enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6130 posts, RR: 13 Posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5674 times:
This compares what is for sale THIS WEEK for the stated period versus what was for sale LAST WEEK...It does NOT compare to last year or now.
How to read:
ABE-MDT 3>2 APR means a reduction in one roundtrip from 3 to 2 for April only
ABE-MDT 3.8>2.7 APR-JUN This is the raw format of the data which sometimes I'm too lazy to retype. It means that over a month they were averaging a little less than 4 trips per day and now it's a little less than 3 per day. So, basically they cancelled 8 flights per week or so. Airlines are doing A LOT of non-daily ops now, so these fractions are pervasive.
ABE-MDT 4>6 MAY- means an increase from 4 to 6 roundtrips starting in May and continuing
ABE-MDT 4>6 MAY-JUN, 5>6 JUL means the change is only for the stated period May to June and then a different change for July in the same route
Please take it easy on any typos, there was a lot to type...
3E
Last week or so future service in these markets was deleted from OAG, now they have been added back for July only.
ORD-BRL 0>2
ORD-DEC 0>2
STL-BRL 0>2
STL-DEC 0>3
STL-IRK 0>2
SA)">9K
These changes are all JUN-OCT
SJU-EIS 8>5
SJU-MAZ 5>4
SJU-STT 9>6
SJU-VQS 7>4
STX-STT 9>6
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6130 posts, RR: 13 Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5428 times:
Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1): Always surprised that this flight is even still around. Operated for a travel company, e.g. Apple Vacations?
That's a good guess. Apple is big in CVG.
Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1): So, it's now gone 4-5-4-3-4, or did I miss another 3-4 switch?
I believe that's right, although I can only check the schedule once per week. I wonder if they change it every couple of days and I don't even see it. LOL
Well, they aren't as bad as Aeromexico, but nobody is...
FL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1499 posts, RR: 12 Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5403 times:
No FL has had a monopoly on BOS-SRQ for a while now even though it should be a B6 route. With FL only flying it on the weekends this past winter, B6 must have thought now was the time to start it. I don't really see any reason for FL to keep BOS-SRQ unless the route can really support more than one flight on some days.
That's disappointing but not surprising. LAX is the only FL route out of BWI besides BOS that has two other carriers and with WN extending their seasonal flights and UA extending their second flight, it would be very difficult to make money in the Fall. I think FL will bring BWI-LAX back in December when WN is gone and UA is down to one flight.
KcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3628 posts, RR: 7 Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5158 times:
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4720 posts, RR: 15 Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4976 times:
mtnwest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2120 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4355 times:
BTW, I don't understand why this weird string gets added into my post. It's a glitch with a.net, not me.
Quoting FL787 (Reply 3): No FL has had a monopoly on BOS-SRQ for a while now even though it should be a B6 route.
Could it be that FL recently loaded it for next Winter even though they do that every year? I seem to remember it being added into the schedule. That doesn't mean they never flew it before, just that it wasn't for sale until then. When something gets loaded it's often an alarm clock to the other carriers to do something about it.
Quoting FL787 (Reply 3): That's disappointing but not surprising.
Quoting SANFan (Reply 5): Interesting that FL is pulling their flight while WN has recently extended theirs (thru the end of October, as of now...)
All true. FL is pretty responsive, so they probably saw WN's move and backed down.
According to OAG, YES it is done. OTOH, ZK is well known for bluffing to close stations only to get a bigger check from the govt or whoever pays for it. I assume this one is EAS like most of their network?
iowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4089 posts, RR: 7 Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4233 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 7): I assume this one is EAS like most of their network?
This has to be one of the smallest cities in the lower 48 EAS domestic network- with a population of less than 2,700 in Wolf Point. Obviously it's very isolated and thus the only reason it has EAS, as you can literally count the amount of people flying in and out of Wolf Point on your fingers.
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4720 posts, RR: 15 Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3766 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 7): FL is pretty responsive, so they probably saw WN's move and backed down.
Fascinating way of doing business. I remember in the good old days when the response by FL -- or somebody else in this situation -- would have been to fight back and extend there own flight to match or beat WN's service dates! (I know, I know, it's a different world now.)
