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Cathay Poised To Place Order For Widebodies  
User currently offlinecca From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2002, 846 posts, RR: 14
Posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 38714 times:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...to-place-order-for-widebodies.html

Quote:
Cathay Pacific Airways will shatter Airbus's A380 sales aspirations as it prepares for a widebody buying spree, with deals for long-range twinjets but no near-term plans to order the superjumbo.

The Hong Kong airline, which is a major Boeing 747 operator, has long been a target for Airbus's A380 salesmen. However, according to industry sources a request for proposals issued by Cathay in November centred on Airbus A330/A350s and Boeing 777/787s.

The airline is expected to finalise these orders this year, with one source suggesting that a decision will be made in June, ahead of the northern summer holidays.




[Edited 2010-06-01 16:10:28 by srbmod]


C152 G115 TB10 CAP10 SR-22 Be76 PA-34 NDN-1T C500 A330-300 A340-300 -600 B747-200F -200SF -400 -400F -400BCF -400ERF -8F
185 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1344 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 38679 times:

I don't think anyone expect CX to order VLA's this time around? They were always consistent in saying they would wait for the A380-900.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31417 posts, RR: 85
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 38497 times:
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Hmm... So we're looking at initial replacement of A340-300s, 777-200s and 777-300s?

A350-900 or 787-9 would handle the A340-300 and 777-200 replacement and the A350-1000 or 777-300ER could cover the 777-300.

I have to believe Boeing has the advantage on delivery positions and with CX already a large (and growing) 77W operator, adding more leverages everything they already have in place to support them. So if I had to put down money, I'd put a bit more down on a Boeing win.

And before keesje weighs in with his "787-9 has no legs out of hot Asian airports" claim, Daniel Tsang in a guest editorial on another site claimed that the 8150nm design range mentioned by Boeing at their Q1 Investor's Conference does not include planned weight reduction programs and that later 787-9s could clear the original 8500nm design range target.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 7000 posts, RR: 63
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 38179 times:

I just flew on CX and their in-flight mag lauded the 777-300ER. That's their preferred long-haul widebody for the immediate future.

I see neither an A380 order nor a 747-8i order any time soon.

But the A330 I flew on (B-HLC) was fifteen years old and, although they continue to take delivery of newer and much more capable A330s, this aging fleet must be up for replacement. More A330s? A350s? 787s? This one could really go either way.

Or both...   


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31417 posts, RR: 85
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 38078 times:
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Quoting PM (Reply 3):
But the A330 I flew on (B-HLC) was fifteen years old and, although they continue to take delivery of newer and much more capable A330s, this aging fleet must be up for replacement.

Ah, so they do have older model A330-300s that need replacing? 787-9s would work well there, I would expect, offering the same capacity to the A330-300 while being lighter than the A350-900 which might help the economics on the ≤10 hour missions Zeke noted they fly (he noted the lighter A333 burns 4t less fuel than the 772 on a 3800-4000nm mission).


User currently offlinecosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 37791 times:

I can see the 787-9 work nicely for CX. Now that the 787 has some solid numbers from tests to show, and given CX's risk adverse habits, should give Boeing a good chance.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Daniel Tsang in a guest editorial on another site claimed that the 8150nm design range mentioned by Boeing at their Q1 Investor's Conference does not include planned weight reduction programs and that later 787-9s could clear the original 8500nm design range target.

The 787-9 is indeed looking more and more attractive.

If Boeing can throw in a few 748i at you name the price as a sign-up bonus, it will be even more sweet.  


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 37674 times:

Quoting cca (Thread starter):
Airbus remains bullish about the role that Cathay's main base will play in the ultra-large aircraft sector, forecasting that Hong Kong will be the largest hub for such aircraft over the next 20 years.

If CX doesn't order the A380 then when does Airbus expect CX to order them and "become the largest hub for such aircraft"? Kind of flies in the face (no pun intended) of what the situation is.

Kind of sux though for both the B748I and A380 program..... 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 7000 posts, RR: 63
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 37561 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Ah, so they do have older model A330-300s that need replacing?

Cathay have some of the oldest A330s in service. Ten of their fleet (of 32) first flew in or before 1995.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
787-9s would work well there

Sure would.   


User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 37129 times:

Looking at their large A333 fleet and the large cargo volume the 789 could indeed by te right fit for CX Asian operations.

Regarding Transpacific and European routes, the importance of cargo for CX and CX's hub strategy, I doubt the 789 will be the perfect match in its current form. The smaller then foreseen wings and max 72klbs engines won't do miracles regarding payload range. Twins on those flights are mostly payload restricted anyway.

