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Key West Delta Vs. AirTran Update  
User currently offlineJBAirwaysFan From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1026 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9844 times:

Now that AirTran has been in Key West, FL for a while, it seems as if AirTran has added frequencies to their service. In addition, effective next Sunday June 13, Delta will have a second mainline flight (737-700) running Sunday only in addition to their daily mainline flight. Anyone know how many frequencies AirTran flies MCO-EYW? I knew they started with 4x weekly or something.


In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineboeing6594 From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9333 times:

According to their flight schedules the service, effective May 27, is daily. Previous to this they did have four flights a week.

User currently offlineJBAirwaysFan From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1026 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8804 times:

Quoting boeing6594 (Reply 1):
According to their flight schedules the service, effective May 27, is daily. Previous to this they did have four flights a week.

AirTran must be doing real well, or this is a seasonal adjustment. Either way, good for FL.



In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
User currently offlineYVPHX From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8745 times:

Does anyone know if there is a weight restriction? Previously there was a post about heavy weight restrictions. Anyone have numbers?

User currently offlinevivavegas From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 505 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8410 times:

My AirTran spy gave me initial cap for Airtran at 75 passengers when service first started, I will confirm in the morning.

Craig
MKE



MKE / EYW / LAS - The true trifecta of aviation!
User currently offlineJBAirwaysFan From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1026 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8402 times:

DL must have a stricter weight restriction since they have to fly from ATL instead of MCO.


In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9553 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8367 times:

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 5):

DL's wont be to bad because they have 738 engines on the 73G, while FL's 73Gs have lower thrust than that of DLs. (not saying they don't have any, but i don't think its really bad......would be a fun flight to take)



yep.
User currently offlinedlramper From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 9 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8304 times:

Delta has a non rev restriction of only checked bag per person.

User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7212 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8228 times:

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 2):
or this is a seasonal adjustment

Well the summer is the off season for Key West so looks like this should be year round.

Mainline aircraft flying into EYW is pretty awesome I must say. I would love to go down one day just to see those things take off and land or even better be on a flight!



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinewjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5251 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8155 times:

Maybe this was discussed before, but does the 73G have better short-field performance than the 717, at least under these conditions? If you're capping at 75, one would think that you would use the smaller aircraft, unless there are performance differences. Surprising, given that the 717 always feels like a hot-rod when I'm riding it, even when full. The 73G does not.

User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8054 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 8):
Mainline aircraft flying into EYW is pretty awesome I must say. I would love to go down one day just to see those things take off and land or even better be on a flight!

Hanging out on Duvall St. and having one of them buzz your head


User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3828 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7981 times:

Quoting vivavegas (Reply 4):
My AirTran spy gave me initial cap for Airtran at 75 passengers when service first started, I will confirm in the morning.

I heard 100.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 9):
Maybe this was discussed before, but does the 73G have better short-field performance than the 717, at least under these conditions? If you're capping at 75, one would think that you would use the smaller aircraft, unless there are performance differences. Surprising, given that the 717 always feels like a hot-rod when I'm riding it, even when full. The 73G does not.

Just from a visual perspective, the 717 hauls all kinds of @$$ leaving CRW for MCO. I've never ever seen any other full jets picking the nose up in 3,500ft. However, they do seem to take their time coming to a stop.

Landing may actually be more of an issue at EYW. I dont think the 717 has autobrake like the 73? Correct me if I'm wrong.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7948 times:

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 9):
Maybe this was discussed before, but does the 73G have better short-field performance than the 717, at least under these conditions? If you're capping at 75, one would think that you would use the smaller aircraft, unless there are performance differences. Surprising, given that the 717 always feels like a hot-rod when I'm riding it, even when full. The 73G does not.

When watching the TRS 737Gs departing from MCO and TPA they seem to use a lot of runway. I've seen the TRS use as much runway at MCO as the VIR 744s, and when trying to get pictures of the TRS 737s departing from TPA short term roof on 36L they are too far down the runway to get a decent picture, while the SWA and COA 737s lift off right in front of me.


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4211 posts, RR: 37
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7880 times:

I flew an out and back there a couple weeks ago. We were full both ways on a DL 737-700 out of ATL.

