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DL Reduces Capacity AMS-MSP This Summer  
User currently offline764 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 624 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 9701 times:

DL has deleted flight 247 from AMS to MSP on Wednesdays during much of the peak season (starting in the first week of July). On most affected days the following flight (265) is now hopelessly booked out (and most likely oversold). Of course I will have to rebook my connecting flights now and will also have to spend 3:35 hours in Schiphol. Not fun.....

Anyway, on the affected days AMS-MSP is now down to two 333s. It doesn't seem to be due to terribly sluggish demand (albeit Wednesday being pretty much the slowest day which is why I like to fly then), so why would they pull a flight from such a major route?

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8422 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 9625 times:
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Amazing how NW funneled so many passengers through AMS, 3 A330's from MSP and up to 5 A330 from DTW daily. Now through in Delta flights to AMS and KLM which has always had decent US coverage. That is lots of connections over AMS.

User currently offlineaf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2695 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 9617 times:

I thought DL announced for the summer schedule MSP-AMS would 3x daily. I don't understand DL's decisions sometimes.  


It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
User currently offlinePHXtoDCAtoMSP From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 9556 times:

Its 20x weekly A333 instead of 21x weekly A333. Not too huge of a deal.

Isn't this still more capacity than last summer when one of the flights was a A332?


User currently offlineChrisCruise From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 9504 times:

Quoting 764 (Thread starter):
Of course I will have to rebook my connecting flights now and will also have to spend 3:35 hours in Schiphol. Not fun.....

Try to enjoy yourself on the Panorama terrace! I can spend hours overthere and hopefully makes your transit time of 3:35 hours pass quickly!

Adios,

Christian



Flown:319, 320, 321, 343, 388, 733, 738, 742, 744, 752, 763, 764, 772, 77W, CR7, CR9, DC9-31, E70, E90, F70, F100, MD11
User currently offlineDL747400 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 9457 times:

Quoting 764 (Thread starter):
It doesn't seem to be due to terribly sluggish demand (albeit Wednesday being pretty much the slowest day which is why I like to fly then), so why would they pull a flight from such a major route?

Perhaps the state of the economy may have something to do with it? The USA is still in a very fragile recovery and with the EUR at a 4-year low against the USD, revenue management is probably anticipating softer demand in the coming months for westbound originating traffic. So remove a bit of capacity from the market now in order to maintain your pricing power and avoid having to lower your fares to fill the seats down the road. Sounds like a good idea to me.


User currently offlinetoobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 799 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 9053 times:

Quoting 764 (Thread starter):
DL has deleted flight 247 from AMS to MSP on Wednesdays during much of the peak season (starting in the first week of July). On most affected days the following flight (265) is now hopelessly booked out (and most likely oversold). Of course I will have to rebook my connecting flights now and will also have to spend 3:35 hours in Schiphol. Not fun.....

AMS is a excellent airport to have downtime at. If you're travelling light, you might want to take the train downtown for an hour.
I'm with PHXtoDCA, not a huge deal on losing a flight on wed. I wonder if DL will add it back if flights are overbooked consistently? Is the aircraft needed elsewhere or is it MX related? Or it could just be capacity control..I'm sure DL/KL have done the math


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2832 posts, RR: 45
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8994 times:

Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 3):
Its 20x weekly A333 instead of 21x weekly A333. Not too huge of a deal.

Yes. They took out one of three frequencies on the slowest travel day of the week. It's managing their resources to optimize profits, nothing more or less.

Quoting toobz (Reply 6):
I'm with PHXtoDCA, not a huge deal on losing a flight on wed.

  

Quoting toobz (Reply 6):
I'm sure DL/KL have done the math

   I'm always amazed that people start threads on a frequency or aircraft change on a route, frequently explaining why it's a bad decision. In this case DL has the numbers, unlike any of the speculators on this board, and they more than likely have a very good reason for making the changes they make. Do airline route planners make mistakes? Sure, everyone does, but on balance they know far, far more about the route at hand than anyone on this board.

3:35 in AMS does not a sob story make. Most people on this board have had much more odious sitarounds in much worse places; many if not most of the domestic flight crews on here get worse connections (sit time is unpaid, by the way) on pretty much every trip.


User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 8883 times:

I think what we are seeing is nothing to get panicked over. DL is different than NW. DL has a very "active" crew of white collar workers doing their job and counting the beans. This is actually a good sign. Keep costs down, search out maximum revenue potential and above all, don't sit idle and do nothing. Keep your eyes on the numbers.

