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Late-night Flights From Israel To The US. Why?  
User currently offlineDAL763ER From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 487 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 23256 times:
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I was reading a trip report by someone from Israel and there was a photo of the FIDS in TLV. Why do flights from Israel to the US (DL 87 to JFK, CO to EWR etc) depart after 11pm from Israel? For example, DL87 departs at 12:35am, arriving at JFK at 6am. Why don't they have a schedule like the one for Europe-US flights (departing from early morning to late afternoon, arriving in the US in the evening at the latest)?


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23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15457 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 23242 times:

Quoting DAL763ER (Thread starter):
Why do flights from Israel to the US (DL 87 to JFK, CO to EWR etc) depart after 11pm from Israel?

Because that is what works out the best for onward connections. Israel isn't the only place like that. Almost all, if not all, flights from the US to Australia and Fiji (and possibly New Zealand as well) leave after 11 pm. The same goes for some of the farther destinations in Asia.



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User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24312 posts, RR: 47
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 22913 times:

Because late evening departures from Israel work out very nicely form connectivity and aircraft utilization.

A late morning flight like traditional Europe-USA flying would never make it to the US hubs in time for their connection banks, while also producing poor aircraft utilization as US-Israel flights dont arrive into Israel into the afternoon leaving a plane there for some 20-odd hours to the next day instead of the current 8 or so hours dependent on the airline.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinechepos From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2000, 6176 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 22781 times:

Cities with a very high O&D traffic from Israel to the US (ie NYC) have daylight flights. CO flight 85 departs TLV at 11:25 am and arrives into EWR at 4:35 pm, LY has a daylight flight into JFK as well (flight 7) which gets into JFK at 3:20 PM - these are in addition to the late night flights. The US Airways flight to help maximize connections also departs TLV late at night and gets into PHL at 5:30 AM, usually it gets in earlier.

Regards,

Chepos



Fly the Flag!!!!
User currently offlinejeffrey1970 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1336 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 21919 times:

Many flights from Anchorage and Fairbanks, Alaska are like that.


God bless through Jesus, Jeff
User currently offlineairplanenut From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 651 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 21150 times:

I've flown that route numerous times, and it's a fantastic flight for sleeping. You depart at a good hour to go to sleep, and 11-12 hours later, it's only a bit earlier than most people get up. I've gotten 8+ hours of sleep each time I've taken that flight, and then had a full day of activity, which really helps with the time change.


Why yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist...
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12322 posts, RR: 35
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 20997 times:

I think there are two main reasons here:

1) Scheduling. Remember that LY cannot operate on Saturdays, so there is 24h that it cannot use, which means that it has to make the very best of the remaining time. Although it could technically leave after sunset on Saturday, that would mean an arrival into the US in the early hours - not very welcome!

2) Temperatures; Israel in Summer can get very hot, sometimes reaching up to 40 degrees, so early hour departures - in cooler temperatures - carry advantages for performance and uplift (although I do appreciate that there are some flights, like CO and one of the LY flights to EWR that depart in daylight).


User currently offlineworldtraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 17760 times:

the reasons above are valid but there are also religious reasons. Many Orthodox Jews cannot travel on the Sabbath but flights that leave after dark are considered acceptable. That doesn't apply to every day of the week but it does affect flight times....DL has had different schedules for Fri/Sat ops to accommodate the Orthodox Jewish population; CO has multiple flights, one of which operates at night all the time so they have not had to make those schedule changes....

but religious reasons are a factor.... but so are the ones listed above.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24061 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 17760 times:

Quoting DAL763ER (Thread starter):
Why don't they have a schedule like the one for Europe-US flights

Flights from Europe to the US leaving that late at night would arrive in the middle of the night local time which wouldn't be attractive. The combination of the flight time and time difference makes it work well from points as far as TLV. Business travellers also prefer overnight flights as they don't waste a day flying.


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2428 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 17502 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
Flights from Europe to the US leaving that late at night would arrive in the middle of the night local time which wouldn't be attractive.

0100h Departures from London to MIA, MCO/TPA, IAH, DFW and maybe ATL could be arriving at 0500h which is the same time when flights from deep Southamerica arrive in MIA and red-eyes flights from the west coast arrive east coast.
It's strange that given the size of the London-NYC market, no airline is flying red-eyes from London to NYC.. 0130 London departure, 0430 NYC arrival.

BTW, flights from other places in the East Mediterraan and Middle East to the U.S. follow the same pattern..



