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Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India #2  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 25
Posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 29822 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

This is a continuation thread from Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard

Please feel free to discuss the topic here.


Rgds

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 29513 times:

Im thinking this incident will become part of the "Air Disaster" series that gets shown on Nat Geo soon enough.

User currently offlineVivekman2006 From India, joined May 2006, 540 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 29448 times:

The FDR & CVR have not yet been retrieved yet. Wonder how much longer it would take.

Search on for black box

MANGALORE: The Flight data recorder (FDR), popularly known as the Black Box, which is crucial to understand what went wrong after Air India Express flight IX 812 landed at Bajpe airport in Mangalore, has still not been recovered by authorities till late on Saturday evening.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/5963848.cms


User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 29436 times:

Quoting Vivekman2006 (Reply 2):
The FDR & CVR have not yet been retrieved yet. Wonder how much longer it would take.

Search on for black box

MANGALORE: The Flight data recorder (FDR), popularly known as the Black Box, which is crucial to understand what went wrong after Air India Express flight IX 812 landed at Bajpe airport in Mangalore, has still not been recovered by authorities till late on Saturday evening.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/a...8.cms

i read in TOI this morning, which btw, has some really stupid writers working for it, that the DGCA still hasnt got them out and the other agencies arent allowed to look for them.


User currently offlineaviationbuff From India, joined Mar 2008, 1425 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 29170 times:

'Hate goodbyes, but guess it's time'

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/C...s-its-time/articleshow/5963887.cms

Quote:
Sujata Survase, the 25-year-old Air India air hostess from Mumbai who lost her life in the Mangalore crash on Saturday, chillingly enough seemed to have had a hunch about the impending tragedy. Her last status update on a social networking site said: "I hate goodbyes but I guess it's time."

Very sad ... RIP to her


User currently offlineaviationbuff From India, joined Mar 2008, 1425 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 29137 times:

US experts team to assist Indian officials

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...-officials/articleshow/5964525.cms

Quote:
A team of top US transportation experts along with officials from Boeing is set to join Indian aviation authorities in probing the Air India Express flight crash in Mangalore that killed 158 people.

The team, which will assist Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) in investigation into Saturday’s plane crash, is scheduled to reach Mangalore on Tuesday morning, a US official said.

-----------------------------------------
DNA experts arrive to help identify bodies
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...ify-bodies/articleshow/5964449.cms


User currently offlineAirIndia From United Arab Emirates, joined Jan 2001, 1641 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 28629 times:

They found the CVR

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/C...rder-found/articleshow/5965092.cms


User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 28465 times:

Quoting aviationbuff (Reply 4):

Very sad ... RIP to her

that kind of stuff creeps me out to no end  .


User currently onlineEBGflyer From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1004 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 28179 times:

Quoting aviationbuff (Reply 4):
'Hate goodbyes, but guess it's time'

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/C...s-its-time/articleshow/5963887.cms

Quote:
Sujata Survase, the 25-year-old Air India air hostess from Mumbai who lost her life in the Mangalore crash on Saturday, chillingly enough seemed to have had a hunch about the impending tragedy. Her last status update on a social networking site said: "I hate goodbyes but I guess it's time."

What load of sensationalism. No need to sensationalize on a victim. In my eyes, that's just bad taste. It doesn't take a Sherlock Holmes to find her profile on Facebook. The status update referred to in the article is from May 10. Nothing to do with a hunch about something is going to happen. Later on on, she talks about diversions, delays and the KWI sector that doesn't seem like her favorite.

RIP



Future flights: CPH-BKK-MNL; MNL-GUM-TKK-PNI-KSA-KWA-MAJ-HNL-LAX
User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 25656 times:

Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 8):

What load of sensationalism. No need to sensationalize on a victim. In my eyes, that's just bad taste. It doesn't take a Sherlock Holmes to find her profile on Facebook. The status update referred to in the article is from May 10. Nothing to do with a hunch about something is going to happen. Later on on, she talks about diversions, delays and the KWI sector that doesn't seem like her favorite.

U gotta understand this is the idiotic Indian media we are talking about, who will spare no length to sensationalize any story..however tragic it may be. I read the whole thing this morning in my daily Times of India.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 31
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 24868 times:

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 3):
that the DGCA still hasnt got them out and the other agencies arent allowed to look for them.

If the wreckage is not burning, having emergency personnel, or misc airport workers looking through the debris for the flight recorders is not a good idea. Especially if investigative agency professionals are available to look for and retrieve the recorders.