In SAN, we are certainly aware of the "competitiveness" of AirTran...
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6130 posts, RR: 13 Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3016 times:
Quoting SANFan (Reply 9): Fascinating way of doing business. I remember in the good old days when the response by FL -- or somebody else in this situation -- would have been to fight back and extend there own flight to match or beat WN's service dates! (I know, I know, it's a different world now.)
I don't think it's a "run and hide". It's "pick your battles". If it were MKE where FL is a lot bigger than WN you'd see fire and brimstone fall from the sky if WN went into MKE-LAX, but in BWI where WN has a massive hub, little FL is not in a position to put a whopping on WN. FL's strategy in BWI is pretty clearly to stay away from WN except to Florida where FL believes they are strong enough to go head to head. I still expect FL will start backing down on BWI-BOS.
Quoting iowaman (Reply 8): This has to be one of the smallest cities in the lower 48 EAS domestic network- with a population of less than 2,700 in Wolf Point. Obviously it's very isolated and thus the only reason it has EAS, as you can literally count the amount of people flying in and out of Wolf Point on your fingers.
BTW you quoted the wrong person somehow, but anyway I would assume that either the city is losing EAS or ZK is playing games to get more money. It could be the latter because cities don't fall out of the EAS very frequently.
RL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4537 posts, RR: 13 Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2999 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 10): I still expect FL will start backing down on BWI-BOS.
I dont... B6 will crack first, esp with DCA coming on... with B6 gone, the two can coexist better.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
FlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6049 posts, RR: 25 Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2948 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 10): FL's strategy in BWI is pretty clearly to stay away from WN except to Florida where FL believes they are strong enough to go head to head.
Then why has FL launched BWI-SAT, BWI-IND and BWI-MSY in the past year?
RL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4537 posts, RR: 13 Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2935 times:
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 12): Then why has FL launched BWI-SAT, BWI-IND and BWI-MSY in the past year?
and BWI-JAX....
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6130 posts, RR: 13 Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2514 times:
Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 11): I dont... B6 will crack first, esp with DCA coming on... with B6 gone, the two can coexist better.
B6 is amping things up with WN. i.e. BOS-PHX. They won't crack.
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 12): Then why has FL launched BWI-SAT, BWI-IND and BWI-MSY in the past year?
That's a good point. Maybe I should say it "was" their strategy.
Nevertheless, they don't really compete with WN in business destinations except IND which is really there because of IND (where they want to be relevant) and not BWI and BOS where they were in there first. I know you would argue that LAX is a business destination, but only flying it seasonally makes it a leisure destination because business people won't be loyal to a seasonal flight.
RL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4537 posts, RR: 13 Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2418 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 14): B6 is amping things up with WN. i.e. BOS-PHX. They won't crack.
BWI they will because DCA is better... you didn't see B6 do BOS-MDW or try compete on BOS-ORD
B6 has been rather dumb when it comes to WN at BOS because they could have easily shut out their growth proactively rather than reacting to it.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4720 posts, RR: 15 Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2198 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 10): FL's strategy in BWI is pretty clearly to stay away from WN except to Florida where FL believes they are strong enough to go head to head. I still expect FL will start backing down on BWI-BOS
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 12): Then why has FL launched BWI-SAT, BWI-IND and BWI-MSY in the past year
Quoting enilria (Reply 14): Nevertheless, they don't really compete with WN in business destinations except IND which is really there because of IND (where they want to be relevant) and not BWI and BOS where they were in there first. I know you would argue that LAX is a business destination, but only flying it seasonally makes it a leisure destination because business people won't be loyal to a seasonal flight
I've mentioned on other threads about the BWI-w/c market situation and wondered about retaliation and one-upsmanship.
WN has very successfully op'd SAN-BWI for several years now; during that period, for a couple of years it was WN's only transcon (and has op'd 2x daily pretty much the entire run since it started in Feb of '03.) WN is the only one on the route. How much traffic is business vs leisure, and how much is O&D vs connections (on both ends), I don't know.