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21085 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 17304 times:

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 9):
It's strange that given the size of the London-NYC market, no airline is flying red-eyes from London to NYC.. 0130 London departure, 0430 NYC arrival.

The flight just isn't quite long enough to make it work out. TLV-NYC is long enough to get a nice night's sleep, while LON-NYC isn't.

Also, there is a big difference between a 11pm departure and a 130am departure, and a big difference between a 430am arrival and a 6am arrival. I suppose an airline could intentionally fly slower on the route to kill off time - it would save fuel, but I'm not sure the extra crew costs would be worth it.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24061 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 16819 times:

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 9):
It's strange that given the size of the London-NYC market, no airline is flying red-eyes from London to NYC.. 0130 London departure, 0430 NYC arrival.

Many airports in Europe have night curfews, often between about 2300 and 0600 or so, which would prevent those types of schedules.

LHR doesn't have a formal curfew but it has a strict quota on night operations and only aircraft meeting certain noise standards can operate at night.

In any case, I doubt such a late departure or early arrival would generate much demand. I expect the current latest departure, AA at 2005 (arriving 2250) is late enough for most people.


User currently offlinejjeff From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 16560 times:
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Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 9):
It's strange that given the size of the London-NYC market, no airline is flying red-eyes from London to NYC.. 0130 London departure, 0430 NYC arrival.
Quoting Mir (Reply 10):
The flight just isn't quite long enough to make it work out. TLV-NYC is long enough to get a nice night's sleep, while LON-NYC isn't.

Just as with Asia. Flights from West Coast to Japan are too short for an evening depature. Flights to Hong Kong, Singapore, etc work fine.


User currently offlineCoachClass From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 16294 times:

Quoting airplanenut (Reply 5):
I've flown that route numerous times, and it's a fantastic flight for sleeping. You depart at a good hour to go to sleep, and 11-12 hours later, it's only a bit earlier than most people get up. I've gotten 8+ hours of sleep each time I've taken that flight, and then had a full day of activity, which really helps with the time change.

I haven't flown from TLV, but have from EZE, and I hate the late night flights. I feel unrested sitting upright in economy all night. And, you end up paying for an extra day at the hotel, since it's a long time between hotel check out and going to the airport. I want to arrive at the airport already rested and feeling clean, not arriving after a day of sweaty sight-seeing.

If I have the option, I would chose the daylight flights arriving at my destination in time to go to bed.


User currently offlineMAN2SIN2BKK From Thailand, joined Feb 2009, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 13249 times:

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 13):
I haven't flown from TLV, but have from EZE, and I hate the late night flights. I feel unrested sitting upright in economy all night. And, you end up paying for an extra day at the hotel, since it's a long time between hotel check out and going to the airport. I want to arrive at the airport already rested and feeling clean, not arriving after a day of sweaty sight-seeing.

If I have the option, I would chose the daylight flights arriving at my destination in time to go to bed.

I agree, I use the lunchtime flights from BKK to Europe arriving at 7pm for that reason, nothing worse than arriving between 5 and 6am after 12 hours in a plane that has left at midnight+


User currently offlinevincewy From Taiwan, joined Oct 2005, 767 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10249 times:

IST-North America flights could also use this window of time (midnight departure - early morning arrival), however this will not work out well with connections to India, Central Asia and Middle East, they tend to leave evening from IST and return in the morning.

User currently offlineusdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 870 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10207 times:

It's hard to say what is best here; I have flown overnight from the Middle East to JFK, and I will admit that while it was hard to get a good night's rest on the plane, passport control and connecting flights were a breeze compared to arriving later in the day. My question is, how do carriers schedule the crew for these flights? Does leaving later in the day give the outbound crew sufficient rest so that they are able to work the flight on the return the following day rather than needing two days' rest due to the longer stage length on the outbound?

User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 1977 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9830 times:
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It is hard to add to an already good disscussion with valid explanations.

Many, many, many places are like this. I live in the UAE, and AUH and DXB is teaming with lots of flights to many points at all hours of the night. India is like this also as well as many schedules worldwide. I flew BA from AUH to LHR leaving at 0230 this year, while on my way to the USA.

It all boils down to scheduling, connections, and nature of the market in question. For example there are flights leaving the US west coast to domestic destinations such as IAH as late as even 0130.

As for me, I hated leaving at 0230 for the States. Next time I will take a daylight flight, EY leaving AUH at 1030.