User currently offlineaviationbuff From India, joined Mar 2008, 1425 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 24265 times:

Black Box recovered from crash site in Mangalore: AI sources

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/I...AI-sources/articleshow/5965754.cms

Quote:
According to Airline sources, Black Box of the crashed Air India Express aircraft has been recovered.

The Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) and the Flight Data Recorder (FDR) of the illfated Air India Express plane were recovered earlier from the crash site and are expected to provide vital clues about the cause of the accident that left 158 passengers and crew dead.


User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 24148 times:

NDTV reports that they have found '2 out of 3' parts of the Black Box - ???

User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 31
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 24068 times:

Either a memory module has separated from one of the recorders, or there might be 3 recorders on the B737-800

The trend is to put multiple backup recorders on newer aircraft.


User currently offlineaffirmative From France, joined Jul 2009, 352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 24039 times:

Looking at Google maps one can clearly see that there's an addition of approximately 200m on each end of the affected runway (06/24). The question I'm raising is if the plane actually went of the end of the runway. Could it be that it actually veered of to the right and down a slope thus leaving the runway environment? Do we have confirmation that it has actually gone past the end of the runway?

Why I'm asking is that according to performance data posted by mandala499 (thank you very much for your contributions.) there would be enough rwy left even if he overshoot the rwy by 2000ft. One survivor was quoted that "one wing came down and the other one was pointing to the skies" which could mean that there was a landing gear failure, which would explain if it went of the side. If it was "only" a burst tire one would think that the reversers and remaining braking effect together with the sand pits would be enough to bring the plane to a stop..

Well.. It's another sad accident, that's a fact and probably the only fact we have at this moment..



I love the smell of Jet-A1 in the morning...
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 31
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 23880 times:

mandala499's excellent report shows why the aircraft should have been able to stop.

But I've seen several reports that the aircraft tried to Go Around after it touched down, thus it would have gone off the end of the runway accelerating, not slowing.

Though we have to treat these reports with skepticism. Almost every runway overrun is described as a failed Go Around at some point soon after the crash.


User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 23762 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 13):
Either a memory module has separated from one of the recorders, or there might be 3 recorders on the B737-800

Thanks - your expert posts are much appreciated.

Incidentally, the AI Express 737s had beautiful livery - with tails depicting different aspects of Indian culture:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rick Schlamp



User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6858 posts, RR: 75
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 22207 times:

Quoting affirmative (Reply 14):
The question I'm raising is if the plane actually went of the end of the runway. Could it be that it actually veered of to the right and down a slope thus leaving the runway environment? Do we have confirmation that it has actually gone past the end of the runway?

Veering to a particular direction in an overrun, in my books usually means that they didn't try to go-around (assuming both engines running)... it is usually associated with trying to stop.

Quoting affirmative (Reply 14):
Why I'm asking is that according to performance data posted by mandala499 (thank you very much for your contributions.) there would be enough rwy left even if he overshoot the rwy by 2000ft.

Correct, BUT, treat the data I posted with care, there are assumptions built into it. The use of "would" is correct... however, I caution others intending to say "it must have been able to stop".

Quoting affirmative (Reply 14):
One survivor was quoted that "one wing came down and the other one was pointing to the skies" which could mean that there was a landing gear failure, which would explain if it went of the side.

From survivors and witness reports of past accidents (remember, Indonesia had a lot of overruns... we seem to have at least 1 a year in wet season), one must further analyse the survivor/witness statements, because they can be disoriented either during the landing roll or their post-event memory disorientation as they "try to explain" what they went through (it's a natural process, not one of mal-intent). "One wing came down ant the other was pointing to the sky", is unfortunately, a classic post-event memory distortion (PEMD)... treat it with caution! Frame-event sequencing also gets jumbled in PEMD. If you want a reliable eyewitness, the best ones are usually from fire-rescue services, or fellow professionals witnessing the event, or a passenger onboard who couldn't careless if he just went through a near-death experience... my past encounters with these witnesses are normally the less PEMD affected ones.

