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What Did Pan Am Do With 747-100 Upper Decks?  
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11798 times:

Hi,

In researching early 747-100's, I have made an interesting discovery about the type's first operator.


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Photo © J.Laporte



Pan Am never fully converted the upper decks of their 747-100's to passenger spaces, as the photo above demonstrates (taken in 1990, right before PA ceased ops in 1991). Most 747-100 operators by this time had converted the upper deck to 6 abreast seating, as evidenced by the added windows upstairs (more than 3 per side), and the evacuation doors up top.

You can tell by this photo (and many more from the same time period of PA 747-100's) that Pan Am apparently never converted this space to a full passenger deck like most other operators.

So what did Pan Am do with their upper deck space on the -100s that they owned, especially towards the end of operations (like the late 1980's through to 1991?). I know they were in dire financial straits at this point in time, but it seems like they could have realized more revenue by converting the upper deck to straight passenger seating...


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinebrenintw From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1712 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11760 times:

Wasn't it more that PA had no choice in the matter? IIRC, the early 741's had structural differences to later ones that precluded installing the 10-a-side window configuration.


I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26026 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11699 times:

The PA upper deck was regular seating -- Clipper(business) Class 2x2.

Also PA was hardly not the only operator that did not bother adding windows to the upper deck -- TWA, United, Tower, Continental etc, all had aircraft with the original window layout.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 11415 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
The PA upper deck was regular seating -- Clipper(business) Class 2x2.

Thanks. Any idea how many rows?

I would probably want a window if I had a business class seat  



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 11244 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 3):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
The PA upper deck was regular seating -- Clipper(business) Class 2x2.

Thanks. Any idea how many rows?

If memory correct, 4 rows, 16 seats. PA converted the upper deck from a first class lounge to J class seats at the sime time as they replaced the original standard F class seats with sleeperette seats.They introduced the F class sleeper seats and their new J class (Clipper Class) product at the same time. I flew on the upper deck of at least one PA 741 in Clipper Class. It only had the 3 windows and was a llittle dark for that reason, and the windows didn't align with the seats. The B cabin (behind F class) was also Clipper Class class with a very spacious 2-2-2 layout and extremely wide aisles, although the seat pitch in those early business class products was only about 38 inches, and no legrests.

Pan Am's 747SPs had a less attractive Clipper Class layout with 8-abreast seating (2-4-2), and the SPs had first class seats on the upper deck if memory correct, as well as in the nose cabin and in the B zone...total of 47 F class on the SPs or thereabouts. The SP's had more F and J seats than Y class which was less than 100 seats at the rear. I believe the 741/742s had 21 F class in the nose cabin after the sleeper seat conversion, also less attractive than many of today's business class products. I think their F class seat pitch on 747s then was 55 inches.

[Edited 2010-05-27 13:44:20]

User currently offlineAckerBacker From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 11046 times:

Don't forget that period in the seventies when Pan Am offered dining room service on the upper deck. Instead of meal service offered at your first class seat (and this was before sleeperettes), you could choose instead to take a seat upstairs at a table for four or two decked out in the grand style. It was a chance to eat well and engage in civil conversation with your fellow travelers over the delights of caviar and prime rib and fine wines and tasty cheeses and port or amaretto or whatever you could want. Who cared that your table might not have a window when you were on your third cognac and sounding absolutely brilliant in your tete-a-tete with these wonderful strangers. And you could smoke, too!

Alas, the dining room went out with the sleeperettes, when lower deck F seating went to 21 (1K was a solo seat with that slight forward view) and the upper deck went to 10 F seats (or was it 14? My recollection is three rows on the left, two on the right, but I could be wrong.) This would have been 81 or so. By the mid-eighties the UDs were converted to J seating (except on the SP, which remained 16 slightly cramped F sleeper seats until the fleet was sold to United in 86).

PA did some things very well, and their UD Dining Room was one of them.

Ahh... the glory days!


