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Routes At BCN  
User currently offlinevin2basketball From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 313 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 3 months 20 hours ago) and read 3454 times:

This is a little analysis I did for my blog, please discuss and tell me what you think:

"Ryanair’s network at Barcelona will be composed of 20 destinations, 10 of which will be domestic. The busiest flights by weekly frequencies are:

Malaga- 14/week

Palma de Mallorca- 14/week

Seville- 14/week

Santiago- 11/week

8 Cities- 7/week

Their busiest frequencies come on routes with the most competition. For example…. Barcelona-Malaga: Ryanair, Iberworld, Spanair, Vueling

Barcelona-Palma de Mallorca: Air Berlin, Air Europa, Ryanair, Spanair, Vueling

Barcelona-Seville: Ryanair, Spanair, Vueling



Because Ryanair is so disproportionately tied to the domestic market, they, along with Air Nostrum face the most challenges because of the advent of high-speed rail intra-Spain. Of the routes that Ryanair has announced, Brussels Charleroi, Rome Ciampino, and Dublin make the most sense. Brussels is a very large market, and their only direct competition is Vueling and Brussels Airlines. The large Belgian tourism market and vice versa in Barcelona can definitely sustain another nonstop. Dublin on the other hand, is sure to be a winner, because they are only up against Aer Lingus’ two daily flights on high capacity A320′s. But because of their monopoly, Aer Lingus is charging fares in the neighborhood of $350 roundtrip, so Ryanair should be able to find a niche. The battle for Rome will also be interesting, with Alitalia and Vueling in competition. Vueling has 33 weekly flights on high-capacity A320s. Alitalia has an additional 28 weekly flights, and the natural benefit of a large Fimuncio hub. Purely from a capacity perspective, the additional 7 weekly routes are overkill. But the advantage of Ciampino is that it is much closer to the city center, and quicker and easier to transit through. Methinks that some of those Spanish tourists might prefer ease of access and choose Ryanair.

Outside of the domestic ones, the proposed routes that give me the most reason to pause are Weeze, and Milan-Orio al Serio. The Weeze market is essentially Düsseldorf, which is a bit of a problem because the Düsseldorf market just isn’t that large. Also, Weeze is not a particularly enticing alternate because there are multiple airports in the area, such as Cologne. The additional issue is that Lufthansa and Air Berlin already operate a crapload of flights per day, with the inherent advantage of a hub in Dusseldorf. Milan-Orio al Serio on the other hand has just too competitive. Almost everyone has service on the route to Milan: Alitalia, EasyJet, Lufthansa, Vueling, and now Ryanair. And as with Weeze, Orio al Serio is too far from the city center to provide a convenient alternative.

In terms of significant exclusions, I was surprised to see that Madrid, a strong Spanish base for Ryanair wasn’t on the list. The “air bridge,” as it has been dubbed is one of the most heavily traveled routes in the world, and I thought it represented a serious revenue opportunity for Ryanair. The other significant one that I thought was missing is London. Ryanair’s largest base is at London Stansted Airport, and outside of Madrid, London is the number one generator of traffic to Barcelona. The competition may be fierce, but the inherent strength of Ryanair in London lead me to conclude that it will be added within the first few months of operations.

EasyJet probably has the weakest sampling of routes of any carrier with a base in Barcelona. They have minimal presence on the domestic routes that form the backbone of air travel, and have a network skewed towards the United Kingdom. Their expansionary ambitions are muted, with no upcoming routes for this summer. The places where I feel that EasyJet has the most potential are:

Rome Fimuncio- 7x weekly

Geneva- 14x weekly

Glasgow- 7x weekly

Machester- 7x weeekly



Iberia and Air Nostrum have a weak/minimal presence at the airport, with a heavy domestic focus. After they drew down their base in Barcelona, the only international connections that continued to exist were low-yield tourism routes and a long distance connection(Moscow). However, the future should provide more opportunity for the airline to connect with its OneWorld partner hubs after the merger with British Airways. Major future routes that could be opened are:

Budapest 5x- weekly

St. Petersburg- 7x weekly

London Gatwick- 7x weekly



Spanair has a more substantial network out of Barcelona, with large international and domestic presences necessary for its placement as a Spanish connecting hub. The solid network includes a small but growing African presence. The airline is expanding its presence with the following new routes:

Barcelona-Dubrovnik- 4x weekly

Barcelona-Naples- 3x weekly

Barcelona-Nice- 3x weekly

Barcelona-Malta- 2x weekly

Additional routes where I think that Spanair can make serious inroads

London-Heathrow- 7x weekly

Tunis- 7x weekly

Tripoli- 5x weekly

Sharm al Sheikh- 3x weekly

Vueling, being the dominant carrier at the airport, has the network most truly reflective of a hubbed carrier. With the implementation of connections through the airport to come later this year, Vueling should only continue to grow its network. The airline has been growing fastest in the Middle East, which is evidenced by the new routes announced for the summer:

Barcelona-Amman- 1x weekly

Barcelona- Edinburgh- 3x weekly

Barcelona- Istanbul- ?

Barcelona- Ljubljana- 2x weekly

Barcelona- Tel Aviv- 3x weekly

And I also believe that the best future of growth will be on Middle East sectors, due to saturation of European routes.

Dubai- 7x weekly

Jeddah- 3x weekly

Ankara- 4x weekly

Bahrain- 2x weekly

Kuwait- 2x weekly



A stated goal of Barcelona Airport and the Catalan government is to attract more international service and position itself as an intercontinental connecting hub. Barcelona already has a diverse and large long haul sector with services from:

Aerolineas Argentinas- Buenos Aires

Aeromexico- Mexico City

Air Canada- Montreal, Toronto

Air Transat- Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver

American Airlines- New York JFK

Continental Airlines- Newark

Delta Airlines- Atlanta, New York JFK

EgyptAir- Cairo, Luxor

El Al- Tel Aviv

Onur Air- Istanbul Ataturk, Izmir

Pakistan International- Chicago O’hare, Islamabad, Karachi, Lahore

Qatar Airways- Doha

Singapore Airlines- Singapore

Turkish Airlines- Istanbul Ataturk

US Airways- Philadelphia

in addition to the markets above for Spanair, and Vueling

In terms of long haul service, there aren’t many untapped markets left that can exist without a bona-fide hub. To me, the most obvious are Johannesburg, Charlotte, Boston, Sao Paulo, and Hong Kong.

Johannesburg may seem like a bit of a stretch, but with well timed flights from South African Airways on one end, and connections from Spanair on the other, this *could* work 4 times a week. While the business ties between Johannesburg and Barcelona are minimal, there is a decent tourist market to play around with.

Charlotte on the other hand, would be entirely about connections. With a US Airways mega hub, Charlotte could flow passengers all across the USA to Barcelona, and vice versa. The business ties are also interesting when you consider that both cities are major banking centers. Perhaps 5x weekly on one of those 767-200ERs that will be freed up by the end of Charlotte-Honolulu.

Boston is definitely a seasonal market, and would be driven by tourists from the Boston area. A 4x weekly in the summer on American, or perhaps Iberia would do the trick. Maybe Lufthansa steps up to the plate and allows connections with JetBlue?

Sao Paulo would be a perfect addition to the network, one that I’m surprised that TAM has not capitalized upon yet. There are serious business ties here, and Star Alliance hubs on both ends of the route should provide ample opportunity. Besides, Barcelona is due for another route to South America. How about 4x weekly on TAM?

Hong Kong is a route that many will question, due to the low O&D numbers. But the same can be said about any other airport in Asia. In fact, Barcelona’s problem has been for a while now that they have sufficient O&D to Asia, just not to any particular airport. Enter Hong Kong. With a strong home carrier (Cathay Pacific), and a great location for connections to East Asia, Hong Kong is the perfect place for Barcelona’s second Asia route. This isn’t going to be just about people going to Hong Kong, but also people going to Taipei, Shanghai, Manila, Beijing, Tokyo, Seoul, and Osaka. We could see a daily flight on Cathay Pacific.