No weight restrictions in or out on a flight with bad weather en route and alterates both ways.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3828 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7880 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 12):
When watching the TRS 737Gs departing from MCO and TPA they seem to use a lot of runway. I've seen the TRS use as much runway at MCO as the VIR 744s, and when trying to get pictures of the TRS 737s departing from TPA short term roof on 36L they are too far down the runway to get a decent picture, while the SWA and COA 737s lift off right in front of me.

FL probably requires a max de-rate+lowest flap setting takeoff, conditions permitting.


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4211 posts, RR: 37
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7687 times:

Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 14):
FL probably requires a max de-rate+lowest flap setting takeoff, conditions permitting.

So does Delta....

Double-derated flaps 1 is normal for both the 700 and 800 series unless the runway requires more flaps or more power.

If you're trying to skimp a few degrees C on a derate or decrease a flaps setting by bumping 20 people, I don't want to ride on that airline.

[Edited 2010-06-07 00:34:14]


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1969 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7413 times:

Quoting vivavegas (Reply 4):
My AirTran spy gave me initial cap for Airtran at 75 passengers when service first started, I will confirm in the morning.

Yikes! That's just a little above half full if that's true. Speaking of -700s, if this were WN, we wouldn't make a dime on that one considering our break-even load factor is around 80-90 paxs.

Definitely try to confirm that... that's an interesting factor.



My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9553 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7006 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 13):

Yea the DL 73Gs are rockets. Its a fun ride during TO in ATL, i bet its a blast at Key west.



yep.
User currently offlineRiddlePilot215 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6921 times:
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Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 14):
FL probably requires a max de-rate+lowest flap setting takeoff, conditions permitting.

I would assume the de-rated takeoffs are on the warm days. It's more fuel-efficient (you get a better burn due to the DA), easier on those expensive engine parts, and hell, they have 10,000+ feet of runway on the 3 runways I've seen them use for departures so they're not really too worried about extended stop distance. Though it's not always airline specific, and really it comes down to pilot's choice and what kind of loads that flight is dealing with.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 15):
If you're trying to skimp a few degrees C on a derate or decrease a flaps setting by bumping 20 people, I don't want to ride on that airline.

Why? There isn't anything seemingly unsafe with the practice as long as the numbers are properly worked out. In an industry where everything seems to be about margins, and saving money where you can...I would imagine any technique that is legal and actually recommended by the manufacturer to be a legit practice. Regardless of if they have to bump 20 people and all their crap or not. I'm not trying to argue, it's just my two-cents FWIW.




Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 16):
Yikes! That's just a little above half full if that's true. Speaking of -700s, if this were WN, we wouldn't make a dime on that one considering our break-even load factor is around 80-90 paxs.

Definitely try to confirm that... that's an interesting factor.

WN's break even factor is 80-90 passengers, assuming they still use their usual pricing structure for that flight. Obviously DL and FL are going to be charging higher fares for what seems to be a pretty premium service...It's not everyday you hear of a commercial 737 (or any 737 at all for that matter) landing at Key West with any sort of regularity. Plus, common airline business sense would dictate that the lower the possibilities of breaking even on a flight would dictate the necessity for having a higher fare to a place which is in essence a "premium destination."

And just to compare "premium destination" vs. "premium destination" in pricing I did a spot price of what it would cost for me to fly from Cleveland to Key West, Cleveland to San Juan on Air Tran and Continental...assuming I was traveling more than 21 days in advance.

CLE - SJU : $298 base, $356.70 after taxes/ fees. Flown with B737 / 738 equipment. +1 stop on CO.
CLE / CAK - EYW : $466 base, $508.80 after taxes/ fees. Flown with 735 / 738 & B190 equipment. + 1 stop on CO.


CLE / CAK - SJU: $498.20 RT. Flown with B717 / 737 equipment. +1 stop on FL.
CLE / CAK - EYW : $482.50 RT. Flown with B717 / 737 equipment. +2 stops on FL.



God is good, all the time. All the time, God is good.
User currently offlineJosh32121 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6363 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 13):
I flew an out and back there a couple weeks ago. We were full both ways on a DL 737-700 out of ATL.