Even though it may factor into when people select particular flights, the daytime heat I don't believe has much to do with it. Longhaul flights leave during the day and at night from UAE for example (where 40 degrees is nothing).


User currently offlineLufthansa411 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 692 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8206 times:

The factor that I think is most influential: Pax preference (or lack thereof). Although there is high demand US-Israel, a huge, huge chunk of it is heritage trips and the like. Giant groups book direct flights from NYC-TLV and back. These groups are oftentimes not looking for the best connection bank times, or the best service. They are looking for the cheapest price to get to TLV and back.

El Al, DL and CO know this and plan their schedules accordingly. Each of the three offers 1 daytime flight, most likely optimised for business travellers, and then flights in the dead of night that are cheaper to operate. Why gum up runways at JFK or EWR during the evening rush even more, with pax who are not time sensitive? By saving the flights until later or having them depart much earlier, they are more likely to depart on schedule anyway.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 9):
It's strange that given the size of the London-NYC market, no airline is flying red-eyes from London to NYC.. 0130 London departure, 0430 NYC arrival.

In any case, I doubt such a late departure or early arrival would generate much demand. I expect the current latest departure, AA at 2005 (arriving 2250) is late enough for most people.

   Much of the demand at JFK and EWR comes from the suburbs as well. People living in the burbs don't want a flight that late most of the time. If the plane gets in at 22:50, by the time you get off, go through immigration, collect your bags, get your car or get picked up and leave it is probably closer to midnight, and then a 1-2 hour drive without typical traffic puts you home at 1-2 am. Not really efficient or safe for someone living in the burbs.

With flights that arrive late at night, you are counting on people that don't have far to travel to fill the plane, which shrinks the potential market.



Nothing in life is to be feared; it is only to be understood.
User currently offlineairplanenut From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 651 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8163 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 6):
Although it could technically leave after sunset on Saturday, that would mean an arrival into the US in the early hours - not very welcome!

TLV really comes to life on Saturday nights. Last TLV-JFK flight I did was a Saturday night (few hours after sunset), and the place was a complete zoo.

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 13):
If I have the option, I would chose the daylight flights arriving at my destination in time to go to bed.

I suppose it's a matter of preference. I've flown the TLV-EWR flight that leaves a bit before noon, and hated it because I couldn't sleep much of the flight, which made it a really long flight. Plus, when we got in during the middle of the afternoon, I was already shot for the day, making the time change a lot harder. But I suppose I'm pretty good at sleeping in coach.



Why yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist...
User currently offlineAirFrance744 From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8086 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 10):
The flight just isn't quite long enough to make it work out. TLV-NYC is long enough to get a nice night's sleep, while LON-NYC isn't.

Well, then why do airlines have a lot of red-eyes from east coast U.S. to Europe? Other than for connections purposes. I got a good night sleep on BOS-CDG, and so did many others.   

India has almost all of their INTL's leaving and arriving from 23:15 to 2:15.

[Edited 2010-05-31 08:44:30]


Flown over 115,000 miles and I'm only 19!
User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 1977 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7798 times:
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Honestly, I believe it is mostly about aircraft utilization and the size of the market, other factors are secondary in this conversation. CO has a night and a day flight from TLV as indicated. Both flights have sensible schedules for arrival back at EWR.

It is not really about religious factors, airports across Asia have huge banks of flights throughout the night, TLV is not an exception.

As I also indicated, if I want to fly from AUH back to the States there are both redeye and daylight alternatives. For example, for DL, their services are timed to land early am in ATL from DXB, with a late night departure. While AUH has only dailylight flights from AUH to ORD and JFK, cause those timings make more sense with their AUH operation. Even though it may be hot during the day, flight timings are more dependent on how the individual airline manages their network schedule.

I for one prefer the daylight flight to the States from the middle east because I can't sleep on planes and I am ready to go to bed as it is getting dark as I arrive in my destination.


User currently offlinemikebg From Israel, joined Jan 2005, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6974 times:

EL AL's most popular flights from TLV-NYC are those at night, mainly because the flight is long enough (12 hours) and leaves late enough at night (12am or 1am) to be able to sleep at least for a few hours, even in economy. They also have a morning flight most days at 10:40 and an afternoon flight at 16:00. As these two are less heavily loaded, the tickets are a little cheaper than the more popular night flights, as far as I recall.

User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3270 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6556 times:

Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 18):
Why gum up runways at JFK or EWR

Yes and you want need or take up a precious slot if you arrive at those times.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
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