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Runway Incursions-Another Tenerife Just Waiting?  
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1985 posts, RR: 2
Posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5996 times:

Hi All. If this has been discussed before mods please remove.

I was watching the last report from FAA about runway incursions and I have to say is a little alarming to me.
From 2007 to 2008 the incidents increased 13%, and although in 2009 there was a little improvement, the numbers are still very high, around 1.000 incidents for year ( that includes all incidents from minor to close calls ).

My concern is, with this number of incidents, a new tragedy like Tenerife Los Rodeos is waiting to happen, specially considering that the major airports ( with more heavies operating in and out ) are the ones with more active runways working at the same time, and some of this mega-hubs are under bad weather conditions frequently ( two contributing factors already in place for a major mishap ).

Here is the FAA report about the issue.

http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_s...nual_Runway_Safety_Report_2009.pdf

I would like to know your opinions and inputs about this, thanks in advance.

Rgds.

G.


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
8 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4646 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5960 times:

Sadly, im sure it will happen again someday. The highest risk places IMHO are airports like BOS, EWR and LGA where intersecting runways are used on a regular basis. However, we have seen it almost happen at lower activity places like PVD with the UA 757 and FX 727/US 737.


Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineFlyingfox27 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5922 times:

Theres always the risk of something happening but dont forget that Tenerife was a chain of events that, if one of them didnt happen, ie the bomb at Las Palmas, then the two Jumbos wouldnt have even been at Tenerife, or, if the fog didnt roll in then the Tower would have warned the KLM plane in time.

It might not happen on an ordinary day at your average large hub airport like LHR, JFK, LAX, etc, more likely a chain of events would happen first, the important thing is to stop the chain from forming then you wont have the accident hopefully.


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12411 posts, RR: 37
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5832 times:

Quoting Flyingfox27 (Reply 2):
Theres always the risk of something happening but dont forget that Tenerife was a chain of events that, if one of them didnt happen, ie the bomb at Las Palmas, then the two Jumbos wouldnt have even been at Tenerife, or, if the fog didnt roll in then the Tower would have warned the KLM plane in time.

And at the risk of being very pedantic, it was not the incursion per se which caused the crash, since all three parties (ATC, KLM 4805 and Clipper) were aware that the PA 747 would be taxying on the runway; it was the decision of the KLM captain to take off without explicit clearance which caused that tragedy.

That said, you are correct to say that there is a major danger there. On the other hand, new technology - such as Surface Movements Radar (among others) is making a difference. The trouble is, sometimes people are too busy, too stretched (or even too stressed) to use the resources available to them and at that stage, it comes down to human failure.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1985 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5610 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 1):
The highest risk places IMHO are airports like BOS, EWR and LGA where intersecting runways are used on a regular basis.

Those are in my list two, huge amounts of traffic, heavy snowfalls in the winter, and intersecting runways. If you add a couple of mistakes and bad luck to the equation, it's done.

Quoting Flyingfox27 (Reply 2):
dont forget that Tenerife was a chain of events that, if one of them didnt happen

Yes, like all the aviation accidents in general nowadays. We have better technology ( TCAS, SM Radar and much more ), we have modern fleets with better equipment, and a lot of stuff, but the accidents don't stop 100 %, in fact this year we already saw state of art aircraft's crashing ( Ab330, B738's...).
Always hope for the best, but at the same time, you must be prepared for the worst case scenario. IMHO, the FAA analysis is very disturbing considering all the improvements and technology we have at hand.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 3):
On the other hand, new technology - such as Surface Movements Radar (among others) is making a difference.

Do you remember the Malpensa tragedy ? ( Scandinavian MD-80 crash after collide on take off roll with a Citation ).
The airport had SMR, it was stored in a box for five years at the moment of the crash. After the tragedy they rushed to the manufacturer and asked for a quick implementation....but again, after the crash...

How many airports ( major airports or not so big but with high traffic values ) have good SMR technology available and fully operational ?
I'm afraid the number isn't too high, and the worst part is, the best radar in the world is useless if you don't care about it.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineANITIX87 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 3300 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5349 times:
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Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 4):
the FAA analysis is very disturbing considering all the improvements and technology we have at hand.

You do have to take these figures with a grain of salt, though. There is no mistaking that there has been a rise, but I don't think it's despite the technological advantages. Airports are operating at or above capacity in many places, and things like TCAS, improved ATC, new procedures, RNAV, etc, have allowed intervals between arrivals and departures to lessen more and more. We're pretty much at the bare minimum in many places. And THIS creates opportunities for incursions, if the timing can be a bit off. So while the numbers have risen, it could be a direct consequence of new technology, and may not imply an increased danger factor. If we have 13% more runway incursions, but planes are flying closer together than ever, then we haven't deteriorated as much as we think.

What surprises me is how the media decides to spin these things in the USA. Every time it happens, there seems to be a thread on a.net, and articles all over the media. My father flew into ATH during a peak time last week, and e-mailed me afterwards to say the pilot had aborted landing at the very last second (he had already flared) and that, as he climbed away, my dad could see a plane underneath them that was so close he could make out individual faces looking up at him. He said if the plane had been full (it was only about 15% full) he doesn't think the plane would have made it up in time.

TIS



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User currently offlinediesel1 From UK - Wales, joined Mar 2001, 1637 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4939 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 4):
Do you remember the Malpensa tragedy ? ( Scandinavian MD-80 crash after collide on take off roll with a Citation ).

Just to clarify a point from Gonzalo's interesting and considered post, the SAS / Citation accident happened at Milan Linate, not Milan Malpensa



I don't like signatures...
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1985 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4776 times:

Quoting diesel1 (Reply 6):
Just to clarify a point from Gonzalo's interesting and considered post, the SAS / Citation accident happened at Milan Linate, not Milan Malpensa

You are absolutely RIGHT !!! Thank you, don't know what I was thinking.

Saludos.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineferengi80 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 689 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2084 times:
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I'm reminded of US1493 and SKW5569 at LAX on February 1st 1991. This was on Air Crash Investigation on National Geographic not that long ago in the UK. Accident happened when the controller forgot she had placed the SkyWest Metroliner at the threshhold, and gave clearance for the US Air 737 to land. Due to the positioning of a light assembly in front of the Tower, the controller could not see the Metroliner at the threshhold.


AF1981 LHR-CDG A380-800 10 July 2010 / AF1980 CDG-LHR A380-800 11 July 2010
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