The entry of Ryanair into Barcelona’s flight market is just added competition into one of the most saturated airports intra-Europe. The airline will face strong competition from Spanair, Vueling, Iberia, and EasyJet; but will also provide service to many new destinations. In my opinion, the airport is taking a short sighted view of Ryanair’s entry, and may see dwindling passengers numbers as yields tank for legacy carriers Spanair and Iberia. Because of said problem, I predict that within a year or two Iberia will be down to Madrid, Moscow, and a couple of important domestic routes out of Barcelona. Spanair will also be forced to shrink capacity, probably ending up at around 2/3 of its present size. The presence of Ryanair is a major deterrent to the airports goal of becoming a long haul hub. Since the two major airlines who have a shot at creating a hub, Iberia and Spanair, won’t be able to generate feed due to junk yields on European routes, and therefore cannot support a hub at the airport. However, when looked at purely from a short-haul perspective, Ryanair’s new routes provide additional competition on popular routes, and should be very good money makers. However, Ryanair’s addition is not going to help in any way, the current over-saturation on European routes at the airport."

Vinay Bhaskara- The Airline Guru (lol)

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3167 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 14 hours ago) and read 3333 times:

Quoting vin2basketball (Thread starter):
Outside of the domestic ones, the proposed routes that give me the most reason to pause are Weeze, and Milan-Orio al Serio. The Weeze market is essentially Düsseldorf, which is a bit of a problem because the Düsseldorf market just isn’t that large.

Have you ever realized that Weeze has the largest catchment area of all European airports, when looking at the number of people that can reach the airport within 2 hours by car? The airport attracts passengers from all over the Ruhr area, as well as large parts of the Netherlands.

It is one of the fastest growing bases in the network, from 0 to 9 aircraft in just 3 years, a

It competes with a large number of airports (depending on your point of origin), including DUS, DTM, CGN, FMO, BRE, EIN, MST, AMS, RTM, BRU and CRL. Of course it doesn't compete with all airports for everyone (me, for example, from Utrecht, NL, I typically check flights at AMS, RTM, EIN, NRN and DUS), but it's a price-sensitive alternative for many people.

Weeze is certainly not essentially Dusseldorf. Recent numbers have shown that there are actually more Dutch people using the airport than German people. The airport is mostly aimed at people originating from Germany and the Netherlands, than people going here. The airport is only 1km from the Dutch/German border, by the way.


User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 14 hours ago) and read 3287 times:

Quoting vin2basketball (Thread starter):
The Weeze market is essentially Düsseldorf, which is a bit of a problem because the Düsseldorf market just isn’t that large.

How is Düsseldorf, the most densely and heavily populated region in all of the European continent, not that large?

Quoting vin2basketball (Thread starter):
Charlotte on the other hand, would be entirely about connections.

Forget it. Never happening.

Quoting vin2basketball (Thread starter):

Boston is definitely a seasonal market, and would be driven by tourists from the Boston area. A 4x weekly in the summer on American, or perhaps Iberia would do the trick. Maybe Lufthansa steps up to the plate and allows connections with JetBlue?

Even more laughable an idea that Charlotte - never happening.

Barcelona's next U.S. destination will be Miami, and Iberia has gone as far as to confirm such pending pilot talks.

http://www.cincodias.com/articulo/em...merica/20100408cdscdiemp_1/cdsemp/

Miami and maybe Chicago is all Barcelona can really additionally support in the U.S. Not really sure why you forgot these two. Miami is Barcelona's second largest U.S. O&D market and Chicago is the third largest. Philadelphia and Atlanta fill in the connecting demand, and you have a strong compliment of services for a mid-size market that could never support a thin O&D route like Boston or a niche hub route like Charlotte.

Though depending on how UA+CO develop its network, IAD-BCN could be another potential route.

[Edited 2010-06-01 01:04:28]


a.
User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3167 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 14 hours ago) and read 3256 times:

Quoting vin2basketball (Thread starter):
m face the most challenges because of the advent of high-speed rail intra-Spain
Quoting vin2basketball (Thread starter):
EasyJet probably has the weakest sampling of routes of any carrier with a base in Barcelona. They have minimal presence on the domestic routes that form the backbone of air travel

Looks a bit contradicting, doesn't it? Besides that, easyJet doesn't have a base at BCN, it's just a destination flown from all other bases. I still wouldn't be surprised if easyJet announces a base shortly, though.

