that in the past BA operated some flights with stops in the US to some of their smaller American destinations. I want to say that their PIT flight either stopped somewhere or continued on somewhere else, for at least some time.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinevv701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7380 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 22059 times:

Quoting B6A322 (Thread starter):
I was wondering if anyone knew why Qantas is the only foreign airline (AFAIK) that is permitted to fly a route between two US destinations?
BA used to but no longer flies LGW-PHX-SAN-PHX-LGW and LHR-DTW-IAD-DTW-LHR. They gave up the flight through PHX when they started a direct flight to SAN but could not sustain the SAN flight because of the length of the runway, the steep climb out because of the topography and the SAN-LGW rout length that combined to make the maximum load unrofitable.

They operated their LHR-IAH flight through DTW to circumnavigate the Bermuda 2 prohibition of a npn-stop LHR-IAH flight.

[Edited 2010-05-21 13:04:43]

[Edited 2010-05-21 13:10:43]

User currently offlinesan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4941 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 22056 times:

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 4):
Doesn't BA operate (or used to operate) a domestic tag-on into Texas? (Something like LHR-ORD-IAH?)

They operated LHR-DTW-IAH until 2008 when they began operating LHR-IAH nonstop.



Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineairceo From Canada, joined Feb 2010, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 21931 times:

As others have pointed out anyone is allowed to do it, the wrinkle is in the ticket selling freedoms. In aviation as with most things in life there are exceptions to every rule. Though not domestic I think the intra-North American ops that LA and CX run are fascinating.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
(or AKL I suppose too).

QF26 (MEL-AKL-LAX) terminates in LAX and so would require a separate leg on QF107 (SYD-LAX-JFK) switching aircraft in LA which I'm 90% sure is not allowed.

Incidentally I blogged yesterday about what QF should do with all of their idle planes at LAX. http://airceo.com/276

@airceo



blogger at airceo | reach me: @airceo or fly@airceo.com
User currently offlinewill777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 174 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 21824 times:

Quoting airceo (Reply 8):
Incidentally I blogged yesterday about what QF should do with all of their idle planes at LAX.

I had been wondering if airlines did this for a long time! It would be a perfect idea. This would have been a great thing for airlines to do while their planes were stranded because of the ash cloud!


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8537 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 21658 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting airceo (Reply 8):
QF26 (MEL-AKL-LAX) terminates in LAX and so would require a separate leg on QF107 (SYD-LAX-JFK) switching aircraft in LA which I'm 90% sure is not allowed.

Well , you should have gone with the other 10%  . QF sells the LAX-JFK vv sector in conjunction with any QF operated Trans Pacific flight , it can be BNE-LAX , AKL-LAX , SYD-LAX or MEL-LAX ( ... actually I am not sure if they can sell it in conjunction with SYD-SFO - do any QF insiders know ? )



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24760 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 21525 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 1):
Qantas is not the only one.

I think that in the past BA operated some flights with stops in the US to some of their smaller American destinations.

For years, from the late 1950s through the mid 1970s, BA operated LHR-JFK-SFO-HNL as part of their around-the-world service, with flights beyond HNL to HND, and to NAN-SYD. Like QF, they could not carry wholly domestic US passengers but through passengers could stop over and continue on a later BA flight.

Several European carriers used to include more than one US stop on the same flight, again without traffic rights. Swissair did that for quite a while. Forget the exact routings but one was something like ZRH-BOS-PHL. They may also have operated ZRH-BOS-ORD when they first started service to ORD.

Quite a few carriers have included stops in Canada en route to the US since they were able to obtain 5th freedom rights to carry passengers on the Canada-US sector. There are still a few of those, e.g. LA SCL-JFK-YYZ, PR MNL-YVR-LAS, and CX HKG-YVR-JFK. There have been many others in the past. JL operated NRT-YVR-MEX until they suspended service to MEX a few months ago. LY used to operate TLV-YYZ-LAX. AT operated CMN-JFK-YUL/YMX. BA operated 757s for a while BHX-JFK-YYZ. There were several others.