The CX A380, the story continues. Reminds me of BA executives for years saying they don't see a need for the A380 right now and the 748i seems like an excellent machine. Negotiation tactics in a multi billion cat and mouse play..

CX operates VLA for decades for reason, noise/slot restricted LHR is a key market & they sit on a booming market. Every competitor is introducing A380 & passengers love the comfort. Downsizing to a 350 seater twin? Sure why not..

  

[Edited 2010-06-01 09:01:13]

User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2607 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 36820 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 3):
This one could really go either way.

Or both...   

That wouldn't surprise me at all

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):
Kind of sux though for both the B748I and A380 program..

Definitely does - I think both A&B had high hopes on CX ordering their VLA offering.


User currently offlinecosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 36731 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 8):

CX operates VLA for decades for reason

I agree and I guess CX will order some VLA soon, if not with this wide body order, as their flagship even though the bulk of their fleet will be 77W size.

Boeing learned a hard lesson over the loss of the BA deal and I would imagine B will do anything to block a A388 win at CX.

With CX already having 748F on order, they can swap some of the early slots to 748i. CX is also in the process of upgrading their their 744 so such new seating designs, with some enhancements resulting from in service feedback, will fit nicely into the 748i.


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12594 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 36735 times:

Hasn't Tony Tyler said openly that he likes the A350. While I certainly wouldn't rule out the 787, I think it would be a massive disappointment for Airbus if the A350 were not selected. I see the A350-900 replacing early A330s and the -10 replacing the 773 (short range model), which will be coming up for 20 years old by the time CX takes delivery of them.

It's good to see CX back in the market. The lack of a 380 order doesn't surprise me (and not just because of the article); it'll happen, just not yet.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31417 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 36597 times:
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Quoting keesje (Reply 8):
I doubt the 789 will be the perfect match in its current form. The smaller then foreseen wings and max 72klbs engines won't do miracles regarding payload range.

If Daniel Tsang is correct, the 787-9 could offer 500nm-plus more design range than the A350-900 so I guess miracles can happen.  

With both planes planned to enter the market roughly simultaneously, we'll at least know how they stack up against each other at the same time and see where each's strengths and weaknesses lie.

[Edited 2010-06-01 10:07:18]

User currently onlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1344 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 36398 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):
If CX doesn't order the A380 then when does Airbus expect CX to order them and "become the largest hub for such aircraft"?

I believe CX has stated openly that they do not want the A380 - 800, they want the A380 - 900. If Airbus launch it, I expect them to be first in the queue.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31417 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 36277 times:
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Quoting kaitak (Reply 11):
I see the A350-900 replacing early A330s and the -10 replacing the 773 (short range model), which will be coming up for 20 years old by the time CX takes delivery of them.

  

The A350-900 would also work as an A340-300 and 777-200 replacement.

I don't know what kind of timeframe CX is looking at for replacement, which is why I thought Boeing might have the edge if they desire planes sooner - they could certainly get them 777-300ERs years before Airbus could deliver an A350-1000 and assuming CX wants the 787-9, even with 787 delivery slots sold out until around 2015, I'm inclined to think Airbus might not be able to get them A350-900s before then with the current orderbook for the entire family.

But if CX is looking for something closer to 2020, then the A350 family should certainly be available by then.

[Edited 2010-06-01 10:15:41]

User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 35927 times:

Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 13):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):
If CX doesn't order the A380 then when does Airbus expect CX to order them and "become the largest hub for such aircraft"?

I believe CX has stated openly that they do not want the A380 - 800, they want the A380 - 900. If Airbus launch it, I expect them to be first in the queue.

EK would probably be first in line. I don't see too many routes where CX could send an A389 (SFO being one)...but its possible I guess. Maybe others could chime in here.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 11):
Hasn't Tony Tyler said openly that he likes the A350. While I certainly wouldn't rule out the 787, I think it would be a massive disappointment for Airbus if the A350 were not selected. I see the A350-900 replacing early A330s and the -10 replacing the 773 (short range model), which will be coming up for 20 years old by the time CX takes delivery of them.

Tyler also stated he likes the B787 and likes the A350 "if it flies to specifications on paper"...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 35823 times:

I'm browsing at phone, but didn't Tyler say at some point he thought the Dreamliner was a bit small for their requirements?

User currently onlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1344 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 35732 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 15):
I don't see too many routes where CX could send an A389

I admit to being surprised that CX are looking for a larger a/c than the A388, but that is, apparently, what they have said.


User currently offlinecloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 35687 times:

More A333s to replace A333s, a ton of mixed model A350s to replace A343s/B772s/B773s and launch of B777 Advanced to replace B744s, I say.