FL has seasonally op'd SEA-BWI for a while now. And this summer, WN has entered the SEA-BWI market for the first time, also seasonally.
My thinking was that this would be a great opportunity for FL to make a strategic move in SAN, a station that they have struggled with since they started service in May 2007 -- not even being able to sustain year-round service here since that first year of op's! Perhaps, I reasoned, FL might take on WN here and start flying SAN-BWI, at least seasonally, as an "up-yours" to Canyon Blue for SEA-BWI. As usual, nothing has been heard from the AirTran camp...
(Side note: FL is now engaged with F9 in a bit of a battle between SAN and MKE so we'll see how that progresses.)
I admit that I haven't kept pace with the LA-BAL route except to know that both WN and FL are on and off in that market as well -- plus UA is a permanent participant. There do, however, seem to be moves being made in that market.
So in light of all these comments about WN vs FL at BWI, it appears that SAN is another case where FL could/should/might be interested but isn't...
mtnwest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2120 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2138 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 7): OTOH, ZK is well known for bluffing to close stations only to get a bigger check from the govt or whoever pays for it. I assume this one is EAS like most of their network?
But isn't OLF lumped in with Sidney, Glendive, Glasglow, and Miles City in one EAS bid? I would think they'd be saying they'd end all cities, maybe not though. I am amazed Wolf Point EVER had scheduled service. I thought that back when Frontier ( I ) flew Twin Otters into there.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6130 posts, RR: 13 Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1825 times:
Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 15): BWI they will because DCA is better
IAD is much/much/much more overlapping with DCA than BWI. I think IAD is in much more trouble. I think the only reason B6 keeps a toe in the water at IAD is in case UA/CO somehow leaves an opening at IAD in their consolidation...I mean merger LOL.
Hmm?? They fly BOS-ORD do they not? Not sure what you mean.
Quoting SANFan (Reply 16): My thinking was that this would be a great opportunity for FL to make a strategic move in SAN
Didn't they drop ATL-SAN? If they aren't flying that I'd be shocked to see them in BWI against WN.
Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 17): But isn't OLF lumped in with Sidney, Glendive, Glasglow, and Miles City in one EAS bid? I would think they'd be saying they'd end all cities, maybe not though. I am amazed Wolf Point EVER had scheduled service. I thought that back when Frontier ( I ) flew Twin Otters into there.
No idea about that. It doesn't look like a mistake, though, they pretty clearly reworked the network to drop it. Do they even have a newspaper to call? LOL
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4720 posts, RR: 15 Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1709 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 18): Didn't they drop ATL-SAN? If they aren't flying that I'd be shocked to see them in BWI against WN
They did. Announced a couple of months ago for this (summer) season, 2x daily SAN-MKE and 0x SAN-ATL! My thinking was if they were interested in trying to make SAN a real (serious) station, while digging at WN a bit, maybe they would try (in addition to MKE) a different approach -- let DL have it's ATL market (duh!) and look for something else... (Maybe they just can't imagine more than 2 planes a day in and out of Lindbergh... they don't want to overtax their part-time, seasonal "employees"!)
Of course MCO-SAN, done correctly this time, would be the most logical choice for them but I won't get started on THAT subject again...
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6130 posts, RR: 13 Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1547 times:
Quoting SANFan (Reply 19): Of course MCO-SAN, done correctly this time, would be the most logical choice for them but I won't get started on THAT subject again...
4 Words; low - yield, high - fuel
It's true that VX and B6 do it, but FL is a little smarter.
Quoting SANFan (Reply 19): My thinking was if they were interested in trying to make SAN a real (serious) station, while digging at WN a bit
They could do it, but if I was the Planning guy I'd put ATL as a higher priority because of the dramatically higher connecting options compared to BWI. Plus I think you'd rather have a gigantic cost advantage against DL rather than a small one against WN.
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From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6130 posts, 
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when the response by FL -- or somebody else in this situation -- would have been to fight back and extend there own flight to match or beat WN's service dates! (I know, I know, it's a different world now.) 
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