For aviation fans like us, not seeing a "solid" schedule is often seen as a weakness by a carrier. This day and age, get used to it. With the help of expensive software, the beancounters are getting good at what they are supposed to do. It's about flexibility. Little changes and adjustments here and there is what it is gonna take to make some money these days...

They also have a major refurbishment program underway so everything is at play here...( I know, no A330's for now but they may need an A330 to replace a hangared B767 at times)

[Edited 2010-06-06 11:41:40]


Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineflydreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8607 times:

DL is fielding a larger network than NW was. Largely, NW funneled all EU traffic through MSP and DTW (yes, I know they had SEA, MEM, PDX flights, etc). DL is pushing connecting traffic across more hubs.

Naturally, they see slower mid-week demand, and so across the network it makes sense to trim a little capacity across the network.

This is a small tweak. Long-term, I think we may see a little more traffic rationalization from DL to AMS, a little growth to CDG potentially.

Long-term, with integration, we'll see MSP and DTW drop a little capacity to AMS, as the capacity is spread out across DL's network for efficiency, and potentially gain a little capacity to CDG, as that balances out from pm-DL hubs.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlinePHXtoDCAtoMSP From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8372 times:

Looks like the ATL-AMS #2 on an A332 was also changed to a 76L around the same time as this MSP-AMS change.

Maybe AMS is showing some weakness right now?

I heard that the AMS routes were doing the best for DL over the slow winter months....but maybe AMS is starting to be outpaced by other European routes necessitating somewhat less capacity than what was originally planned for this summer.


User currently offlineCoachClass From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8223 times:

I haven't been to Europe since the underwear bomber on Christmas day, but I've read since then about Amsterdam's very thorough screening of US bound passengers, using the see thru scanners. Although I agree with the aims of security, I personally would rather transit another airport. Maybe passengers are avoiding AMS because of the intense security issue with resultant decrease of service. Having said that, I know that CDG, LHR and others are just as intent on using today's technology.

User currently offlineDLHFLYER From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7758 times:

It really seems like the slippery slope for MSP. HNL, AMS... Long haul clearly doesn't seem to be in the future. Obviously, they would rather route through JFK, ATL, or DTW and keep MSP a midwest connecting hub.


Duluth is a nice city, we even get 3 months without snow per year
User currently offlinePHXtoDCAtoMSP From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7617 times:

Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 12):
It really seems like the slippery slope for MSP. HNL, AMS... Long haul clearly doesn't seem to be in the future. Obviously, they would rather route through JFK, ATL, or DTW and keep MSP a midwest connecting hub.

I hear CDG-MSP is going gangbusters and will now be year-round instead of seasonal.

Also heard the same thing about NRT & LHR, though with the caveat that almost everything to LHR & NRT is doing well right now.


User currently offlineflydreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7007 times:

Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 12):
It really seems like the slippery slope for MSP. HNL, AMS... Long haul clearly doesn't seem to be in the future. Obviously, they would rather route through JFK, ATL, or DTW and keep MSP a midwest connecting hub.

JFK has issues for DL as a connecting hub long-term. Certainly the big hub out of DTW takes some int'l steam out of MSP. The split HNL decision allows probably for more O/D with the same connecting ability. Ultimately, MSP is a domestic hub, DL's second largest, but this and a thriving MSP economy give it a good platform for the most bread and butter int'l routes.

LHR, CDG, AMS, NRT, and HNL are all safe, IMHO.

Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 13):
I hear CDG-MSP is going gangbusters and will now be year-round instead of seasonal.

Also heard the same thing about NRT & LHR, though with the caveat that almost everything to LHR & NRT is doing well right now.

NRT has always been very strong from MSP. I've been this route's biggest second-guesser, assuming it will drop to a 77E or a newly performance upgraded A332, but it keeps up strong. Ultimately it's possible the A333's could be redeployed elsewhere (high density routes where the additional seats are helpful) in favor of 2-3 767s, allowing hub-hub frequency.

I wouldn't be surprised if MSP-CDG not only is year round but gains a 2nd daily next summer.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9555 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6462 times:

Quoting flydreamliner (Reply 14):
DL's second largest, but this and a thriving MSP economy give it a good platform for the most bread and butter int'l routes.

DTW is larger than MSP now.

Quoting flydreamliner (Reply 14):
JFK has issues for DL as a connecting hub long-term

um how?

Quoting flydreamliner (Reply 14):
I wouldn't be surprised if MSP-CDG not only is year round but gains a 2nd daily next summer.

not if they fly 2-3x 330 on MSP-AMS. now if they drop it down to say 2x-3x 76L i could see 2x CDG both on 76L.



yep.
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5303 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6425 times:

Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 12):
It really seems like the slippery slope for MSP. HNL, AMS... Long haul clearly doesn't seem to be in the future. Obviously, they would rather route through JFK, ATL, or DTW and keep MSP a midwest connecting hub.

