RL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4537 posts, RR: 13 Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 12162 times:
While tragic, I am relieved to hear that it was not an act of suicide or terrorism like we saw in TX a few months ago (last time we saw a topic title like this). I think one more incident like that and genreal aviation as we know it would be toast,
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
pnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2046 posts, RR: 12 Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11975 times:
The airport is Buttonville not downtown, and the crash happened in Markham where the aircraft ended up on the roof of a low rise (2 story) office/warehouse type building you see in most suburban locations. Contrary to an initial report it isn't one of Seneca College training aircraft. The view from the circling helicopter shows very little left of the aircraft but it doesn't seem to have penetrated or caused massive damage to the building.
808TWA From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 701 posts, RR: 22 Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11540 times:
Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 3): The airport is Buttonville not downtown, and the crash happened in Markham
Thanks for clarifying, initial reports from Toronto Star were that it was in Toronto, they have updated their report now.
Buttonville sure doesn't leave many choices for an aircraft in distress shortly after take-off. I've flown out of there a couple of times and I also used to live near-by. Watching biz-jets arrive and depart was always quite exciting!
There were talks recently in the press that the airfield may be closed in the near future, this could expedite that premise,
lailaiYYZ From Canada, joined Apr 2006, 32 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11442 times:
God bless. I live near by Buttonville airport as well and I just flew over it yesterday morning practicing overshoot....
And I agree not many choices for places to ditch the airplane in case of failure for Runway 15.. I can only think of the HWY 407 if you have sufficient height. Runway 33 you may have the last option of 404 ..
connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 3857 posts, RR: 13 Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11279 times:
Quoting 808TWA (Reply 5): There were talks recently in the press that the airfield may be closed in the near future, this could expedite that premise,
I've read some of these speculations as well, and I believe it's partly related to 'safety' and partly also going forward with the Pickering Airport proposal (the airport that won't die).
NorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2804 posts, RR: 40 Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11145 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW CHAT OPERATOR
Quoting lailaiYYZ (Reply 6): And I agree not many choices for places to ditch the airplane in case of failure for Runway 15.. I can only think of the HWY 407 if you have sufficient height. Runway 33 you may have the last option of 404 ..
Woodbine itself is another option, its a wide blvd up near YKZ, highway 7 as well though its got central light poles at the intersections.
I remember wondering what a plane with a failed engine coming out of YKZ would do when i worked up there. Everything is office building and warehouses... or residential... not many options besides roads or parking lots.
There is a gold course area north-east of the airport and some other green spaces, but i guess in this case the pilot just didn't have enough altitude to make much of a decision.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
xero9 From Canada, joined Feb 2007, 148 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11053 times:
I thought it's closure was set over the next 6-7 years.
I'm all for the closure of Buttonville, though I do train at this airport, if it means the opening of Pickering Airport which would be much closer to my house.
The Cirrus SR22 from Toronto Airways, crashed after takeoff, apparently trailing smoke.
CBC has confirmed 2 people are dead. May they rest in peace.
Quoting xero9 (Reply 10): I'm all for the closure of Buttonville, though I do train at this airport, if it means the opening of Pickering Airport which would be much closer to my house.
A lot of posters on the web articles agree with you, and to an extent I agree as well. People in the office park where I work, across the 404 from Buttonville, ask me about the possibility of this kind of event happening from time to time (the asking, not accidents). As I live in Cornell, it would be a lot easier for me to restart my pilot training if Pickering was built and Toronto Airways relocated there also. But that would mean going against my neighbours in public hearings, and I'm not the kind of person who would relish that stance.
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 5936 posts, RR: 4 Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10371 times:
Quoting CNZ3 (Reply 11): The Cirrus SR22 from Toronto Airways
I'm assuming it was C- registered, then
I take it from earlier posts (about smoking, and augering in inverted) that there was no CAPS deployment, or at least if there was, it wasn't successful
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
Centre From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 421 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10017 times:
RIP in Peace for the crew and condolences for their families
Our property is right under the approach of Runway 15( Leslie and Major Mackenzie), there is a lot of movements in this airport, and take offs and landings are increasing in frequency.
Has the airplane been on take off /climb out when this happened, or was it one of those go around trainings?
I'm not a NIMBY, but this airport should be relocated as a disaster is waiting to happen.
AF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4 Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9993 times:
Jeez, I just passed my PPL Flight Test yesterday at YKZ and was chatting with the examiner about this very scenario (land on roof off RWY 15). I popped by this afternoon to make sure none of the instructors/dispatchers at Toronto Airways were involved. Very sombre mood over there. I feel so bad for the controller over there, they're all good guys/gal, he was reportedly talking to the pilot right up until the end and triggered the crash alarm.
Quoting CNZ3 (Reply 11): The Cirrus SR22 from Toronto Airways, crashed after takeoff, apparently trailing smoke.
No, TAL doesn't have any Cirrus's at YKZ. This plane came from Burlington for Avionics work at Hi-Tech.
Quoting xero9 (Reply 10): I thought it's closure was set over the next 6-7 years.
It is still, pardon the pun, up in the air. No final decisions have been reached, and the Siftons will likely create another airport farther north (if no Pickering). Maybe even at Foxton Farms?