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4956 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10928 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
I believe the 741/742s had 21 F class in the nose cabin after the sleeper seat conversion,

Yes, most of their 747s were configured at 21F 44C 347Y. There was a subfleet that they used for South America which had bigger First and Clipper Class cabins (Y was only about 286 seats IIRC, compared to 347) - these were the ex-UA birds (e.g., N4703U, N4704U)

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
The SP's had more F and J seats than Y class which was less than 100 seats at the rear.

Yes, the SPs were configured at 47F 100C 86Y. Economy was squeezed in the small section between doors 3L and 4L.


User currently offlineJohnClipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 855 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10214 times:

According to my PA timetables...

747 Typical
First Class - Rows 1-5 21 seats
Clipper Class - Rows 6-9 (UD) - 14 seats
- Rows 10-17 lower deck - 30 seats
Economy - Rows 18-57 - 347 seats

747 South America
First Class - Rows 1-9 39 seats
Clipper Class - Rows 10-13 (UD) - 16 seats
- Rows 14-19 lower deck - 32 seats
Economy - Rows 27-55 - 286 seats


User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4656 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 5 days ago) and read 9475 times:

Quoting AckerBacker (Reply 5):
Alas, the dining room went out with the sleeperettes

I did read that the reason for this was that not many passengers wanted to use the dining room, so it was scrapped.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineLatinPlane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2737 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 5 days ago) and read 9454 times:

The Upper deck of a 747-100 in 1987

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pPfh4HlU5o


User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3651 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 5 days ago) and read 9417 times:

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 8):
I did read that the reason for this was that not many passengers wanted to use the dining room, so it was scrapped.

I'm sure the reason for the dining room was tradition carried over from railroads, which was still a mode of travel fresh in peoples' minds in the 1970's (hell, my family pretty routinely still took long distance train trips well into the 1980's, and I still remember riding the last private long distance train in the United States - the Southern Crescent - in about 1979). Train travel had only really fallen off a cliff in the 1960's, and many of the people who could afford first class were used to separate dining accommodations. In fact, in really every mode of transportation prior to air travel, dining was expected to be separate from your seat.

But perhaps Pan Am had misjudged the market, especially given their routes (kinda hard to take a train over a transoceanic route, and I doubt a lot of PA's passengers had migrated from ocean liners, so maybe people weren't really used to this on their routes). I also think you're not stuck in your seat long enough on an airplane to get tired of it, whereas on a train (or a ship) it can be a welcome break to go to the dining car.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlinePAAPURSER From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 6 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8666 times:

Quoting AckerBacker (Reply 5):
PA did some things very well, and their UD Dining Room was one of them.

Amen, brotha! The UD dining experience was like no other! Anyone who has every dined in the upper deck still remembers it raves about it! Contrary to a previous post, everyone wanted to dine upstairs...everyone!
As a purser, you had to "invite"the lucky 14 who had pre-reserved arrangements to dine upstairs. The other 14 (FICL on PAA on the 747 at the time was configured 6 rows of 4, plus 2 rows of 2 aft of L1 for a total of 28) begrudgingly dined on the main deck. The UD had 3 tables of 4 and 1 table of 2 which seemed to be always broken, which created on occasional overbooking problem.
There were name cards for assigned seating which the Purser had to arrange and floral centerpieces. The menu was the same as downstairs but served from the UD galley. After the cocktail service, one F/A went upstairs to assist the galley attendant; the Purser and one galley attendant remained downstairs. Many times, passengers ended up staying in the UD well after the meal service ended, talking the whole flight. If not, it turned into the crew dining room.
Pure economics and the invention of business class signaled the death of the UD dining. When the sleeperettes were installed, the meal serviced evolved into "Banquette Service". A tray table extension was installed between the tray tables of each set of 2 seats...and it was to replicate a banquet table to 2. However, passengers felt locked in by the tray table extensions...and that was the end of that.
Wow, were those the days or what?