Quoting vin2basketball (Thread starter):
Spanair (...)
London-Heathrow- 7x weekly

Financial suicide for the airline. They don't have slots, and they don't have the money to buy it. And even if they find the money, how can they compete with 7x DAILY BA/IB flights? Price-sensitive customers and connecting passengers don't generate the yields that are required to offset the LHR slot costs.

Quoting vin2basketball (Thread starter):
Johannesburg may seem like a bit of a stretch, but with well timed flights from South African Airways on one end, and connections from Spanair on the other, this *could* work 4 times a week. While the business ties between Johannesburg and Barcelona are minimal, there is a decent tourist market to play around with.

The price-sensitive tourist market has no problem to connect at MAD. Flying such a sector non-stop is extremely expensive.

Quoting vin2basketball (Thread starter):
With a strong home carrier (Cathay Pacific), and a great location for connections to East Asia, Hong Kong is the perfect place for Barcelona’s second Asia route.

Maybe when the economy attracts again, we might see one or two more routes to the Middle East or Asia. But so far, even SQ is not a direct flight to BCN (it's a tag-on from MXP), so apparantly the BCN market can't fill the 777 completely. EK and CX (due to the OneWorld connection) might be favorite.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 13 hours ago) and read 3226 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 2):
Philadelphia and Atlanta fill in the connecting demand, and you have a strong compliment of services for a mid-size market that could never support a thin O&D route like Boston or a niche hub route like Charlotte.

What about the Air Canada service to YYZ and YUL (three times a week each) due to start later this week? Time will tell if it works out. To me, BOS would be comparable.

Quoting joost (Reply 3):
EK and CX (due to the OneWorld connection) might be favorite.

What oneworld connection? IB doesn't fly any longer from BCN, except to MAD. At this point IB offers to connection opportunities whatsoever in BCN.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3167 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 13 hours ago) and read 3213 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 4):
What oneworld connection? IB doesn't fly any longer from BCN, except to MAD. At this point IB offers to connection opportunities whatsoever in BCN.

A sizeable customer (frequent flyer) base could help a bit, but it offers less to OneWorld carriers than it did in the past.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 13 hours ago) and read 3207 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 5):
A sizeable customer (frequent flyer) base could help a bit,

Indeed, you're right. Although the sizable frequent flyer base (which exists) may fast dissolve, for lack of flights.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offline123 From Bolivia, joined Nov 2003, 745 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 8 hours ago) and read 2940 times:

I heard of plans of 5L wanting to start VVI-BCN-VVI flights, alghough I am not sure it will be a tag-on to the current MAD ops.

User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3167 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 8 hours ago) and read 2890 times:

I actually expect FR to open a bunch of extra new routes for the 2011 summer schedule, like EIN, MST, NYO, HHN, FMM, BLL, BTS, etc.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 4):
What about the Air Canada service to YYZ and YUL (three times a week each) due to start later this week? Time will tell if it works out. To me, BOS would be comparable.

With respect to connections, YYZ and YUL offer flights to virtually every Canadian airport. Boston on the other hand, doesn't really have an advantage over JFK, PHL and ATL, as it's more of an O&D airport. I'd think IAD or ORD on UA are more likely than BOS.


User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 8 hours ago) and read 2874 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 4):

What about the Air Canada service to YYZ and YUL (three times a week each) due to start later this week? Time will tell if it works out. To me, BOS would be comparable.

No comparison.

First of all, those are both hubs for Air Canada.

More importantly, Canadians travel abroad, and to Europe especially, much more than Americans, which explains why cities as small as Calgary have fairly extensive trans-Atlantic networks.