A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31417 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 35555 times:
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Quoting keesje (Reply 16):
I'm browsing at phone, but didn't Tyler say at some point he thought the Dreamliner was a bit small for their requirements?

Yes, in 2009 in an email to WaggenerEdstrom employee he did note that: "As far as the B787 goes, it will be a very good aircraft but possibly a bit small for CX. It’s really a replacement (greatly improved) for the B767, which we don’t have. Another very interesting aircraft for us will be the A350, which uses similar technology but is larger."

He has stated the 787-10 would be of interest to them and a few CX pilots have put forward the opinion that the 787 is too small for CX's business plan, but they haven't shared details of that plan or why it would not be large enough. Most seem to think that CX's A330-300 and A340-300 fleet favors the A350 family from a pilot training side, but the 777 crews would need to be trained to fly the A350 so what is the difference if the Airbus crews need to be trained on the 787? Yes, I understand the training period for an A330/A340 pilot to an A350 is significantly shorter, so the overall training costs would be lower since the Airbus crews would spend less time learning the A350 than the Boeing crews would be learning the 787, but in such a large, multi-facted deal...


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8657 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 35448 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):
If CX doesn't order the A380 then when does Airbus expect CX to order them and "become the largest hub for such aircraft"? Kind of flies in the face (no pun intended) of what the situation is.

Why? HKG could be the largest VLA hub and CX not own a VLA aircraft. If every VLA operator choses to operate a VLA aircraft on one or more daily frequencies to HKG then HKG could be the largest such hub. In reality DXB will always be the first by shear volume if EK does receive all that it orders but HKG could be a close second.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
If Daniel Tsang is correct, the 787-9 could offer 500nm-plus more design range than the A350-900 so I guess miracles can happen.

The big question being, does CX need the range or the lift? There really aren't that many cities that you can't serve from HKG with a 789. Basically South/Central America and SE US.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 35289 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 8):
Every competitor is introducing A380 & passengers love the comfort.

For most passengers, competitive fares are more important than any differences in "comfort" which in my opinion are overrated. Many passengers also prefer smaller aircraft which permit faster boarding/deplaning, faster inflight service, and less risk of windup at the end of the line behind 500+ other passengers at customs/immigration..


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8500 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 35084 times:
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[quote=Stitch,reply=2]
Hmm... So we're looking at initial replacement of A340-300s, 777-200s and 777-300s?

A350-900 or 787-9 would handle the A340-300 and 777-200 replacement and the A350-1000 or 777-300ER could cover the 777-300.[/quot

This gives Cathay a chance to cleanup its fleet by eliminating the A340 and early 777. A350's or 787-9 for medium haul Asian routes ? They may work for Australian and New Zealand flights but using planes for 4 hour flights that are designed for 12 hour flights wouldn't be wise. Until a plane better then an A330 comes along for Asian regional routes Cathay should buy more A333's. The 777-300ER is clearly the best long haul plane right now for CX until 2020. A350 will do wonders, when there time comes but it would be a shame if they were for only HKG to NRT or Peking; LHR, LAX and JFK are more the A350's market.


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12961 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 35021 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 3):
I just flew on CX and their in-flight mag lauded the 777-300ER. That's their preferred long-haul widebody for the immediate future.

I see neither an A380 order nor a 747-8i order any time soon.

Which might indicate they may be interested in the 777-NG?

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
Yes, in 2009 in an email to WaggenerEdstrom employee he did note that: "As far as the B787 goes, it will be a very good aircraft but possibly a bit small for CX. It’s really a replacement (greatly improved) for the B767, which we don’t have. Another very interesting aircraft for us will be the A350, which uses similar technology but is larger."

He has stated the 787-10 would be of interest to them...

Yeah, what a shame there is no choice of engines on them...         

Sorry for working your side of the street, keesje...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31417 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 34912 times:
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Quoting jfk777 (Reply 22):
A350's or 787-9 for medium haul Asian routes ? They may work for Australian and New Zealand flights but using planes for 4 hour flights that are designed for 12 hour flights wouldn't be wise. Until a plane better then an A330 comes along for Asian regional routes Cathay should buy more A333's.

The 787-9 might not be as heavy or not much heavier empty than an A330-300 and CX could always paper de-rate the MTOW to match the A333's 233t (or whatever MTOW CX currently rates their A333s at). So the 787-9 could work just as well as an A330-300 on those short hops around Asia, but also give CX the option of employing them on longer missions, as well.


