cokepopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1088 posts, RR: 9 Posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11257 times:
With today's inauguration of daily 744 from JFK-TLV combined
with daily 777 service from ATL, is Delta now the largest US carrier to
Israel ?
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16250 posts, RR: 52 Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11153 times:
Quoting cokepopper (Thread starter): With today's inauguration of daily 744 from JFK-TLV combined
with daily 777 service from ATL, is Delta now the largest US carrier to
Israel ?
That's the thing, ATL-TLV is not daily but rather 5x weekly (according to DL.com). I checked the schedules for the Summer, and it shows 5x daily ATL-TLV and daily JFK-TLV. Now the question is which is more,
EwRkId From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 594 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11114 times:
They should be the largest(Maybe) for now, but if the UA-CO merger goes through watch DL, UA is gonna for sure put a 744 at least one of the EWR flts
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16250 posts, RR: 52 Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11090 times:
Quoting EwRkId (Reply 2): They should be the largest(Maybe) for now, but if the UA-CO merger goes through watch DL, UA is gonna for sure put a 744 at least one of the EWR flts
I think we're going to see a third flight to TLV, two from EWR and one from IAD.
worldtraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11004 times:
As of right now, CO offers just under 8000 seats/week in/out of TLV; DL offers about 9500. IN terms of ASMs, DL is about 20% larger because of the ATL flight which is obviously longer.
I am certain that CO/UA will expand further; IAD-TLV makes alot of sense.... but I also fully expect that DL will add a DTW-TLV along w/ several Arab Middle East destinations.
United1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5337 posts, RR: 8 Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10940 times:
Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 4): As of right now, CO offers just under 8000 seats/week in/out of TLV; DL offers about 9500
DL has 8322 to be exact and CO has 7980....
Quoting STT757 (Reply 3): Quoting EwRkId (Reply 2):
They should be the largest(Maybe) for now, but if the UA-CO merger goes through watch DL, UA is gonna for sure put a 744 at least one of the EWR flts
I think we're going to see a third flight to TLV, two from EWR and one from IAD.
While it's kind of a topic for another thread I think your right that UA will add a flight to TLV however I think ORD-TLV might be more likely then IAD.
United1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5337 posts, RR: 8 Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10736 times:
laca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3744 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10628 times:
Has DL seen a decline in demand on the ATL-TLV-ATL flight? I'd think this flight would do very well on a daily basis with all the connections from the DL network.
It would be interesting to see what cities draw in the most connecting passengers. Is there a way to figure this out?
cokepopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1088 posts, RR: 9 Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10513 times:
Edit to add that after further checking ATL-TLV is operating Daily for June.
jfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2645 posts, RR: 5 Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10453 times:
I just find it so cool that a US airline is starting 747 services from JFK again. First NRT and now TLV. A touch of nostalgia here.
Back to the thread . . . sounds like we're splitting hairs here. Let's call it even between CO and DL with advantage CO as they are serving the biggest US market from Israel (NYC) with many more seats than DL. 2 777s vs 1 747
Btw . . . all that coming from a JFK fan before you shoot.
deltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8576 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10443 times:
its not daily due to them adding so many seats onto JFK-TLV.......this has been the story of the year for ATL, lost a bunch of seats/flights/citys while JFK is getting flights/seats.
cokepopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1088 posts, RR: 9 Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10415 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
That's the thing, ATL-TLV is not daily but rather 5x weekly (according to DL.com). I checked the schedules for the Summer, and it shows 5x daily ATL-TLV and daily JFK-TLV. Now the question is which is more,
worldtraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10373 times:
Quoting cokepopper (Reply 9): Edit to add that after further checking ATL-TLV is operating Daily for June.
bingo... it runs daily until mid-July.
Which also means DL is running as much capacity from ATL-TLV as ever... in fact on some days, more than ever because some days use the 77L which seats more than the 772ER.
