Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity  
User currently offlinesxb From France, joined Sep 2008, 136 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 13669 times:

Link in French: http://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/2010...are-l-abandon-de-l-avion-cargo.php

Air France will announce on Monday that they will no longer have a dedicated cargo fleet but use the passenger planes instead. All related staff and services will be transferred to the passenger activity.

2 of the 5 remaining cargo planes will be returned to ILFC in 2013.


SXB
59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6187 posts, RR: 30
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 13517 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting sxb (Thread starter):
All related staff and services will be transferred to the passenger activity.

I thought the point for closing the operation was to cut costs. How will the above accomplish that goal? Why keep the employees if you are getting rid of the aircraft?



MGGS
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30914 posts, RR: 87
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 13368 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

So Martinair will be handling all of the AF/KL Group's cargo ops?

FX will surely take the rest of AF's 777 Freighters.


User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1701 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 13335 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
So Martinair will be handling all of the AF/KL Group's cargo ops?

Not exactly related with this post but, is it normal for KLM Cargo plane to use Martinair flight number??

the other day I was waiting for my take off in NBO and a KLM B744 was on my side waiting as well but they were Martinair 85, I think they were going further south, don´t know where exactly.....

If AF is going to close dedicate cargo will they open some new routes were they have cargo ops only???


User currently offlinepetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3364 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 13299 times:

Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):
Not exactly related with this post but, is it normal for KLM Cargo plane to use Martinair flight number??

The last few months KLM has leased their 747ERFs to Martinair since KLM had no need for them in the current economy. This made it possible for Martinair to park their less efficient 747Fs. You will find that on the KLM Cargo 747s there are small operated by Martinair titles.



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2718 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 13115 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 1):
Quoting sxb (Thread starter):
All related staff and services will be transferred to the passenger activity.

I thought the point for closing the operation was to cut costs. How will the above accomplish that goal? Why keep the employees if you are getting rid of the aircraft?

AF is a national icon in France; Firing people for cost saving is EXTREMELY ill viewed in France. AF cannot politically afford to do it even if it appears to make immediate economic sense. It will probably cost them less overall to keep the people!



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 12974 times:

Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):
Not exactly related with this post but, is it normal for KLM Cargo plane to use Martinair flight number??

All former KL freight routes have both a KL and MP flightnumber.

Quoting sxb (Thread starter):

2 of the 5 remaining cargo planes will be returned to ILFC in 2013.

And what will happen with the other 3?


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12436 posts, RR: 37
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 12827 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 6):
Quoting sxb (Thread starter):

2 of the 5 remaining cargo planes will be returned to ILFC in 2013.

And what will happen with the other 3?

Aren't these already with FedEx?

Apart from the 772s, there are also 744Fs (incl. BCFs) which are operated by AF Cargo. What will happen to these?

JAL did much the same thing (ending its dedicated cargo operation) not too long ago; I wonder if other airlines will follow suit?


User currently offlinesxb From France, joined Sep 2008, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 12731 times:

It's not really clear regarding the 5 planes,
It seems that 3 are 744 ERF leased from ILFC and 2 are 777 F owned by AF.
IIRC the 2 777 have been sold and I would suppose that the 3 744 will be returned to ILFC (might be a mistake from the newspaper when they talk about 2 planes being returned).



SXB
User currently offlinehotplane From UK - England, joined Jul 2006, 1038 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10035 times:

This must of been in the pipeline for a while, so why take delivery of the 777Fs?


?
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13023 posts, RR: 100
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9225 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting hotplane (Reply 9):
This must of been in the pipeline for a while, so why take delivery of the 777Fs?

I'm thinking that AF didn't anticipate the sharp cargo drop during the recession. I'm also thinking that AF's cargo costs are not competitive with KLM/Martainair.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 5):
It will probably cost them less overall to keep the people!

FX, EK, and others thank them. Long term this means slower growth for AF as they pay of debt accrued keeping on the people. Good for the employees, bad for AF's long term competitiveness.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2703 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9207 times:

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 5):
AF is a national icon in France; Firing people for cost saving is EXTREMELY ill viewed in France. AF cannot politically afford to do it even if it appears to make immediate economic sense. It will probably cost them less overall to keep the people!

That is one of the most screwed up things I have heard anyone say on A-Net in a while! Surely the people of France can understand the need for layoffs in a slow economy...


User currently offlineCM767 From Panama, joined Dec 2004, 654 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9001 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 11):
That is one of the most screwed up things I have heard anyone say on A-Net in a while! Surely the people of France can understand the need for layoffs in a slow economy...


My friend you should get to know France a little bit, you will be amazed.



But The Best Thing God Has Created Is A New Day
User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1841 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8419 times:

Quoting CM767 (Reply 12):
My friend you should get to know France a little bit, you will be amazed.

Interesting. I'd be curious to know    


User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4772 posts, RR: 43
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8292 times:

so what will happen to the current B 777F fleet and the remaining ones on order?