25 hawkercamm : By 2020 CX will have the following frames >20years old 11 * A340-300 12 * A330-300 5 * B777-200 7 * B777-300 34 frames!!! By 2025 CX will have the
26 Stitch : The problem with the A350-800 is it's cargo hold volume limited - the hold is smaller than the A333, A343 and 772 so an A358 is likely to run out of
27 Post contains images keesje : AKL and SYD are more like 8-11 hrs. Cathay has mostly relatively low density aircraft, need space & cargo is important. Maybe a mix of 787-9 and
28 Post contains images Owleye : How likely is it that they go for the 748 as replacement for the 744? Doesn't the 748 come in a little too late??
29 cloudyapple : No doubt if A350s were purchased they will be found all over asia. You find B77W all over asia now, in between long trips. LHR LAX and JFK are more A
30 Stitch : Because you want to carry more than just passenger bags in your cargo hold? SQ seems to feel they can make a fleet of 20 787-9s and 20 A350-900s work
31 FCKC : What is the CX feeling about the new A380-800R (More range) ? Do we know that ?
32 Post contains images frigatebird : To be honest, SQ ordered the 787-9 before they ordered the A350-900m but your point is still valid. Agreed, 20 787-9's and 20 A350-900's, that sounds
33 hawkercamm : Possible, I don't have an in depth knowledge of CX operations but I would bet they are TOW restricted at quite a few strips. TOW restricted meaning t
34 hawkercamm : CX wish to not order planes that have not flown may have to change considering the B787 and A350 unprecedented order backlogs
35 trex8 : so why were they an early 772 customer?
36 Jacobin777 : I thought it was based on the fact a carrier such as CX having it in the fleet...I guess it could be based on the number of carriers flying it to HKG
37 behramjee : If I was in charge of CX's fleet replacement for wide bodies, I would implement the following changes: 1. B 773As to be replaced by B 773ERs and used
38 Post contains images Stitch : It will lift a greater payload weight, true. But in terms of passenger and cargo capacity, the A350-800 comes up short to the 787-9. Based on my anal
39 MarcoPoloWorld : Right on. I've had pretty much the same thoughts there; a four-class A380 serving the trunk routes. LHR is slot-restricted, as we all know, while fly
40 YULWinterSkies : Yes they had at some point (i don't think there was anything official though), however, if they do need the -900 and that it is not launched, why wou
41 lutfi : Cathay doesn't care about being a major worldwide airline, they care about being a safe & profitable airline. So the mystery of CX not yet orderin
42 Stitch : If I am not mistaken, was CX not recently operating HKG-LHR with an A340-300 frequency, which they then bumped up to a 77W? If true, "lack" of traffic
43 Post contains images Centre : Shouldn't the 787-9 be directly compared with the A358? Again closer to the range of the direct competitor, the A358. Add to it that the A358 is a sh
44 behramjee : CX cannot wait to order the A 389 (due to its late planned delivery schedule) and nor should do they order it period! The aircraft on board capacity
45 lutfi : I would see CX keeping the B773A until 2023 at least. On regional routes, a B773ER is less efficient (heavier) and much more expensive, and unlikely t
46 zeke : The lightweight CX (MTOW/MLW) early 333s are in the process of being trasferred to KA, and the heavywight KA (MTOW/MLW) 333 are being transferred to
47 Post contains images frigatebird : Yeah, certainly looks like it. I'm not sure if this situation has happened in aviation before, if you order a plane now you need to wait 5-8 years be
48 FCKC : Perhaps the order will be announce at the Farnborough air show next month. Hope i will not be fired , but i do not see 787s into this order , referrin
49 Stitch : If you want to replace an A330-200, the A350-800 matches up well in capacity. The fuselage lengths look to be identical, and the slightly wider fusel
50 Jacobin777 : Most people on A.net also know CX has one of the larger A330 fleets in the world as well..
51 cosmofly : I wonder if Boeing will be willing to increase the 787-9 just a bit to make it a direct competitor of the A358-900 and to entertain CX. Adding 1.5 me
52 BoeEngr : I don't believe so. The fuselage length is already set and well into design. It would be an impact to the program to change it at this point.
53 JAAlbert : CX does not currently fly to SAN (San Diego) Now that is a flight I'd love to see!
54 Stitch : He said "possibly too small" - not exactly a damning condemnation. He also said the 787 "will be a very good aircraft".
55 francoflier : Nor Cape Town for that matter. That is true. The only issue is that there is a limit to how many daily frequencies you can run on a long haul destina
56 kaitak : Yes, but don't forget that CX wants to choose an aircraft that will be able to support its ongoing growth; as much as I admire the 787, if it seems "