DL's top O&Ds on ATL-TLV are MIA, SFO, FLL, ORD, SEA
For JFK-TLV it is SFO, LAX, ATL, ORD, BOS
For CO EWR-TLV it is SFO, BOS, IAH, ORD, MIA
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16250 posts, RR: 52 Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10371 times:
Quoting cokepopper (Reply 13): Delta went daily ATL-TLV at the end of March.
The Summer schedules show no TLV-ATL on Tu and We, go to DL.com and check their timetable.
deltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8576 posts, RR: 8 Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10095 times:
laca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3744 posts, RR: 2 Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9505 times:
Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 14):
DL's top O&Ds on ATL-TLV are MIA, SFO, FLL, ORD, SEA
For JFK-TLV it is SFO, LAX, ATL, ORD, BOS
For CO EWR-TLV it is SFO, BOS, IAH, ORD, MIA
Thanks for the information, Wortldtraveler. Very interesting. I did figure South Florida has heavy connections thru ATL onto TLV.
davescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2244 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8563 times:
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11): I just find it so cool that a US airline is starting 747 services from JFK again. First NRT and now TLV. A touch of nostalgia here.
Yeah. It is nice to see the markets picking up again....and a 744 is always a pretty bird.
That said, back to TLV.
I am surprised that DTW didn't get a flignt this summer. Could a 767 make it? I would think it would be an effective plane for the route.
Ref DTW - Middle East, same question: what planes? And of course, always the rub, what metal? I believe DL recently got 2 777s, but they are thin on metal till the 787s get into the fleet, no? Or are other double aisles coming in?
laca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3744 posts, RR: 2 Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8346 times:
Quoting davescj (Reply 20):
Yeah. It is nice to see the markets picking up again....and a 744 is always a pretty bird.
Definitely! It will be even better once they make the hard product improvements. By chance does anyone know if any of the 744 fleet has gone in for the upgraded cabin enhancements?
worldtraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8242 times:
Quoting davescj (Reply 20): I am surprised that DTW didn't get a flignt this summer. Could a 767 make it?
AC is flying/has flown the 763 from YYZ to TLV. DL's 763s have winglets (or would have them if flown on a route that long).
DTW-TLV is only about 100 miles longer than ATL-ACC and LOS. While many people incorrectly believed that the problem was the 763 on LOS, the problem is the large amount of baggage that ACC and LOS passengers carry. The baggage allowance on ATL-LOS was more than twice the amount calculated for other longhaul flights. ATL-LOS was calculated at 100 pounds of bags per passenger - the maximum allowed for checked baggage meaning that EVERY passenger was taking the maximum allowable weight. When you take out 50 lbs of bags per passenger, you can add another hour of flying time or add back the payload restrictions DL had to take in order to carry passengers and bags.
The 763ER with winglets is more than capable of remaining IN THE AIR for 12 hrs which means a 12 hr 45 minute flight wihtout payload restrictions. That can be pushed to 13 1/2 hrs if passenger or baggage weights are below average... and incidentally, East Asian passengers typically weigh less than European or African descended passengers (that is not a racist statement but basic information on humans) so the 763ER has greater utility over the Pacific. East Asians also tend to take less excess baggage than travelers to/from other global regions.
I think DL's priority this summer is to add capacity at JFK in advance of AA/BA ATI and the UA/CO merger. For DTW, the focus is on building it as an Asian gateway.
You wlll most certainly see DTW-Middle East with TLV high on the list.
laca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3744 posts, RR: 2 Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8209 times:
Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 23): The 763ER with winglets is more than capable of remaining IN THE AIR for 12 hrs which means a 12 hr 45 minute flight wihtout payload restrictions. That can be pushed to 13 1/2 hrs if passenger or baggage weights are below average... and incidentally, East Asian passengers typically weigh less than European or African descended passengers (that is not a racist statement but basic information on humans) so the 763ER has greater utility over the Pacific. East Asians also tend to take less excess baggage than travelers to/from other global regions.