The YUL/YYZ-BCN local markets are much larger than BOS-BCN as well.



a.
User currently offlineLIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 8 hours ago) and read 2832 times:

Quoting vin2basketball (Thread starter):
Aerolineas Argentinas- Buenos Aires

Aeromexico- Mexico City

Air Canada- Montreal, Toronto

Air Transat- Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver

American Airlines- New York JFK

Continental Airlines- Newark

Delta Airlines- Atlanta, New York JFK

EgyptAir- Cairo, Luxor

El Al- Tel Aviv

Onur Air- Istanbul Ataturk, Izmir

Pakistan International- Chicago O’hare, Islamabad, Karachi, Lahore

Qatar Airways- Doha

Singapore Airlines- Singapore

Turkish Airlines- Istanbul Ataturk

US Airways- Philadelphia

And Avianca to Bogotà.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 6 hours ago) and read 2661 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 8):
With respect to connections, YYZ and YUL offer flights to virtually every Canadian airport.
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 9):
First of all, those are both hubs for Air Canada.

YYZ does have connections to everywhere in Canada, but that's not quite true for YUL, whose connections to western Canada are not so impressive. Not very different from the links from BOS to the western USA.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 9):
More importantly, Canadians travel abroad, and to Europe especially, much more than Americans

But there are about ten times more Americans than Canadians...



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User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1989 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 5 hours ago) and read 2597 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 2):
Even more laughable an idea that Charlotte - never happening.

That's funny, I could've sworn at one point you told me that BOS-BCN COULD work, possibly with the right plane, but maybe I'm thinking of somewhere (or someone) else? Given how BOS-MAD struggles in the winter (though it sounds like it has been doing better lately) I don't see BOS-BCN happening.

Quoting vin2basketball (Thread starter):
Maybe Lufthansa steps up to the plate and allows connections with JetBlue?

How is that relevant to BCN? LH isn't using BOS or JFK for that kind of thing. The only thing B6 would change is if it joined OneWorld it could strengthen BOS-MAD but it wouldn't be enough to make BOS-BCN feasible.



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User currently offlinerealsim From Spain, joined Apr 2010, 645 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 4 hours ago) and read 2535 times:

Quoting vin2basketball (Thread starter):
This is a little analysis I did for my blog, please discuss and tell me what you think:

If you are able to read Spanish, just yesterday I wrote in a Spanish forum a quite long analysis about the future of BCN as a potential hub, so I could give you the link.

In a few words, with the entry of FR, the saturation at BCN will leed to an inevitable consolidation. BCN can't sustain a hub for Vueling, Spanair and Ryanair, plus the operations of Air Europa, Easyjet and others. My bet is that Vueling and Spanair will eventually merge, and that Iberia will continue to be the main shareholder of the new company. Why? Because Spanair is in a weaker financial position than Vueling, and because Iberia is never going to give BCN to their competitors (mainly Star Alliance). Besides, I don't see LH investing in JK as they would face a tough competition and they can feed their German hubs with their own metal if they want.

If BCN wants to have some kind of a hub in their airport, IB will be their best bet without any doubt. It's true that IB left BCN some years ago and transferred all their ops except MAD to Clickair (later Vueling), but now the situation is different. Vueling has just announced that they will allow connections at BCN, becoming more like a network carrier. When IB left, no Latin American carrier flew non-stop to BCN, and now you have AM, AV, AR as well as 4 US legacies. Besides, the Latin American carriers are heading towards other alliances, and Iberia will fight for these passengers for sure. This is why they are evaluating starting long haul operations from BCN to MIA, GRU and EZE, and I'm sure that if they are successful and Vueling merges with Spanair, more flights will follow (I pressume that BOG and MEX would be the next considered, and maybe a Caribbean island such as HAV or SDQ).

About other possible long haul destinations from BCN, if IB is not able to sustain a single flight to Asia from their main hub (MAD), it is clear that they won't be able from BCN, so it will all depend on foreing carriers. The only real possibility that I could see right now is EK if MAD works well for them.

In conclusion, I think that IB could start building a small TATL hub from BCN in the near future, relying on the feed from their subsidiary Vueling. Of course, FR will hurt them, but if Vueling and Spanair end up together, they will be able to compete in a better position, and their hub in BCN could see some development that right now would be unsustainable.