57 jfk777 : Cathay needs a plane bigger then the 744 but not as big as the A380, so why not lease some 748 for 10 years until teh A350-900/1000 & 777NG have
58 Stitch : Fair points, kaitak, but with Airbus noting the distances between Door 1 and Door 2 of the A350-900 and 787-9 are similar, then should CX wish to keep
59 behramjee : A B 748 in CX's 3 class configuration would most likely only seat 410 pax max where as a 4 class (with a premium economy cabin included) A 380 would
60 Stitch : One advantage to CX of choosing the 747-8 is that they can become 747-8BCFs down the road, so they would have a very long service life with CX.
61 behramjee : That is 100% true and I knew that but I didnt mention it because that is not what I feel would and should be the ultimate choice for CX in deciding th
62 CFBFrame : You are!! This is a A350-900 win. Just don't see the 787-9 working in the CX fleet. Despite the numbers Stitch has shown, I think the -9 is seen inte
63 Stitch : I would not be surprised at all if Boeing offered CX a nice deal on 747-8s at the time they ordered the 747-8F, but the company ordered 7 777-300ERs,
64 Stitch : Fair enough. So then 20 77Ws (to replace the 773s and the 744s) and 40 A350-900s (to replace the A343s, the 772s and the oldest A333s)?
65 Post contains links kaitak : I guess the big imponderable here is how CX is going to reconfigure its aircraft; we know that the J Class is being redesigned (to the great relief of
66 CFBFrame : Could see long term some A350-1000s included in the 40? Those -1000 orders may be tough because the current 777Ws and the potential upgrades down the
67 Stitch : While the cabin of the A350-900 is indeed wider than the 787-9, I don't see CX being able to put in an additional Business Class, Premium Economy or E
68 trex8 : how about CI, VN, UA, even SQ who are A359 customers who could use A351s
69 Post contains links keesje : Because Boeing is known to under-promise and over-deliver. Many were waiting to see how the A350-1000 would be positioned. It seems Airbus was driven
70 trex8 : that may be true today, or at least with the latest 777 variants, but in the early 90s I don' think that was the conventional wisdom
71 trex8 : JP fleets shows KA having only 205K MTOW A333s and CXs lightest ones are 212K. I take it then some of those KA planes are paper derated?? I also see
72 CFBFrame : Are any of these airlines planning to place orders this year? CX and AF/KLM have announced plans to place orders this year. Was looking more at poten
73 keesje : I think Airbus finally decided to freeze the -1000 with a larger wing recently. I suspect many of the A350 delivery slots willl be changed from -800s
74 timboflier215 : I think a lot hinges on AF/KL, and also BA (as and when they order their next tranche of l/h a/c). I think BA are almost certain to get the A350 in s
75 Post contains images trex8 : only as much as you are true but it never made sense to many people to downsize from a 747 to a A359 well they will have nothing between a 772 and A3
76 Jacobin777 : BA has >50 B787's on order/options/etc. Given the recent problems the past 12-18 months with the strikes, volcano, economic downturn, I don't expe
77 trex8 : IIRC A proposed the A346 a few years before B proposed the 77W
78 CFBFrame : And we saw it die on the vine. Here's the biggest fact that should concern Airbus, in the most recent 777W/A350-1000 fight the 777W has continued to
79 rheinwaldner : I think the opposite is true. Back then Boeign had established such a record. Today they no longer can claim these things. They over promised and und
80 timboflier215 : I did not say they would be ordering soon, but there IS a second BA l/h order coming eventually. I am aware of the number of 787 they have on order,
81 rheinwaldner : IMO you are correct about the importance of that market. The 350 seat long range market within years sees a row three state-off-the-art offerings hau
82 parapente : If this order does go 777/350/787 the real body blow will be to the Jumbo/Super Jumbo sector.We have already seen one major US airline make a move dow
83 Post contains images astuteman : Er, to be absolutely specific, UA specifically said that they had negotiated "a great deal of leeway into changing models at some future date, withou
84 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Eventually, yes, but BA is since last year or two is adding 4 B77E's, 12 A380's and 1/2 dozen B77W's-though some are for replacement, ostensibly it s
85 CFBFrame : What the two of you have said here is the biggest reason for the -1000's concern. In the past program development time horizons were20-30 years, wher
86 Stitch : But they have been committed to the program. They've increased MZFW and MTOW to allow operators to lift more or fly farther and done so in such a way
87 astuteman : Personally, I find it hard to envisage the A330 having greater sales success than it has had. At least half of the sales ever recorded have come sinc