DL does send their 763ER winglet versions on the ATL-TLV route. As I remember this is one of routes, that was going to have new crew rest areas installed. I believe this 763ER (do they refer to these as 76Ts?) sub-fleet were going to be the first to get AVOD throughout.
worldtraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7664 times:
Quoting laca773 (Reply 24): DL does send their 763ER winglet versions on the ATL-TLV route. As I remember this is one of routes, that was going to have new crew rest areas installed. I believe this 763ER (do they refer to these as 76Ts?) sub-fleet were going to be the first to get AVOD throughout.
The 767 has not been scheduled on ATL-TLV although it has flown the route on occassion. It does fly JFK-TLV and you are correct about the crew rest cabin and AVOD.
I'm just saying that that DTW-TLV is only 300 miles longer than JFK-TLV and 450 miles shorter than ATL-TLV. 300 miles equates to about 35 minutes of flying time and you could easily spend far more than 35 more minutes on the same flight from JFK due to taxi time. A connection at DTW could be faster and still serve many of the same markets in the NE outside of the NYC area - and allow DL to focus JFK-TLV on the local market.
DTW-TLV is a matter of when, not if. And so are other DTW-Middle East/North Africa flights.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15721 posts, RR: 48 Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6755 times:
Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 14): Which also means DL is running as much capacity from ATL-TLV as ever...
DL is down YOY a weekly trip in JUL and two in AUG.
Quoting cokepopper (Reply 13): Delta went daily ATL-TLV at the end of March.
Even with the reduced weekly departures, DL has the most US carrier ASMs to TLV from JUN onward.
DTW, though one of the top 3 MIddle East markets from DTW, is actually not a very big market. It's much smaller than ATL, and ATL has many more connections....
Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 25): And so are other DTW-Middle East/North Africa flights
...in fact none of the top Middle East markets from DTW are that big. Until there's some major business ties between DTW/Michigan and the MIddle East, those markets will remain highly seasonal, highly ethnic, lower yield traffic, and/or squashed by the State Department
[Edited 2010-06-02 08:13:21]
E pur si muove -Galileo
25 burnsie28: 744's number is correct. But the 777 number is 2710 (271 x 5 x 2) making it 8352. DL is using the 777-200ER (271 seats) not the LR (278) on the ATL-T
26 United1: DL is using the LR on occasion to TLV which of course is going to affect the numbers and CO is only about half done with the 777s so I'm sure the sea
27 PGNCS: I'm taking this at face value, but am wondering, does anyone use different standard passenger weights in different regions for weight and balance pur
28 worldtraveler: yeah but it's a whole lot larger than IAH-AKL which we see was just announced as the launch route for CO's 787s. In case you missed the memo, DTW is
29 jfk777: USair: has a PHl to TLV with an A330-200 daily.
30 peanuts: Exactly. This whole theory of O&D traffic making or braking routes may be true to an extent, but mega hub carriers are proving otherwise more and
31 mayor: I wonder if it would be viable for DL to put on another TLV flight, either out of JFK or ATL, maybe just seasonally?
33 MaverickM11: Great, so the intellectual lightweights of a.net are forever going to prove the viability of theoretical routes with ones that have yet to operate If
34 worldtraveler: DL will continue to serve FCO year round from two gateways which will be two more than some other airline. The fact that they add a 3rd hub and the l
35 peanuts: Aren't all routes that have yet to operate "theoretical", whether announced or not? Not sure on the "intellectual lightweight" part other than trying
36 davescj: DL serves FCO 2x daily from two hubs -- JFK, ATL. They are adding a 3rd, ex-DTW (which used to be CVG basically). In addition, AZ has BOS, MIA, JFK,
37 peanuts: I believe they already are, code-shared or not. Many SkyTeam customers between the US and Israel connect through AMS, CDG and FCO.[Edited 2010-06-02
38 MaverickM11: So basically like TLV, except DTWFCO has a hub on both ends. Again, if FCO is problematic, how is a smaller market, with less feed (zero feed, actual
39 deltal1011man: the LR doesn't show up in June at all. DL will likely have ATL/JFK both daily 744s before they add a 3rd flight/3rd city. Atleast Dailys to ATL(777)
40 cokepopper: It was originally scheduled for June 15th and June 29th. Wonder if LAX-TLV would work ?