If they want to sell all their B 777Fs, I'm sure either EK, QR or EY would be greatly interested in purchasing them for a decent price.


User currently offlineJAL From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 5085 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8198 times:

What would happen to their order for 777-Fs?


Work Hard But Play Harder
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30914 posts, RR: 87
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7711 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting behramjee (Reply 14):
so what will happen to the current B 777F fleet and the remaining ones on order?

FX has already agreed to take AF's last two birds once they complete assembly and I imagine AF will shift the three they operate to them, as well. FX appears to adore the 77F and is taking as many as they can get their hands on as fast as they can.


User currently offlineTwinOtter4Ever From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7707 times:

AC dumped their separate cargo fleet as well, however they were able to carry most or all of their cargo aboard passenger flights with the 777s due to the great carrying capacity. This could help off set low passenger numbers on certain flights...I'm not sure If AF has this in mind or are they jump off loading the whole thing?..

User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7562 times:

Quoting TwinOtter4Ever (Reply 17):
AC dumped their separate cargo fleet as well,

So did JAL...

I reckon AF will use its partners for dedicated cargo flights when necessary.


User currently offlinevarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1594 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 7442 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 11):
That is one of the most screwed up things I have heard anyone say on A-Net in a while! Surely the people of France can understand the need for layoffs in a slow economy...

OzGlobal is right, this comment is not screwed up at all.
The French remember the billions of € (or French Francs better) that AF cost us in the past when they needed to be salvaged all the time, therefore people couldn't really understand massive layoffs especially in dire times



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4169 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7274 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 11):
That is one of the most screwed up things I have heard anyone say on A-Net in a while! Surely the people of France can understand the need for layoffs in a slow economy...

It's not screwed up at all. Air France. as a responsible employer, will try every other option before redundancies, such as short time working, job sharing, voluntary redundacies etc etc. Firing people is an easy option when there are other ways to achieve the necessary savings - most other companies are either A) too damn lazy to look for them, or B) just using an economic slowdown to get rid of people they dont like.

I applaud AF for looking for ways to save other than just sacking people. People do have children to feed....

Quoting CM767 (Reply 12):
My friend you should get to know France a little bit, you will be amazed.

Yes, Amazed that the French have a social conscience and dont always take the easy way out. There are lots of things about the French system that people find objectionable (like the love of striking), but surely this shouldnt be one of them.

AF will of course, if it has absolutely no choice, seek redundancies, but it is never the first option like in some other airlines.

Finally, on the subject of binning the cargo operation - then good!! It is a financial dog at the moment, contributing a 500 million Euro loss alone last year. It drags the rest of AF down.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineGothamSpotter From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6822 times:

According to the Air France site, they currently operate 11 cargo aircraft: 1 747-200F, 2 777F and 8 747-400ERF.

http://corporate.airfrance.com/en/fleet/cargo-fleet/

Were there already plans to unload some of these? Why does the article only mention 5 planes?


User currently offlineairbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4268 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6762 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 7):
JAL did much the same thing (ending its dedicated cargo operation) not too long ago; I wonder if other airlines will follow suit?

So far just announced. JL is still flying the freighters until late October.



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineebj1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6757 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 11):
Surely the people of France can understand the need for layoffs in a slow economy...

If your national culture frowns on such things, your company will be frowned on if you lay off people. In Japan, at the height of the economic downturn, it was reported that the layoffs that took place were the first ever for Japanese companies. Getting rid of airplanes is apparently more acceptable that getting rid of people. And the operational savings are likely a lot higher when it's airplanes that go.



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6737 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 11):
That is one of the most screwed up things I have heard anyone say on A-Net in a while!

I agree that it is a screwed up way of doing business, but I don't doubt that is the way things are done in France, or Japan for that matter. Even the US is not completely clean in such matters.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
FX appears to adore the 77F and is taking as many as they can get their hands on as fast as they can.