88 parapente : It is stated here that A would now wish that they had not proceeded with the A350 ie that they did not listen to one Mr UH.However it is easy to forge
89 Post contains images EPA001 : Whe it comes to Airbus here on A-net a demise is easier declared when compared to Boeing. But is shows that even if the newer and no doubt better and
90 Post contains images Stitch : I believe the silliness flows easily enough in both directions. This forum has hosted a number of discussions as of late, for example, on how Boeing
91 Post contains images EPA001 : You are correct Stitch, that is why I used the word "easier" which implies that both manufacturers are effected here by that phenomenon. . As for CX,
92 GlobalCabotage : It would be nice to see CX metal at DFW or ORD someday (other than cargo), but they do not seem like a priority. We know AA will never start these.
93 rheinwaldner : I do consider today programs as less long term but the 777 as well as the A330/A340 will pass the 20 year mark easily. But very likely they will not
94 CFBFrame : Stitch and Astuteman-- very valid points!!!! But every one of the moves were life limited by the A350/A350XWB strategy. How can you go before a custom
95 Post contains images Delimit : An argument could be made for adding the DC-9/MD-80/90/717 to that list.
96 tayser : regardless, as long as they keep flying their newest A330s into MEL, I'll remain happy. 2+4+2 config, huge seat pitch (I'm 184cm and can cross my legs
97 justloveplanes : One thing where the A350 has an edge in my opinion is the higher cabin pressure and humidity (and larger windows) made possible by the composite fusel
98 Post contains links and images astuteman : Although I understand the A380 also features higher cabin pressure and humidity..... http://thetravelinsider.info/airlines/emiratesa380review.htm htt
99 Post contains images justloveplanes : How interesting........
100 Post contains images astuteman : Interesting? One word for it, I guess. Perhaps its a bit more interesting to reflect on the fact that the A380 does these from within a (predominantl
101 timboflier215 : Quite right, the A380 was a massive leap forwards in engineering terms, but is really not credited here as much as it should be. With regards to the
102 Cartoonranger : Not sure with regards to pressurisation, but noise levels..... what a great leap forward! Airbus really should be complimented on that!
103 Post contains images EPA001 : Thanks for all the links Astuteman. They tell the whole story about another under-valued feature the A380 already has where many think that the carbo
104 Post contains images astuteman : Rightly so indeed, my friend. It is well worthy of the accreditation. It would be nice to see credit universally applied where it is due Anyway. apol
105 justloveplanes : Thanks, you answered the followup question that occurred to me later. That being CFRP being more easily amenable to higher pressures and humidity for
106 LPSHobby : why is the A380-900 intresting to Cathay but the A380-800 is not? Don´t they have routes that fit the A380-800 but don´t fit the -900 version?
107 Post contains images Stitch : Assuming CX chooses to replace all their 747-400s with 777-300ERs, an A380-900 would give them the same passenger (but not cargo) capacity of two 777
108 jfk777 : A frieght slot would not be used at peek passenger times. A 748 with 400 pasengers weighing(with baggage) and average of 200 pounds each is 80K pound
109 timboflier215 : I think Stitch was making a joke, as one A380 carries a lot less cargo than two 77Ws.
110 zeke : And the additional 10t of fuel in the HST, the major reason why the 744F normally has shorter sector lengths is that fuel is offloaded for payload. T
111 Post contains images astuteman : I honestly don't know, but the answer in pressure terms should be obvious..... they made the fuselage strong enough.... In that sense, I would suspec
112 zeke : I think it is just the way does it pressurisation, normal cabin altitude on the A330/A340 is in the 5000-7000 range, that is what Boeing is aiming fo
113 hawkercaMM : Obviously the A380 and B787 have great cabin pressure differentials relative to B777 which require a stronger structure to react the greater forces.
114 CCA : How much under floor cargo VOLUME do the following have? B77W B748i A388 A389
115 laca773 : When might we see the 789 roll out for the first time? Stitch, the second flight HKG-SFO=HKG varies between a 744 and a 77W. I think they mainly send
116 aviasian : Trading of CX and Swire Holdings shares have been suspended . . . it looks like a major announcement is due within the next couple of hours. Hopefully
117 CX flyboy : Apparently something to do with HAECO shares being sold by CX. No order announcement unfortunately.
118 rheinwaldner : That's all fine. But most things I wrote in this thread (and others) are about overall market movements. On average. Actions of one single airline th
119 Post contains images Owleye : An overview of Cathay's liveries: [Edited 2010-06-07 05:01:14]