Sidenote... On the GA200 case... I talked to 2 passengers, and 1 air force instructor who was briefing his students on an apron abeam of the landing threshold.
That instructor, could recall in detail the flight path based on his position and field of view, and recalled the speed and touchdown point with great accuracy (prior to FDR data release)... he's witnessed crashes in the past so such an event has "less memory trauma" hence less PEMD... (he was also one of the first persons to arrive on scene, now, that part of the conversation, had PEMD stamped allover it).
1 Passenger could not recall what happened in detail except that she remembered the aircraft leaving the runway (plane on grass feels different than plane on runway), then the ditch road impact, and nothing else is useful.
The other passenger, was a case of "ignorance of a traumatic event"... he remembers in detail that the approach was high and fast, and that the flap didn't seem to be fully deployed... remembers that he immediately braced for impact when the aircraft left the runway... after impact, he got out of his seat, exited through an opening, walked to the main road, took a cab and went to his meeting, much to the shock of his workmates! Afterwards, he realized he hadn't reported himself to the airline accident center (they listed him as missing for a few hours), went to the airport, reported himself as OK, then went to the nearby town, and flew back to Jakarta, seemingly unaffected by what he went through (mind you, the check-in person was shocked to see him turn up!), within 12hrs of the accident he was sitting back at home in Jakarta... His details of what happened, was not sought after by the media, but proved to be the most accurate out of the passengers on board who survived... Yes, that aircraft touched down at a hideously fast speed...

So, back to this accident...
One must select carefully on how to use these media reports from witnesses. Where the plane ended, does explain the "one wing came down and the other one was pointing to the skies" story... which, the way I see it at the moment, seems to be a case of "sequence distortion" caused by PEMD... Yes he/she isn't lying, but, when did the "one wing came down and the other one was pointing to the skies" happen? When the aircraft went past to the left of the localizer antennae, and rolled down the slope, left wing down first...

Combine that story with:

and

and

Plus there's 1 photo I saw but cannot find, showing the wreckage, with the field of view looking up towards the top, and showing the just a small part of the localizer antennae on top of the hill...

What do we have?
We can see that the aircraft path appears to be going down following the slope, but the nose is to the right of direction of travel during that plunge... During the plunge, the aircraft only travelled 90m horizontally.
I haven't done any calculations to get a rough number, but I strongly suspect, it had little speed by that time...

Quoting affirmative (Reply 14):
If it was "only" a burst tire one would think that the reversers and remaining braking effect together with the sand pits would be enough to bring the plane to a stop..

Or, the plane went just a tad too fast for the sandpit, which slowed the aircraft down significantly.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 15):
Though we have to treat these reports with skepticism. Almost every runway overrun is described as a failed Go Around at some point soon after the crash.

Isn't that typical?    See above on "PEMD".

Now, one thing that's displeasing to me is that everyone is screaming that the airport's new runway 06/24 is not up to scratch and is deficient etc.
I'm not sure on the required standards, over here, we now have mandatory 300m RESA for new airports/runways... again, that was after the GA200... but here is the problem... you're not supposed to touchdown at 190knots 1/2 way down a less than 2500m runway... All these "deficiencies in lack of runway end safety area" etc etc, does not diminish the fact that something happened which violated the ability to stop in time. Grilling the runway/airport/etc, I am afraid, will diminish the importance of the requirements for a stable approach, and non-optimistic performance numbers.

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlinemorvious From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 707 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 21628 times:

Looking to the last picture I am not sure I am looking at a line for a theme park or a plane crash site. My god that's a lot of people.

May the victims rest in peace!



have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 31
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 21463 times:

One thing mentioned in mandala499's posts - if you want to consider that the aircraft might have departed the runway laterally / concerning where the aircraft went off the runway / airport property.

The crash damaged the ILS Localizer antenna - located past the far end of Rwy 24.

From the Google Earth image we can see the localizer is about 750 feet past the end of the runway and on the runway centerline. It is approx 85 feet wide.

So the aircraft probably could not have gone off the runway by much laterally and still hit the localizer antenna.


User currently offlineAnshuk From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2009, 485 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 21096 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 17):

Veering to a particular direction in an overrun, in my books usually means that they didn't try to go-around (assuming both engines running)... it is usually associated with trying to stop.
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 19):


One thing mentioned in mandala499's posts - if you want to consider that the aircraft might have departed the runway laterally / concerning where the aircraft went off the runway / airport property.

The crash damaged the ILS Localizer antenna - located past the far end of Rwy 24.

From the Google Earth image we can see the localizer is about 750 feet past the end of the runway and on the runway centerline. It is approx 85 feet wide.

So the aircraft probably could not have gone off the runway by much laterally and still hit the localizer antenna.

The Times of India (Sunday Times) reports that the localiser antenna was placed perpendicular to the runway about 200 feet from the end :-|
But then again, the paper also talks about the 1990 BLR crash of an "A 320 Boeing aircraft" :-|


User currently offlineAnshuk From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2009, 485 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 20837 times:

http://www.thehindu.com/2008/09/10/stories/2008091059490300.htm

Nice article hailing the airport.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 31
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 20519 times:

Are you sure the Sunday Times is not reporting 200M instead of feet? Could they have the measurement confused?