User currently offlinechepos From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2000, 6202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 21488 times:

Lots of airlines used to do this,
MS LAX-JFK-CAI (the MS 767 which crashed back in the late 90's started it's trip in LAX and stopped at JFK)
SV MCO-JFK-JED/RUH, I believe the IAD flight at one point stopped at JFK- it's now nonstop
LAB IAD-MIA-VVI
ET at one point flew the ADD-FCO-EWR-IAD, the EWR route has since been dropped.

And many many more.

Regards,

Chepos



Fly the Flag!!!!
User currently offlinebiggsfo From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 21380 times:

Operating two domestic points in the USA (or any country) by a foreign airline is called cabotage and it is illegal. QF can only carry thru passengers. They aren't even allowed to connect these passengers to another international flight on another airline, say CX to Hong Kong etc.

User currently offlineAmricanShamrok From Ireland, joined May 2008, 2870 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 21218 times:

In the 1980s and early '90s EI ran a few-times-weekly service that routed DUB-SNN-BOS-ORD and back with the 747-100. The flight numbers were EI123 (westbound) and EI122 (eastbound).


Shannon-Chicago
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15707 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 21215 times:

Quoting airceo (Reply 8):
Incidentally I blogged yesterday about what QF should do with all of their idle planes at LAX

Your notion of "short cycle leasing" has basically been done before in the form of interchanges, which were a sort of precursor of the codeshare where airline A would operate their plane somewhere and then be operated somewhere else by the crew of airline B. The biggest change with your idea would probably be how the money is split up. That said, it is an interesting thought, but probably unlikely to be considered.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineridgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 21126 times:

IN the 70's and 80's many foreign arlines operated LAX-HNL, and SFO-HNL, with the flight number going beyond Honolulu. They could not sell tickets on the domestic portion of LAX-HNL Air New Zealand, Quantas, China, Phillippine, Korean, Japan Airlines, Singapore, Thai, all operated flights with stops in HNL.
Some of these airlines most notably Air New Zealand, Quantas and Singapore would permit some airline non-revs on the LAX or SFO to HNL portion. My father was a pilot for Braniff, and during most hliday seasons, our entire family would non rev on these flights, as they were rarely full, and the domestic carrier flights were. I remember on New Years eve going to HNL from the coast on a Singapore Airlines flight aht only had about 50 people on it.

[Edited 2010-05-21 14:42:21]

[Edited 2010-05-21 14:42:54]

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24760 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 21118 times:

Quoting biggsfo (Reply 13):
Operating two domestic points in the USA (or any country) by a foreign airline is called cabotage and it is illegal.

With exceptions, most notably EU carriers within the EU. Any EU-based carrier can operate anywhere they want within the EU, including domestic routes in another EU country.

Ausralia and New Zealand also permit carriers from each country to operate domestic routes in the other country.

There have been other liimited exceptions in the past. Two or three carriers used to have domestic rights between GVA and ZRH on flights that served both cities.


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6439 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 21095 times:

Slightly off topic, but does Qantas allow non-rev travel on its LAX-JFK leg for other airline personnel? ZED ticket for instance. I know I used to non-rev on Ait New Zealand HNL-LAX.

User currently offlineTravellerPlus From New Zealand, joined Nov 2008, 347 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 21073 times:

Of course in Qantas' home, Australia, United operate SYD-MEL v.v. and Cathay operate CNS-BNE v.v. Similar rules apply in that only passengers who arrive on UA or CX are allowed to fly on those sectors.


What goes around comes around....unless your luggage is not on the carousel...
User currently offlineUALORD From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 20533 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 18):
Slightly off topic, but does Qantas allow non-rev travel on its LAX-JFK leg for other airline personnel? ZED ticket for instance. I know I used to non-rev on Ait New Zealand HNL-LAX.

Prob not the in the single flight but if you book it to go on to SYD or wherever and not show up for that flight that would probably work.


User currently offlinejetblue777 From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 1451 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 20260 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 1):
Qantas is not the only one.

CI currently flies JFK-ANC, while BR also flies EWR-ANC. I think PR used to fly from LAX to HNL. I think it would be sweet if QF is granted rights to fly from JFK-LAX-JFK, I'm pretty sure a lot of people would fly with them, a trans-con flight on board an Airbus A330!  Anyways, I know its going to be impossible...but still, if they flew from JFK to LAX, it would be sweet.