120 Stitch : B77W: 44 LD3 positions / 214m3 B748i: 40 LD3 positions / 181m3 A388: 38 LD3 positions / 180m3 A389: 46 LD3 positions / >214m3 (projected)
121 JAL : Great to see them doing good and ordering new planes again!
122 kaitak : Fascinating figures, Stitch, and thanks for sharing. It certainly emphasises what a superbly cabable acft the 77W is; I'm actually quite surprised th
123 Jacobin777 : According to Airbus: A358- LD3 Capacity Underfloor 28 A359- LD3 Capacity Underfloor 36 A351- LD3 Capacity Underfloor 44 Volumetric payload however is
124 kaitak : Thanks Jacobin777! And thanks too to Owleye, for sharing the poster off the CX liveries ... that's something I'd like to see hanging in my study! It's
125 SEPilot : I believe that the main issue with humidity is corrosion; with aluminum construction it would involve extensive corrosion protection to be able to wi
126 zeke : HAECO or HACTL ? I think that maybe is a typo, they have 22 in the front and 16 in the aft hold, 38 total.
127 Stitch : It is correct, as Jacobin777 was referring to the A350-800. The A380-800, on the other hand, does indeed have up to 38 positions.[Edited 2010-06-07 1
128 zeke : Yep, my mistake !!
129 CX flyboy : HAECO shares being sold. HACTL shares being sold was already announced a few weeks ago.
130 Post contains links flood : update from Bloomberg: "Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd., Hong Kong’s biggest carrier, is in talks with Boeing Co. on buying 787 Dreamliner aircraft and
131 lutfi : “We’re talking to Boeing about 787s and Airbus about A350s. We have no plans at the moment to have a campaign on the A380 or on the 747-8 Intercon
132 travelhound : How many options do Cathay have for the 777?
133 Stitch : If they want belly cargo space, the A350-800 is a definite non-starter, then, since the 787-9 offers significantly more. So a mix of 787-9 for regiona
134 CCA : Thanks Stich Next question, for each A/C in a typical CX seat config, how many LD3 will be taken up by baggage or how many LD3s will be left for carg
135 Stitch : Depends on how many seats they put in. CX allows up to two checked bags per customer for passengers transiting to/from the Americas (they base it by w
136 CX747 : Interesting read about CX's future widebody purchases. I'm playing devil's advocate here but it is funny to read that the carrier is focusing mainly o
137 zeke : Stranger things have happened, what do you think the total payload uplift (pax and cargo) for the 787 and A350 series is ? I am not that surprised by
138 CX747 : If it is 787s for regional and A350s for long haul, what type of numbers are we looking at? Also, if A350s are choosen as the long haul decision, how
139 CX flyboy : Many of us in Cathay have always said that we are actually a cargo airline that happens to carry passengers on the side. Tongue-in-cheek obviously, b
140 keesje : I think the destinations CX flies to and the HKG runways make twins more likely to be payload then payvolume restricted.
141 CHRISBA777ER : This has A350 written all over it. My guess is a raft of 789, A359 and A3510s. I wonder if the 789 is too small for them, unless they are using region
142 CHRISBA777ER : As for the A380 I dont think they want them before 2017-18 etc, because they know what the A380 will be able to do by then. We may have an A389 by the
143 Burkhard : I think the general public associates the FIRST and uniqueness to the A380, even if isn't first there. All 4 operators of the A380 report increased l
144 coolfish1103 : Passengers only favored in 388 because it obviously became the newest products for all the airlines that are flying the given routes. If you were to c
145 Burkhard : Maybe in the US, here the vast majority knows about 3 aircraft: The good old Jumbo 747, the giant A380, and the I don't know it only had one deck res
146 ncfc99 : What of the claims that a current A330 beats an B787 on routes up to 4000 miles or so? Is this claim in relation to very early birds and the A332 v B
147 Burkhard : I think most of thes comparisons show an advantage of current A332 versus first 20 built 788. Nobody has a clue how the 788 will develop. What is for
148 sunrisevalley : Probably somewhat in the "rule of thumb" category since as Stitch points out it could be very much carrier and route dependent, the Boeing ACAP table
149 keesje : If so they can't wait to long ordering. EK just upped the backlog, European carriers will probably top up and there probably will be some new custome
150 zeke : First available production slot is in 2015
151 Stitch : Projected payload for the 787-9 was 58t and I would expect the A350-900 would be ≤60t based on the 69t figure that sunrisevalley gave for the A350-
152 laca773 : You have a good point, coofish1103, but the majority have no clue as to the type of a/c they are flying on. On a route like HKG-LAX-HKG, if CX were t
153 Post contains images EPA001 : That could very well be true, but first they will most likely order the B789 and A350-XWB. Like you I agree I see them taking more A350's where I see