41 Viscount724: That's not true for the Philippines.
42 OA412: Anyone think it would make more sense for DL to offer 2 daily 767s JFK-TLV vs the current single daily 744? By doing so, they would offer only 29 more
43 STT757: That's a Star Hub to Star hub flight, and makes more sense than DL flying LAX-SYD where there's no Sky hub at either ends. Air New Zealand themselves
44 OA412: DL has its JV with Virgin Blue that gives it feed on the SYD end of the flight. Additionally, LAX-SYD is an infinitely larger market than IAH-AKL, so
45 STT757: Has it been approved yet?.. How many carriers are already established and how many seats are already in LAX-SYD? False, I knew 9/11 was going to be b
46 deltal1011man: Good for CO. I mean do we have any mods on this site at all? Must be an off day for them........ OA4 no making since. CO is better, just better get t
47 peanuts: Houston's main credit is oil. 'nuf said. Nothing "special' about IAH just cause they may start an AKL flight...lol. Which is exactly my point... Does
48 worldtraveler: Except that the AKL market is a fraction of the sze of the Australian market and all of the connectivity that CO is counting on is dependent on sipho
49 OA412: Indeed. Looking at the US-Eastern Europe loadfactor thread, SQs flight is in the bottom 5 loadfactor wise. IAH-DME has a loadfactor of 59%, while DME
51 mayor: And do you know WHY DL dropped TLV, the first time? Because they inherited all the PA Worldpass members and for one reason or another, TLV seemed to
52 OA412: You are wrong. As mayor pointed out above, the route was flown until 9/11 and was axed after the fact. The route was inaugurated on 6/1/01 and was su
53 cokepopper: Where do you get your information from? The flight was operated on the MD-11 right up to 9/11 JFK-TLV.
54 nzrich: The one thing about AKL has as its advantage is it can offer connections direct to ADL CNS SYD BNE OOL MEL PER and also 25 destinations in NZ . Also
55 OA412: Agreed. Don't get me wrong, I think that IAH-AKL will probably do just fine. I just think that comparing IAH-AKL to LAX-SYD is somewhat apples and or
56 nzrich: Yes but there are multiple airlines now servicing LAX-SYD and many more with one stop service i doubt its now the cash cow it used to be .. At least
57 mayor: Wrong.......I just obtained these dates of DL's service to TLV: 1st.......start 01 Nov 1991--end 30 Sep 1995 2nd......start 01 Jun 2001--end 30 Sep 2
58 United1: I found this on another website and as there is no link to the article I am posting it in full. Delta Air Lines on Wednesday said it would cut 13,000
59 mayor: We also came very close to losing any cargo service we provided, after 9/11. DL and three other airlines (I imagine AA, UA and maybe TW or NW) had to
60 FlyBaby: Just wanted to mention that during the time that DL did not serve TLV from NYC directly, it heavily promoted its codeshare with ELAL on that route, me
61 mayor: On the cargo side, when I was there in '91, I was told that no matter what size a/c DL used on the TLV-CDG-JFK route (the only one, at the time) they
62 cokepopper: I would like to know why Delta chose the 744 for the JFK-TLV route instead of ATL-TLV. For competition reasons, the JFK route should get the 777 to be
63 worldtraveler: The decision in the short term is all about capacity, not product. Product certainly matters but the immediate concern for JFK overall is to become th
64 STT757: What a wierd comment, it's like the Mets striving to be the most popular baseball franchise in the Willets Point section of the NYC market.
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