[Edited 2010-06-01 10:28:46]

User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4918 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 4 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

Quoting vin2basketball (Thread starter):
And as with Weeze, Orio al Serio is too far from the city center to provide a convenient alternative

While I think travel times are longer, Orio al Serio/Bergamo is about the same distance from Milan City Centre as Malpensa

Quoting vin2basketball (Thread starter):
However, the future should provide more opportunity for the airline to connect with its OneWorld partner hubs after the merger with British Airways. Major future routes that could be opened are:

Budapest 5x- weekly

St. Petersburg- 7x weekly

London Gatwick- 7x weekly
Quoting vin2basketball (Thread starter):
Because of said problem, I predict that within a year or two Iberia will be down to Madrid, Moscow, and a couple of important domestic routes out of Barcelona
Quoting vin2basketball (Thread starter):
Since the two major airlines who have a shot at creating a hub, Iberia

Vueling, whom IB own part off, already fly BCN-BUD/St Petersburg. While if a oneworld airline was to fly BCN-BUD it would be Malev, since it would be them who would get most of the benefit. Basically Iberia don't care too much about Barcelona beyond providing feed to it's Madrid hub. All other mainline flights have been transferred to Vueling. They have made some noises about starting some long haul flights, but it's questionable whether that is just to stop rivals from doing so (i.e. if passengers won't connect via MAD, better having them fly non-stop with you, rather than non-stop on a rival). As for Air Nostrum (who of course use the IB brand) they are just filling the gaps at BCN, and I think are quite independent in deciding what routes to fly



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User currently offlineTalaier From Spain, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 4 hours ago) and read 2504 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 11):
YYZ does have connections to everywhere in Canada, but that's not quite true for YUL, whose connections to western Canada are not so impressive. Not very different from the links from BOS to the western USA.

I belive Air Canada's seasonal flights base themselves to a large extent on the strong demand for cruises around the Mediterranean that originate and/or terminate in Barcelona. The same goes for most US flights, especially in winter. The only exceptions would be NY and MIA, which are hugley O&D. Other than that, these flights have high yields thanks to the booming cruising industry.


User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 1 hour ago) and read 2356 times:

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 12):

That's funny, I could've sworn at one point you told me that BOS-BCN COULD work, possibly with the right plane, but maybe I'm thinking of somewhere (or someone) else?

BOS-BRU is what you might be thinking of, a large unconnected non-stop local market. Boston-Barcelona doesn't stand a chance.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 11):
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 9):
More importantly, Canadians travel abroad, and to Europe especially, much more than Americans

But there are about ten times more Americans than Canadians...

Only 25% of Americans have passports and less than 10% travel to Europe. The number of Canadians who travel to Europe is not as far separated from the number of Americans who travel to Europe.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 11):

YYZ does have connections to everywhere in Canada, but that's not quite true for YUL, whose connections to western Canada are not so impressive. Not very different from the links from BOS to the western USA.

But Montreal also has a much larger local market to Barcelona and, combined with Toronto, takes around 80% of Canada's trans-Atlantic capacity so it still acts as a major Europe hub for Canada. Boston does not play that role for the U.S. anymore.

Quoting Talaier (Reply 15):

I belive Air Canada's seasonal flights base themselves to a large extent on the strong demand for cruises around the Mediterranean that originate and/or terminate in Barcelona. The same goes for most US flights, especially in winter. The only exceptions would be NY and MIA, which are hugley O&D. Other than that, these flights have high yields thanks to the booming cruising industry.

The flights are not high yield, hence Air Canada is flying them with an all-economy configured plane, with the large domestic F seats in front be up sold for a flat rate of $249 each way.

However, because of cruise traffic, the flights are pretty much guaranteed to turn a profit even at low yields due to cruise ship operators providing contractual guarantees.



a.
User currently offlineTalaier From Spain, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 1 hour ago) and read 2307 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 16):
The flights are not high yield, hence Air Canada is flying them with an all-economy configured plane, with the large domestic F seats in front be up sold for a flat rate of $249 each way.

However, because of cruise traffic, the flights are pretty much guaranteed to turn a profit even at low yields due to cruise ship operators providing contractual guarantees.

Sorry, mistiped should've read high occupations. I mixed terms around.