Localizer antennas are always constructed at 90 degrees to the beam angle. That is how they work to provide lateral guidance.

Also, a Localizer is not an ILS, but is a component of an ILS. A Glide Path antenna is needed to work with a localizer to make an ILS. The two antenna's usually have separate transmitter buildings. The Glide Path transmitter is usually located near the touchdown point, and the localizer is located at the far end of the runway if possible.

Many places use localizers, but without glide paths for LOC or LDA approaches.

Heck, one airport - KASE / Aspen, CO - uses a localizer located 25,000 feet from the runway to help aircraft line up laterally for their departure path.

[Edited 2010-05-23 12:42:56]

User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4445 posts, RR: 76
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 19501 times:
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Known facts on this accident :
  • Crew at the end of a (10.5 hr +)duty period
  • Airport is captain only
  • Weather fair, calm wind, vis 6000 m +, no rain, temperature 23° C.
  • Approach was ILS (+DME) RWY 24.
  • Aircraft weight around MLW.
  • Airline SOPs require captain-flown approach, Flaps 40 and auto brakes 4 (or is it Max ?)
  • Aircraft landed "long", some 2000 Ft + from the threshold.
  • Aircraft over-ran the RWY, broke the Localizer antennae at RWY end, went past the 180m RESA and plunged over the edge of the cliff, at that time seemingly at low speed ( agree with mandala499 )

All the first seven facts do not sound like a prelude to an accident, which is why #8 comes as quite a surprise.
For the moment and for lack of more information, I just have a few remarks :
  • That crew was tired and even more because of the dawn arrival ( in circadian rythms, the worst time for concentration ).
  • I'm always very wary of the "go-around" theory... mainly because at touch-down the engines will deliver quickly a thrust that will take them quickly aloft again...
  • The crew didn't seem to have any particular difficulty controlling the aircraft along the centerline, which could mean that, tyre burst(s0 or unstowed reversers ( plus the fact that go-around after the reversers are unlocked is a no no ) were not a problem.

We need more facts.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineBoeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 19342 times:

With absolutely no imputations as to their qualifications, I'm just curious as to why Air India has to resort to employing them. Aren't there enough type-rated pilots in India?