How do you come to that conclusion? All that is happening is that DL is dropping one flight on one of the slowest travel days of the week. Even after dropping the flight, they will still offer 2 daily AMS-MSP flights on Wednesdays and 3 daily every other day. I really don't believe that this is the beginning of the end for MSP international service. Rather, all you are seeing is right sizing.

Quoting flydreamliner (Reply 14):
JFK has issues for DL as a connecting hub long-term.

How do you figure?



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9555 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6382 times:

just a note.
starting Sep 1st to Sep. 30th MSP-AMS will go 3x daily 2x 333 1x 332
Oct. 1st to Oct. 29th it will then go to 3x daily 2x 333 1x 76L



yep.
User currently offline764 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4890 times:

Quoting ChrisCruise (Reply 4):
Try to enjoy yourself on the Panorama terrace

OK, just how did I manage to miss that place? Is it air side or would I have to leave the secure area? (Would be no problem at all, but at least I'd know why I've never seen it).


User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1965 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4752 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 16):
How do you come to that conclusion? All that is happening is that DL is dropping one flight on one of the slowest travel days of the week. Even after dropping the flight, they will still offer 2 daily AMS-MSP flights on Wednesdays and 3 daily every other day. I really don't believe that this is the beginning of the end for MSP international service. Rather, all you are seeing is right sizing.

Here's a conclusion for you:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 17):
just a note.
starting Sep 1st to Sep. 30th MSP-AMS will go 3x daily 2x 333 1x 332
Oct. 1st to Oct. 29th it will then go to 3x daily 2x 333 1x 76L

Once it starts, it just doesn't seem to stop. I believe 2x A333 and 1x 76L will be the lowest capacity for AMS since the DC-10 was still flying.


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9555 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4715 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 19):
Once it starts, it just doesn't seem to stop. I believe 2x A333 and 1x 76L will be the lowest capacity for AMS since the DC-10 was still flying.

Oh my gosh, DL is.......wait for it......wait for it......trying to make money. How could they do such a thing.

Oh and if you ever want to see something like year round CDG and maybe even FRA then you better be ready to see AMS get cut back.



yep.
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1965 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4424 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 20):

Oh my gosh, DL is.......wait for it......wait for it......trying to make money. How could they do such a thing.

Oh and if you ever want to see something like year round CDG and maybe even FRA then you better be ready to see AMS get cut back.

Don't evade the point because you don't like it. MSP has not seen one capacity or route increase, even a minor one, in trans-ocean international service since the merger. In fact, all six routes have seen capacity cuts. MSP is still waiting for a benefit of this deal. Are we supposed to jump for joy or something when more cuts are announced?

[Edited 2010-06-07 15:48:23]

User currently offlineflydreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4384 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 15):
Quoting flydreamliner (Reply 14):
DL's second largest, but this and a thriving MSP economy give it a good platform for the most bread and butter int'l routes.

DTW is larger than MSP now.

Overall, slightly. As a domestic hub, MSP still handles more pax, IIRC.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 16):

Quoting flydreamliner (Reply 14):
JFK has issues for DL as a connecting hub long-term.

How do you figure?

Have you seen their building(s) there? Firstly, they'd be kind of embarrassing in a secondary city of a third-world country, let alone NYC. Secondly, they're at capacity, as is. Thirdly, to build a new one will take years, during which time it's far from certain where their capacity will be moved. Terminal 4 can take on some, but not all of it. I mean, if they could buy T4 and evict everyone (but that's impossible), that'd be dandy. But for now... it's not perfect.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 21):

Don't evade the point because you don't like it. MSP has not seen one capacity or route increase, even a minor one, in trans-ocean international service since the merger. In fact, all six routes have seen capacity cuts. MSP is still waiting for a benefit of this deal. Are we supposed to jump for joy or something when more cuts are announced?


Well, in short ... yeah.. In NW days, they had limited options to connect pax overseas, so MSP had to do more of it. Geographically, however, many pax who were connected overseas by NW via MSP can be connected by the new DL more efficiently through another hub. It's only natural MSP would lose some overseas total traffic to AMS, for instance. I see year-round CDG is an important improvement. I think in time a second CDG could happen. In a dream world, we'd get a fifth European city (before you ask, AMS, CDG, LHR, and KEF).