But I agree, AC's flight into BCN are pretty much full of cruise holiday makers.


User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1989 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2116 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 16):

BOS-BRU is what you might be thinking of, a large unconnected non-stop local market. Boston-Barcelona doesn't stand a chance.

I don't think so, I remember it being a city that surprised me. I've been saying that someone should start BOS-BRU as long as I've been on a.net. And I'm pretty sure the reason for my surprise was because I knew how BOS-MAD had been doing. Evidently, I have either the wrong person or the wrong airport.



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User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7147 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2089 times:

Quoting 123 (Reply 7):
I heard of plans of 5L wanting to start VVI-BCN-VVI flights, alghough I am not sure it will be a tag-on to the current MAD ops.

Well 5L does have advertisements going up all over the Barcelona Metro stations talking about flights to Santa Cruz and be able to connect to other cities including MIA.

I also think MIA will be the next long haul flight out of BCN. IB or AA has to start it in a year or two. Probably IB.



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User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8803 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1970 times:
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Quoting flymia (Reply 19):
I also think MIA will be the next long haul flight out of BCN. IB or AA has to start it in a year or two. Probably IB.

I agree, hopefully AA will operate both MIA-BCN and MIA-MAN by next year.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1952 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 16):
But Montreal also has a much larger local market to Barcelona

May I ask how do you know this? I'm not necessarily challenging your assertion. I just would like to know your sources.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 16):
The number of Canadians who travel to Europe is not as far separated from the number of Americans who travel to Europe.

Well, in terms of seat count the TATL traffic between the USA and Europe is vastly larger than the traffic between Canada and Europe. There is just no comparison. Is this all due to "forriners"?



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offline123 From Bolivia, joined Nov 2003, 745 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1855 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 19):
Well 5L does have advertisements going up all over the Barcelona Metro stations talking about flights to Santa Cruz and be able to connect to other cities including MIA.

Wow! And then they say there is not enough demand on the Spain/Bolivia routes?

Wonder how many fly from Spain via Bolivia to Miami... must be kind of bad in geography to take that flight!


User currently offlineTalaier From Spain, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1846 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 20):
I agree, hopefully AA will operate both MIA-BCN and MIA-MAN by next year.

My bet is on IB flying to MIA, and AA taking over some of IB's MAD flights. But with the ATI anything is possible.

Quoting 123 (Reply 22):
Wow! And then they say there is not enough demand on the Spain/Bolivia routes?

Wonder how many fly from Spain via Bolivia to Miami... must be kind of bad in geography to take that flight!

There is demand sure, but it's low yiled and extremely seasonal due to the huge VFR market. The hostile environment to foreign investment in Bolivia does not help to keep business traffic up either.


User currently offlinerealsim From Spain, joined Apr 2010, 645 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1664 times:

Quoting Talaier (Reply 23):
My bet is on IB flying to MIA, and AA taking over some of IB's MAD flights. But with the ATI anything is possible.

I also think that. IB flying BCN-MIA and AA flying IAD-MAD and maybe BOS-MAD. IB BCN-MIA could happen in less than a year if IB reaches an agreement with their pilots and local authorities in BCN.

Quoting flymia (Reply 19):
Well 5L does have advertisements going up all over the Barcelona Metro stations talking about flights to Santa Cruz and be able to connect to other cities including MIA.

  

This year, there are 50.000 Bolivians in Madrid in a regular situation, and almost 55.000 in Cataluña, so I think that 5L could succeed if they launch a flight to BCN during the summer.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7147 posts, RR: 9
Reply 25, posted (4 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1628 times:

Quoting Talaier (Reply 23):
There is demand sure, but it's low yiled and extremely seasonal due to the huge VFR market

The adds in the metro do focus on being able to carry extra luggage for free. So I can see that. Wonder if they will start anything. Guess they want to get the brand out first in the area.

BCN is a flying city. When I spent my four months there besides for MAD and Valencia flying was always the easiest and most of the time cheapest way. I even flew to MAD due to the high prices of the bullet train on the weekends. It will be interesting to see Vuelings response to Ryanair.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
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