It's a cultural thing.
User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6086 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 20204 times:

Korean once flew Seoul - San Francisco - Denver r/t


"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 19789 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 10):
QF sells the LAX-JFK vv sector in conjunction with any QF operated Trans Pacific flight , it can be BNE-LAX , AKL-LAX , SYD-LAX or MEL-LAX ( ... actually I am not sure if they can sell it in conjunction with SYD-SFO - do any QF insiders know ? )

I'd imagine you could do that only if you were using the AA code share flight LAX-SFO. Would only make sense if you wanted to visit both LAX & SFO.


User currently offlineditzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 711 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 19580 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 18):
does Qantas allow non-rev travel on its LAX-JFK leg for other airline personnel?

It was allowed in the past. Certainly no longer. This is due to ticketing issues with the introduction of ZED fares, another airline is ticketing this service and the employee passenger is paying a 'fare'. There is a 'fare' or revenue being collected.


25 7673mech : New Zealand operates flights between Los Angeles and London on the international side and formerly FRA. As far as I know they can sell these to anyone
26 kiwiandrew : You are correct , but LAX-LHR is a 5th freedom route , very different to LAX-JFK which would be cabotage if QF could sell it as a stand alone sector
27 7673mech : Understood. Thank you!
28 ditzyboy : When utilising the LAX-JFK or JFK-LAX on QF, your previous or subsequent sector must be a QF international flight.
29 kiwiandrew : Would a pax be permitted to route SYD QF SFO // LAX QF JFK doing a surface sector between SFO and LAX ?
30 TUSAA : I've flown LAX-JFK-LAX 3 times this year on QF as a local LAX board. It all depends on who you know and your reason for travel.
31 Post contains images tayser : I just went to Qantas.com and plugged in the following: SYD-SFO-LAX-JFK-MEL and it came up with all Qantas flights: SYD-SFO (QF73), SFO-LAX (QF3236 (A
32 ditzyboy : Was it a ZED ticket for leisure travel?
33 BRJ : Lufthansa also used to fly FRA-ATL-IAH back in the late 80s. We were in Business downstairs on a 747-200 on one of these flights, and the F/A allowed
34 Stealthz : One of the problems there is that almost any destination that can support a return flight in the time frame needed would be US domestic and almost ce
35 Ben175 : Does this have to be one complete booking? Because I booked PER-HKG-LAX-JFK-EWR-SIN-PER over a month ago on CX/VX/SQ (booking the international legs
36 coolfish1103 : The ticket simply cannot originate from LAX and terminates at JFK (or vice versa) without involving an home stop.
37 vv701 : BA also flew 752s GLA-JFK-BOS (and BHX-JFK-YYZ) between January 1995 and Octiober 1998. For two years prior to that I believe that they operated 763s
38 gemuser : Ditzyboy, are you sure that the onward flight MUST be on QF? It certainly was not the case in the past, although that could have changed. When I was
39 kiwiandrew : My understanding is that although US law would allow QF to sell the sector in conjunction with any international sector ( eg JFK-LHR on BA or JFK-SCL
40 ssides : LH once flew FRA-DFW-IAH on certain days of the week, while both IAH and DFW had their own nonstops on other days of the week. Now DFW and IAH both ha
41 Post contains images kiwiandrew : So far as I am aware the routing was either AKL-HNL-DFW-LGW or AKL-PPT-DFW-LGW . I could be wrong ( wouldn't be the first time ) but I am not aware o
42 ssides : You may very well be right -- I just assumed it was via LAX since almost everything to Australia and New Zealand seems to pass through TBIT.
43 skyguyB727 : FI used to fly a DC-8 Super 60 ORD-BOS-KEF. Of course, they had no traffic rights on the ORD-BOS segment. In the case of the original topic, one would
44 kdonohue : Viscount 724, You referenced a few 5th freedom flights from YVR. There used to be many more, but sadly they have gone. Some others included Air Pacifi