154 Post contains links keesje : Found these numbers: (A350-800) 142,420 lb (64,600 kg) (A350-900) 167,550 lb (76,000 kg) (A350-1000) 201,945 lb (91,600 kg) http://www.aerospaceweb.o
155 Stitch : Those numbers cannot be right, as they claim an A350-1000 will lift 22t more than a 777-300ER and EK have said using their missions rules the A350-10
156 sunrisevalley : Somewhere, and I don't have the direct link, but quoted by Daniel Tsang in a recent FleetBuzz article, Tim Clark is quoted as saying that the A350-10
157 Stitch : In March of 2008, EK Vice President of Route and Fleet Planning Richard Jewsbury noted the 777-300ER will haul 6 tons more structural payload the sam
158 zeke : To use known public statements, the A350-900F will be in the 90t payload category, and A330-200F is a 70t payloaad capacity. The payload on the A330-
159 Stitch : Well the payload difference between a 777-200LR (64t) and a 777 Freighter (104t) is 40t per Boeing's figures, so why should it be such a stretch that
160 RayChuang : I think right now unless Airbus offers a really nice incentive deal, CX will likely order a large number of 777-300ER's to replace their 747's. The 77
161 CX747 : I agree with Ray. The 777-300ER is a proven winner that has been serving CX admirably for a while now. Ordering additional airframes will not incur ad
162 Post contains images laca773 : . The 77W has proven to be an excellent performer for CX. I can see them ordering more to replace the remainder of their 744s and wait to place anoth
163 sunrisevalley : Not to quibble, Wikipedia quotes from Flight international May 4-10 2010 P.10 a MEW of 118.2t
164 zeke : Boeing has achieved this on the 77F by mainly increasing the 77L MZFW by 86,000 lb (from the 77L figure to that close to the 77W figure). The 77F OEW
165 coolfish1103 : The vast majority does not, I do agree. But the rest of us, whether on here, flyertalks, or other aviation websites, do make a difference in the cont
166 laca773 : Very good points, coolfish1103. Actually from LAX the night and early morning (late night) are within two hours of each other, so if they were to hav
167 Stitch : So it's gone up another 2t since the 2008 2.2t rise...
168 zeke : I have that edition, Qatar A350 "A7-XWB" on the cover. Page 10 has an article "A350-800 takes centre stage", it does not refer to a MWE for the A350-
169 sunrisevalley : why does that not surprise me !!
170 jfk777 : Well that might work going west to HKG since CX 881 leaves at 0140 & CX 883 leaves at 2350. But coming east to LAX the two flights leave 7 hours
171 Post contains links allegro : Just in ... Cathay wants the 787 not the A380 ... they say it is about cargo and that they A350 looks good too. http://www.eglobaltravelnews.com.au/..
172 Post contains links flood : Unfortunately, the article is a little behind and a rather sloppy piece of journalism given its inaccuracies and failure to correctly cite the Bloomb
173 Post contains images allegro : Thanks for the updated link ... I should have researched better but was too excited at being able to report new "news" to the forum So this is looks
174 Lutfi : Another thought - Cathay likes competition, it keeps things better value. By making it clear they are looking at two aircraft families that have a lot
175 Burkhard : Exactly these 748F let me hope for a small subfleet of 748i with them.
176 Post contains links and images keesje : “We have no plans at the moment to have a campaign on the A380 or on the 747-8 Intercontinental,” Tyler said. Cathay won't start a campaign for VL
177 fcogafa : Interesting article there in the Independant from 2005 - Walsh played down the prospects of merging with Iberia, ruled out the A380 and the A380 neede
178 United Airline : BA will likely end up with 30+ in the fleet while CX will end up with maybe 20-25 A 380s. They might wait for the A 380-900 They might not want the A
179 Stitch : In BA's case, it saved them a boatload of money (regardless of who they had chosen). *shrug*
180 shengzhurou : A380 is good for the marketing. 748i is better for flight crew and maintenance/engineering. a358/359 is good for A333/772 replacement, and it would be
181 ctang : any indication of when this order will come. Cam
182 justloveplanes : I would think BA got a better deal from Airbus as a result of WW's negotiations. Maybe he wanted the 380 all along.
183 keesje : The 747-8i and A380 are different animals in terms of capasity. A380 is 35% bigge. Long term consequences for network and revenue strategy were enorm
184 justloveplanes : I don't think it's capacity. I think it's passenger comfort/experience and CASM. For equivalent technology, it seems the larger the aircraft, the les
185 Post contains images keesje : I have the feeling capacity is sometimes underestimated here at internet as a key parameter in airline strategy. Basicly the complete airline is buil
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