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4305 times:

Quoting flydreamliner (Reply 22):
KEF
DL doing a MSP-KEF-AMS or DTW/BOS/JFK-KEF-AMS would be pretty much out of the box I think. Of any US carrier, DL may be able to pull it off. They'd only need a B757. (I would extend it to AMS just to make it work from both ends...)

A route like this makes a carrier stand out. They should seriously consider it. Yields may not even be too bad actually. MSP is very wealthy and Minnesotans spend like Europeans when it comes to vacations. DL should call it "The Blue Lagoon Express"...

[Edited 2010-06-07 17:29:57]


Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5303 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4291 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 19):
Once it starts, it just doesn't seem to stop. I believe 2x A333 and 1x 76L will be the lowest capacity for AMS since the DC-10 was still flying.

That does not prove anything. First, October is shoulder season. Second, DL now has many more hubs through which to funnel AMS traffic than did NW. They also have CDG through which to connect passengers whereas NW could only rely on AMS for beyond connections. Your just seeing rightsizing at work. Nothing else.

The capacity decreases are not indicative of MSP losing its longhaul flying. At the end of the day, MSP will still have 3 daily flights to AMS which is more than many larger cities have. MSP is still a very large hub and serves (and will continue to serve) a very important role for DL going forward. I simply cannot and do not believe that DL is in any way, shape, or form looking to downsize MSP or eliminate MSP longhaul flying.

Quoting flydreamliner (Reply 22):
Have you seen their building(s) there? Firstly, they'd be kind of embarrassing in a secondary city of a third-world country, let alone NYC. Secondly, they're at capacity, as is. Thirdly, to build a new one will take years, during which time it's far from certain where their capacity will be moved. Terminal 4 can take on some, but not all of it. I mean, if they could buy T4 and evict everyone (but that's impossible), that'd be dandy. But for now... it's not perfect.

Yeah I've transited through there, but I do not believe that the facility and the construction of a new one is going to spell the end of JFK as a connecting hub for DL. Certainly it will be tough for a while, but DL would not be moving forward with plans for a new facility (which many within company have hinted should be announced sometime this month) if
they they did not believe that JFK will continue to be a hub going forward. DL has been very aggressive in New York, and they are certainly not going to give anything up without a fight.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
25 af773atmsp : I think he was referring to FI's 5 weekly (?) KEF-MSP flights, although I think in July FI will upgrade to daily service at MSP.
26 peanuts : Correct, I realize that. I should have indicated that's what he meant (FI) and then go on with my DL perspective on KEF. The thought of a DL MSP-KEF-
27 SNCntry32 : Pre merger I was a bit pessimistic about Minneapolis' viablility in the long term but it is no secret that Delta is matching the right sized aircraft
28 DeltAirlines : I'm curious as to whether Delta might consider running a seasonal 737-800 out of JFK to KEF would work (though the NYC-KEF market now has both Icelan
29 deltal1011man : this is true, thought you meant overall I missed it who said MSP would benefit? In the new network europe from MSP doesn't make since when you have A
30 SNCntry32 : We have been over this before, and I guess it deserves review, but the amount of fourtune 500 companies based here with global operations is pretty s
31 azjubilee : I don't think this is as big of a deal as people make it out to be. I'd actually prefer more nonstop international destinations on smaller gage equipm
32 SESGDL : MSP is going to see more flights this summer than in the previous 3 years operating as a hub under NW. I fail to see how so many people are feeling g
33 deltal1011man : MSP's location is just not good for any type of international hub. Alot of the top O/D citys, NYC,WAs,BOS,MIA etc. would have to back track, which is
34 SNCntry32 : I fail to see how it isnt in a good geographic location since they have been doing international destnations for years and MSP connects unique spokes
35 Post contains images deltal1011man : and MSP has the seats to do that. ok so you just went for filling a 777 to filling a seat on a 777. there is what? 10-15 markets MSP has that no othe
36 SNCntry32 : Then why do you argue that MSP has a poor geographic location? The upper midwest cant support a non stop flight to lets say Milan but it still makes
37 davescj : I totally agree with this. WIth the merger, they have more options. Remember, they can also funnel connecting traffic via CDG and FCO as well. SLC al
38 Post contains images SlcDeltaRUmd11 : This basically summorizes my last DL experience at JFK but I'd add in how much of a dump the terminal is. I've been to third world countries with muc
39 MSPNWA : Uh, maybe the entire DL corporation and many here on this forum when touting the "greatness" of the merger. The 767 is finally an option for MSP, but
40 HansieAMS : The Panorama Terrace at AMS is landside. Exit through arrivals and go up to departures, go up again (escalators between T1 and T2) and follow the sig
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