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 4813 posts, RR: 9 Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9963 times:
A golf course is not usually flat, so not really good to crash-land. The GA airport near my town is adjacent to the town national golf course, I saw the result of a loss of power on T/O of a Piper Aztec that ended up on the course, not pretty.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
xero9 From Canada, joined Feb 2007, 148 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9886 times:
Quoting Aesma (Reply 16): It is still, pardon the pun, up in the air. No final decisions have been reached, and the Siftons will likely create another airport farther north (if no Pickering). Maybe even at Foxton Farms?
Actually correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall hearing that Mike Sifton was the one who wanted to redevelop the land, but has since passed away. Maybe his wife or kids (if he has any) will think twice.
AF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4 Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9776 times:
Quoting Centre (Reply 14): I'm not a NIMBY, but this airport should be relocated as a disaster is waiting to happen.
What about those on the approach to YYZ? Remember Avianca Flight 52 in New York? This is a possibility at any airport. If the airport is relocated out of town, urban sprawl will just bring more neighbours who will complain about noise, danger, etc. Pilots are trained to try and limit the casualties on the ground while trying to make a safe forced landing. We do our best, and fortunately these types of events are so incredibly rare.
Quoting xero9 (Reply 17): Actually correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall hearing that Mike Sifton was the one who wanted to redevelop the land, but has since passed away. Maybe his wife or kids (if he has any) will think twice.
I'm honestly not sure of Derek Sifton's current position on the relocation. I think, though, that if he can make a decent profit (or at least break even) he'll keep YKZ running. They have just revitalized the MillionAir FBO facilities in the main terminal and with the G20/G8 summit, I would imagine that the airport will do lots of business.
He's faster than a speeding bullet, he can leap tall buildings in a single bound; he's Obamaman!!
HotelDJRomeo From Canada, joined Dec 2009, 159 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9228 times:
Quoting AF340 (Reply 18): They have just revitalized the MillionAir FBO facilities in the main terminal and with the G20/G8 summit, I would imagine that the airport will do lots of business.
Except that YKZ is within the closed airspace boundary, and so will be essentially shut down during the G20 in Toronto. Not sure if the summit will get them much extra traffic before/after the closure.
AF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4 Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9109 times:
Quoting HotelDJRomeo (Reply 20): Except that YKZ is within the closed airspace boundary, and so will be essentially shut down during the G20 in Toronto.
Except that according to the Restrictions on the airspace:
CYR541 Section 1:
"Access will be limited to the following aircraft: All regularly scheduled commercial passenger and cargo flights, approved military and police operations, emergency/life-saving flights (including MEDEVAC/organ flights), SAR, approved essential service aircraft, state aircraft on official business, and aircraft carrying VIPs (designated by the RCMP)."
That's what I was referring to. VIPs and other summit-related flights into YKZ. No doubt that normal VFR flights will be severely impacted.
He's faster than a speeding bullet, he can leap tall buildings in a single bound; he's Obamaman!!
HotelDJRomeo From Canada, joined Dec 2009, 159 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8603 times:
Quoting AF340 (Reply 21): That's what I was referring to. VIPs and other summit-related flights into YKZ. No doubt that normal VFR flights will be severely impacted.
I take your point, but I doubt there will be a lot of VIP traffic into YKZ from the summit. The vast - vast - majority of traffic at YKZ are training flights and GA, all of which will be grounded.
Centre From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 421 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 day ago) and read 6713 times:
Quoting AF340 (Reply 18): What about those on the approach to YYZ? Remember Avianca Flight 52 in New York? This is a possibility at any airport. If the airport is relocated out of town, urban sprawl will just bring more neighbours who will complain about noise, danger, etc. Pilots are trained to try and limit the casualties on the ground while trying to make a safe forced landing. We do our best, and fortunately these types of events are so incredibly rare.
YYZ is different in regards to the airliners that are landing and taking off, more advanced, crews have a much higher level of experience and hours, not just beginner or amateurs, and there is a higher level of redundancy built into the aircraft ( twin engine or more in case of engine failure like what we have here versus a single engine for most aircraft at YKZ).
The area surrounding YKZ is much more developed than it was 10 years ago, you can check the history of development of the area using google maps to see.
Quoting spudsmac (Reply 22): lol have you been watching the "seasoned travelers" aka lawyers being interviewed by the news with regards to go around and how "dangerous" they are?
First time to ever hear about it... Thanks for the tip
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
25 DiamondFlyer: So, there is a rule preventing non-airline traffic from operating at YYZ? Or am I mistaken in assuming that, based on what you posted. Plus, anyone f
26 wukka: Amen to that, and hopefully looking for a par 5. That said, all my condolences to the crash victims.
27 KELPkid: A par 3 will do nicely for a single-engined Cessna, as long as there is no dog leg or water hazard
28 Centre: m Most of the traffic at YKZ is GA while that is not the case at YYZ. And there is a lot of training going at YKZ, and that's what I was refering to..
29 LAPA_SAAB340: So why did you folks move near the airport then?
30 413X3: cheap land, of course. So once you buy the cheap land, you work together to get rid of the thing that made the land less desirable, the airport. Then
31 topgun3: I have been contacted by a news outlet about a photo use permission for this photo, which they believe is the aircraft that crashed at YKZ. View Large
32 pnwtraveler: You were just bringing what you heard from media to the site. As usual the media scrambles to be the first, or one of the first, out with a story. In
33 Centre: it's a business and not a house, and for a business you need a good location. I wish that was true in our case... in this area an acre of land sells
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