25 Post contains links aerobalance : Interesting passenger account here - "After the plane touched down at Mangalore's Bajpe airport, everything seemed to be fine, he said, but within sec
26 Post contains links AVLNative : Interesting theory - thoughts? http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...ilot-error/articleshow/5963900.cms Did airline's bar on hard landings force a pi
27 Post contains links Sampson777 : There are a huge number of type rated pilots in India, particularly on the B737 and A320 aircraft. The issue is that a majority of these pilots are r
28 Post contains links comorin : OK, finally some 'hard' information: The pilot tried to GA after landing, as tower (or pilot) cried "Overshoot! Overshoot!". The throttles were stuck
29 TheCommodore : Why on earth do they allow so many people around the crash site ? Doesn't this contaminate the scene and compromise the disaster investigation ??
30 Gonzalo : With all due respect Comorin, I don't know if we can call "hard" information something with a non specified source ( the article says is from " a tra
31 comorin : You are talking about a country with a huge population. If a plane crashed right in your village, are you going to retreat behind your curtain? India
32 Post contains images TheCommodore : Of course not, but I would expect the authorities to have an exclusion zone that one must stay behind To me it's just common sense, not only for the
33 comorin : Agreed. The onlookers probably got here first becuase of the topography, and may have been difficult to dislodge in the following chaos. To their cre
34 pink77W : i rode my bicycle across india, in every village i stopped i was swarmed by crowds. people even asked me for my autograph. Your not in Kansas anymore.
35 rfields5421 : Actually a contained crash site without onlookers and the curious able to touch some debris is probably the exception, not the norm worldwide. It appe
36 Post contains images gr8circle : As mentioned, the pictures posted are very initial pictures, well before the authorities reached there and took control....the people in the pics wou
37 crosswind82 : Looks like a confusion between braking or going for a TOGA. Survivors talk of intense breaking and engine throttling up. To add to this was a late tou
38 gamps : Regarding onlookers/volunteers - at least one rag - Bangalore Mirror - has a different take. It is a gossip newspaper so take it with bucket of salt -
39 Vivekman2006 : Some reports say that the throttles were found in the forward position. Now, since this was such a high impact accident, how easy or difficult it woul
40 kaitak : I was perusing the PPRUNE thread on this tragic accident and came across a rather disturbing post about the standards of training at AI (rather than A
41 CptRegionalJet : A question for 737 drivers or experts....Will autobrake disengage automatically once you push TOGA during landing roll?
42 kaitak : I'm not an expert or a flyer, but my understanding is that once the spoilers and autobrakes deploy during the landing roll, you are committed to the l
43 affirmative : I agree fully and I'm not taking the eye-witness reports as gospel but in some, and I admit rare, occasions they can give clues to what happened. The
44 HAWK21M : Thats what most Airline companys SOP in case of Aircraft accidents state.In fact a simulated drill is part of the Annual programme of airlines. Howev
45 Post contains images mandala499 : One can see the localizer antennae and a power housing at the end of the sandpit... (google earth by ThreeIfByAir, on the previous thread) Well, let's
46 Pihero : Not quite. It's the activation of the thrust reversers that announces the end of a possible overshoot ( go-around in English). TRhe reason is that di
47 Pihero : One might as well try and bar measles ! Listen, a 1.65 G touch-down is just about at the threshold of a crash landing. I once had a 1.35g dissymetric
48 affirmative : Do we know where this flight originated from? if AI express operates like other LCCs they might have been at the end of a 12 hour plus duty period fl
49 ixemctdca : Handful of salt is correct. Grew up in IXE, flew in/out quite a few times on my last trip in 08/09 & you can only see the old runway from the ter
50 Anshuk : God, the Times of India is annoying me SO much. Its quoted some stupid aviation expert saying the ICAO Runway "Bible" states that the width from the c
51 kaitak : Does anyone know what this equates to in ft/min, or ft/sec?
52 Pihero : 1.65 g equate to : 9.81m/s/s x 1.65 = 15.59 m/s/s Supposing that the deceleration is due to good shock absorbers and takes 1/2 second, v = Acc x t --
53 Post contains images mandala499 : I read somewhere that it's CCJ-DXB-IXE, if so... VOCL-OMDB-VOML, Now, if you are to fly on M0.78 at FL350... (sorry, I can't be bothered to open the
54 Post contains images affirmative : Even if it's not 12 hours almost 10 and all during nighttime is really tough. I bet the pilots were on their last energy packs.. But OTOH a lot of fl
55 Gonzalo : I don't know about AIX, but AFAIK most airlines SOP forbid a configuration change below certain altitudes ( i.e. no speed-brakes below 1.000 ft. AGL
56 mandala499 : Well, example of "stable approach" = - Gear down - Landing flaps - Speed in profile (ie: within +/- 10kt of final approach speed (Vapp or Vref+x) - N
57 Pihero : A good description of what used to be called "dead-stick landing". It is certainly not an example of a serious safety culture... You should be very c
58 Dan23 : Thanks for your informative replies. Will the spoilers retract automatically (along with autobrake disarm) when the thrust levers are advanced or do
59 kaitak : Thanks very much Pihero; that explains it very clearly. A landing at that rate would certainly be felt!
60 mandala499 : It's the same on 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, 300, 310, 319, 320, 321, 330, 340, 380... Speedbrakes will work if none of the thrust levers are beyond a c
61 Dan23 : Thanks for the reply
62 affirmative : These are pretty much the rules I follow and the checks done before landing so I agree fully. Ok, my mistake. I'll instead correct myself and say tha
63 Pihero : Maybe. What I gathered from your post was - You land with approach flaps, - idle thrust - approach speed ( i.e not linked to Vref, due to the low fla
64 Aesma : Maybe they heard the reversers and thought it was engine spool up ?
65 Post contains images affirmative : No apology needed.. That's what I thought.. Let me explain; Our procedure is connected to a Vref +10 for use of the app flaps. This is mainly because
66 Post contains images JoKeR : The body of Captain Glusica has arrived in BEG from India via FRA. His remains were carried out of the BEG airport cargo centre and into the waiting h
67 Post contains links comorin : The Times of India reports that the co-pilot pleaded with the Captain to abort the landing and try again. The paper also reports that the authorities
68 anshuk : I would not trust the newspaper at all. There isn't 1000' available to extend the runway. Unless of course they do something like Madeira. I seriousl
69 comorin : Thanks for adding some perspective to the report! TOI used to be the most respected paper in India (long long ago). I wonder if in this case it would
70 anshuk : True, no its just full of BS. They seem to be stressing on the fact that the pilot tried to go around. The survivors said the plane definitely made a
71 AustrianZRH : Is that really impossible? Because arcsin(400 ft/1.8 km) gives me an angle of 3.8 degrees, which I thought was about the normal approach glideslope.
72 Post contains links AVLNative : Interesting tidbits in the news, if true: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...ash-begins/articleshow/6021190.cms MANGALORE: The court of inquiry co
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