45 PeterSpence : I see a lot of the prior posts about companies doing these flights within the US but--unless I missed it--doesn't Korean Air do LAX-LAS-LAX and then i
46 davescj : This was a 767 route. When it was done, as pointed out, you could not purchase a IAH - DTW route. Once IAH moved to LHR (previously it was a 2x 777 f
47 sexyadonis : It is interesting to see how this subject surfaces again and again over the years. To give it a different dimension, and avoid “repetition” I have
48 gemuser : OK, this is hard to believe, and I have certainly not heard it before. Do you have a source? Looking at Sir Hudson Fysh's book "Wings to the World",(
49 planesmith : Let's not forget my personal favourite - BA's Concorde service - LHR/IAD/MIA I once flew LGW/LAX/SAN on BA's service - operated at that time by G-HUGE
50 Post contains links sexyadonis : I was referring to the fact that the same principle that exists today on the QF 107 and QF 108 West Coast - East Coast services applied for the SFO-J
51 gemuser : OK, fine. But could I respectfully suggest that it read like you meant domestic passengers. gemuser
52 ramprat74 : Didn't EL Al fly 737-800's LAX-JFK-LAX? They were for JFK-TLV connections only.
53 jeffrey1970 : They used to fly LHR-IAD-PIT. They also used to fly CLT-BWI-LHR and back.
54 Cubsrule : They also tagged IAH onto 294 and 295 (ORD flights) for a while. The equipment was 772 and 744 at various times, and maybe 763 sometimes too.
55 directorguy : When GF started operations to North America in the early 1990s, they had a pretty interesting routing. Using the A340s they had AUH/BAH/DOH-LCA-JFK-IA
56 azstar : It's known as "eighth freedom". "The right to fly between two or more airports in a foreign country while continuing service to one's own country."
57 ssides : That's correct. Weren't these flights designed to get IAH pax into Heathrow for connections on to Africa and the Middle East, back when nonstop IAH-L
58 Cubsrule : Yes.
59 ridgid727 : My bad, I know QANTAS.
60 sw733 : I flew BA ORD-LHR in summer 2004 and the a/c, a 744, had come in from IAH. So yeah, this is definitely correct. Later was changed to DTW before IAH w
61 UN_B732 : -- please delete, wrong information posted --[Edited 2010-05-22 13:58:22]
62 N200WN : I agree. They are fascinating because they are flights anyone can actually buy a ticket on. While the foreign carrier "domestic tag-on's" are cool, w
63 Viscount724 : They still do. However those aren't 5th freedom services (except to/from Port au Prince, Haiti) as all the other stops on the AF A320 flights from MI
64 BMI727 : I think that it was an A319 and operated to Cayenne and a few other places. I think it no longer operates. Iberia's MIA operation was somewhat more s
65 Viscount724 : You mention that the QF YVR-SFO 5th freedom service was shortlived. Actually it lasted longer than all the others in your list. That was QF's routing
66 kdonohue : Hi Viscount 724, You know your history. When I meant QF's shortlived 5th freedom flights, I was thinking of their last foray to YVR, when then operate
67 thegeek : Once AC were flying SYD-YVR non stop with the 77L the economics of this flight would have died.
68 Viscount724 : I'd forgotten about those brief seasonal operations. As you say, that didn't last long.
69 FX1816 : Don't forget that BA used to fly the DC10s LAX-SAN. I don't remember if they then flew back to LAX then onto LHR or if they flew SAN-LHR, though. FX18
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Why Can´t Southwest Fly From Hobby posted Thu Feb 3 2005 16:04:16 by Erikwilliam
Why Can´t A 777 Fly Thorugh The South Atlantic? posted Thu Mar 14 2002 20:06:14 by TOMASKEMPNER
Why Can´t SR Fly To Mex? posted Fri May 4 2001 05:33:00 by TOMASKEMPNER
Why Doesn't Qantas Fly Into Miami? posted Tue Mar 6 2001 21:05:10 by DL3744
Why Would Skywest Fly This Route? Oxnard-LAX posted Thu Apr 1 2010 07:56:45 by flaps30
Why Can't I Fly China Airlines ANC-JFK? posted Fri Jan 25 2008 12:12:40 by AS777
Why Don't UA Fly LAX/BNE Or SFO/BNE? posted Fri Jan 13 2006 00:28:57 by Simpilicity
Why So Many Qantas 747 At LAX? posted Thu Dec 1 2005 19:23:29 by Boeing 747-311
How Is It To Fly The LAX SYD Flight With Qantas? posted Sat Aug 30 2003 16:36:30 by Vkstealth
Can A 777 Fly To Sydney From Lax? posted Wed Feb 7 2001 23:44:36 by USAirways737