Quoting AckerBacker (Reply 5):
PA did some things very well, and their UD Dining Room was one of them.


User currently offlinen501us From United States of America, joined May 2005, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8361 times:
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Quoting brenintw (Reply 1):
Wasn't it more that PA had no choice in the matter? IIRC, the early 741's had structural differences to later ones that precluded installing the 10-a-side window configuration.

FWIW, all of NWA's 747-151s were modified to the 10 window configuration



Fools and thieves are well disguised in the temple and the marketplace.....
User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2742 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8281 times:

Quoting n501us (Reply 12):
Quoting brenintw (Reply 1):
Wasn't it more that PA had no choice in the matter? IIRC, the early 741's had structural differences to later ones that precluded installing the 10-a-side window configuration.

FWIW, all of NWA's 747-151s were modified to the 10 window configuration

I believe UA also modified all their 747-122's as well to 10 window per side upper decks. However UA did not modify the 747's they got from Pan Am in the Pacific sale.


User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4656 posts, RR: 23
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8272 times:

Quoting PAAPURSER (Reply 11):
Amen, brotha! The UD dining experience was like no other! Anyone who has every dined in the upper deck still remembers it raves about it! Contrary to a previous post, everyone wanted to dine upstairs...everyone!

I read from another PAA Purser that it was pulled because they were having trouble getting people to dine upstairs. Jay Koren, in his book... I believe   I am sure it was popular initially, but eventually not.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7959 times:

Quoting bohica (Reply 13):
I believe UA also modified all their 747-122's as well to 10 window per side upper decks. However UA did not modify the 747's they got from Pan Am in the Pacific sale.

As far as I recall, the only Pan Am 747s that went to UA as part of the Pacific route sale were the 11 747SPs, so there was nothing to modify.


User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2742 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7449 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15):
Quoting bohica (Reply 13):
I believe UA also modified all their 747-122's as well to 10 window per side upper decks. However UA did not modify the 747's they got from Pan Am in the Pacific sale.

As far as I recall, the only Pan Am 747s that went to UA as part of the Pacific route sale were the 11 747SPs, so there was nothing to modify.

You're probably right. The 747's I was thinking of were 747-123's which were originally delivered to AA. After AA those planes went to various operators before joining UA's fleet. The 747-123's were not modified and still had the 3 windows per side upper deck when UA retired them.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8457 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6995 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
The B cabin (behind F class) was also Clipper Class class with a very spacious 2-2-2 layout and extremely wide aisles, although the seat pitch in those early business class products was only about 38 inches, and no legrests.

All Clipper Class was 2-4-2 initally on all 747's, later around 1985 it went to the 2-2-2 configuration on the 741's.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
Pan Am's 747SPs had a less attractive Clipper Class layout with 8-abreast seating (2-4-2), and the SPs had first class seats on the upper deck if memory correct, as well as in the nose cabin and in the B zone...total of 47 F class on the SPs or thereabouts. The SP's had more F and J seats than Y class which was less than 100 seats at the rear. I believe the 741/742s had 21 F class in the nose cabin after the sleeper seat conversion, also less attractive than many of today's business class products. I think their F class seat pitch on 747s then was 55 inches.

When the Pan AM 747SP's flew from JFK to NRT, SFO to HKG and LAX to SYD they were the standard what is offered today looks very different. Back then ANA didn't fly to JFK, Cathay didn't fly nonstop to SFO yet, and Qantas only had 2 SP's so its nonstops were limited to LAX from SYD. The expansion of Asia's airlines(non-Japan) in the 1980's and the 744 changed everything. When JAL started nonstop JFK to NRT( JAL had been flying to JFK for years by then ) in 1983 with full sized 747-200B's PA's days as the only nonstop airline from JFK to NRT ended.


User currently offlinedc863 From Denmark, joined Jun 1999, 1558 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6156 times:

I flew on PA's upper deck Clipper Class in the summer of '85, '87, '88. Basically felt like you were on a private airplane compared to the main deck.

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