Yeah, it seems that Fed Ex is more than happy to be getting more of them sooner.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
25 ETinCaribe : Does AF lose $$$ in these transactions or does FX pick up the full tab since there aren't too many 777F available as it is?
26 413X3 : What cargo fleet? You mean the ACMI World Airways MD-11Fs?
27 jolau1701 : Come to think if it, are there any passenger airlines in the US that has a separate cargo operation? I think the NW did it at least until the merger w
28 art : I would say that a right to job security was deeply ingrained in the French psyche until quite recently and legislation reflects that (extremely expe
29 PanHAM : Employees as shareholders would mean that they are owners of the company at the same time and would have to underwrite any necessity to reduce costs,
30 rfields5421 : Maybe I have a misunderstanding of how the business works - but how is going from a fleet of a dozen or so dedicated freight aircraft to carrying fre
31 Avianca : there is certain cargo that can only uplifted on Cargo Aircrafts...
32 2175301 : Unless the rules have changed in the last decade - Hazardous and dangerous cargo is not allowed on passenger planes. A good chunk of cargo falls into
33 mindscape : Rather pompous way to say German's efficiency tops the French one... At the end, the company is restructuring, and if the returns of profit is to fee
34 413X3 : Technically Alaska still has their 737-400F. I believe it's only a fleet of one though, so nothing huge. But that's it. Sad
35 ozglobal : Maybe, but I work in a large French multinational with significant presence in Germany and I can tell you that our dealings with workers councils are
36 Post contains images j0rdan : AC canceled two orders for 777F's, I'm not sure if they still contract World Airways for cargo ops. + 5 combi's. jordan
37 rfields5421 : Avianca, & 2175301 Thanks
38 sxb : Looks like it's not up to date on AF website (they say that it's as of 03/31) Looking at airfleets.net The 742 cargo (F-GCBM) was sold to Midex Airli
39 ha763 : A lot of cargo that falls under dangerous goods regulations have been carried on passenger aircraft for as long as aircraft have been carrying cargo.
40 PanHAM : The mis-understanding is, that the capacity in passenger jets has been there and has been used as well. The cut of the all cargo fleet is actually a
41 DocLightning : Well, they can get rid of them through more palatable methods like voluntary early retirement with a bonus to sweeten the deal and plain, old attriti
42 PanHAM : The right mix does it and the connectivity. Connectivty means the hundred thousands of options available to route connecting cargo through CDG. Witho
43 LAXintl : I think it has a lot to do with an airlines cost structure. Dedicated cargo ops cost money from equipment to infrastructure and certainly labor. Even
44 LASoctoberB6 : So are they going to re-convert '47s like JA8906 back to a passenger version, or is that impossible or that they're just letting go of the aircraft(s
45 BMI727 : It is possible I suppose, but very difficult and probably not worth the money and effort particularly for rather old aircraft. Even after it's done,
46 varig md-11 : I agree. I think a lot has been unsaid by AF management to prevent unions to make a scandal: since AF/KL owns MP , which is abandoning pax flights an
47 PanHAM : well, then let's wait and see when the first MP cargo flight departs CDG on a route formerly served by AF main deck capacity. That could be fun.
48 Post contains images Burkhard : The legal value of a working contract is very different in the Anglo-American-Israel world compared to Continental Europe. It is as much protected by
49 PanHAM : There are no lifetime contracts in the private sector and the public sector will have to kiss that good bye as well. True is, that it would be a very
50 Burkhard : I know that the private sector actively exploits the limits of the law, but fortunately these experimets are costly when it comes to court. And a lot
51 LASoctoberB6 : Oh, that's right..
52 Burkhard : Aren't they bringing a lot of cargo to Hahn already now on trucks and put them into all the Aeroflot MD11 and other spotters dreams?
53 PanHAM : I don't know if AF has interlining agreements with SU, I doubt that. They would have to pay SU eventually much more than the revenue AF can yield. The
54 LJ : Didn't Skyteam also had an idea about making it a global cargo alliance next to a global alliance for pax? Would be a grate way of saying your own de
55 PanHAM : Yes, the Global Cargo Alliance was a project announced at a freight conference (TIACA) in Bilbao a couple of years ago. Four years if I amnot mistaken
56 ha763 : All of JAL's 747-400s will be retired from the fleet by the end of FY2010 (March 31, 2011). Also, it would not make any sense to reconvert a 747-400B
57 hardiwv : It seems that Martinair Cargo will become AF/KL mainland cargo-only operator. Have the 747ERF returned from Martinair Cargo to KL Cargo? Rgs,
58 PanHAM : As mentioned above, the article in Le Figaro was a false report. A spokesperson of Air France said that AF will stick to their 5 aircraft freighter ai
59 LJ : It was mentioned in the article ( "Contactée par Le Figaro, la direction d'Air France reconnaît «travailler», mais dément tout projet d'abandon
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
AF To Fly Non Stop LYS-EWR In 05? posted Mon Sep 20 2004 17:14:52 by Skyteam10001
AF To Start CDG-DFW N-stop Service On May 7 posted Wed Nov 15 2000 01:30:04 by Dellatorre
CO To Stop EWR-BRS November 7 posted Tue Apr 6 2010 06:16:31 by david_itl
AF To Resume CDG-SGN Nonstop Winter 2010 posted Sat Apr 3 2010 01:51:53 by FlySSC
JAL To Stop All-Freighter Operation From Oct. 2010 posted Thu Mar 25 2010 10:05:06 by airbuseric
Iberia To Stop Short Haul posted Tue Mar 16 2010 15:46:32 by hotplane
Indian Pilots Threaten To Stop Kabul Flights posted Fri Mar 5 2010 11:35:41 by 777way
YEG Wants People To Stop Flying To YYC posted Tue Mar 2 2010 07:37:36 by Hawaiian763
JAL Proposing To Stop International Flights posted Fri Jan 1 2010 13:02:58 by Tommytoyz
Body Scan Only Way To Stop Suicide Bomber posted Wed Dec 30 2009 09:22:35 by Eugdog