No weight restrictions in or out on a flight with bad weather en route and alterates both ways.

I flew ATL-EYW on the 73G in February, and when I checked in online, the only bag check option in the dropdown box was 1 bag (not the 2, 3, etc. that oridnarily show up), so I think it's at least bag quantity restricted, which is effectively weight-restricted. Aren't all flights technically weight-restricted, though just not always to the point that they can't carry their full pax load?


User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3828 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6049 times:

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 19):
Aren't all flights technically weight-restricted, though just not always to the point that they can't carry their full pax load?

Technically, I suppose they are.


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2832 posts, RR: 45
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5826 times:

Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 18):

Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 14):
FL probably requires a max de-rate+lowest flap setting takeoff, conditions permitting.

I would assume the de-rated takeoffs are on the warm days.

Why do you assume that? We derate when we can whether it's warm or cold. Some airports you can't derate at, most you can.

Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 18):
Though it's not always airline specific, and really it comes down to pilot's choice and what kind of loads that flight is dealing with.

Methodology for calculating performance including derates is airline specific and governed by that carrier's ops specs and FAA approved manual set, although the data and analysis behind the numbers normally comes from the manufacturer (or a vendor specializing in performance analysis.)


User currently offlinefloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2015 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5421 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 13):
I flew an out and back there a couple weeks ago. We were full both ways on a DL 737-700 out of ATL.

No weight restrictions in or out on a flight with bad weather en route and alterates both ways.

I flew out of EYW on FL a couple weeks ago. There were only 12 open seats on the aircraft and all the non-revs got cleared.....



Good goes around!
User currently offlineJBAirwaysFan From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1026 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5347 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 8):
Mainline aircraft flying into EYW is pretty awesome I must say. I would love to go down one day just to see those things take off and land or even better be on a flight!

With my move to NY in a month, maybe I'll have the honor to fly DL from LGA-ATL-EYW mainline. Would be a treat!



In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
User currently offline73g From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 128 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4898 times:

As far as FL ops at EYW are concerned, let me clear up a few things...

Flights are planned using 'DRY' runway data for both takeoff and landing unless the runway surface is appreciably wet. Typically, all FL flights are planned using 'WET' data for landing to allow for an additional 15% stopping margin unless performance, or a MEL dictates otherwise (Anti-skid inop for example). Using 'DRY' data, there is no payload penalty in to or out of EYW. We can carry a full load in and full load out with no problem. Full inbound flights will typically be planned for a Flaps 40, Autobrake 3 or MAX landing. Full departures can be planned up to Flaps 25, Max power. Regardless of payload, FL initially operated all arrivals/departures in this configuration. After several weeks of being flown by check airmen with a FAA examiner in the jumpseat, these restrictions were reduced to an 'as needed basis'.

If the runway surface is considered 'WET', the estimated hit to the payload is not as bad as you'd think. We can still carry about 90 in and 120 out. Fortunately, it rarely stays wet in EYW for very long (outside of a tropical event, in which case we won't be operating there anyway). In fact, since FL has started ops, the payload has not had to be capped once. We do plan for one checked bag per passenger, thus the one bag restriction. Typically, this is a conservative number as many passengers are from the Orlando area and are only going down for a couple days, thus using a carry-on bag only. We have never left off bags either.

There are several other mechanical componenents of the airplane that must be signed off prior to every EYW flight as being operable. These include thrust reversers, anti-skid, autobrake, Auto-spoilers, APU Bleed, and ENG Anti-Ice. If any one is on MEL, it either has to be cleared, or another aircraft has to be swapped on to the line of flying.

I hope this answers at least some of the questions regarding operations in and out of EYW. It's performing very well for us, thus the daily service which is planned to remain through the summer and into the high season.


25 wjcandee : Wow! Thanks for the clear, informative post, and welcome to my RU list. What you describe makes me feel good about flying FL, which I do (and just di
26 Clipper002 : Bill, Just to let you know 73G is my youngest son and is a chip off of the old block. Rgds, Ed
27 KingAir200 : Interestingly, DL will be using the 319 on ATL-EYW-ATL on weekends starting in August.
28 JBAirwaysFan : Didn't know the 319 had the potential for EYW.
29 DWController : Whos working the ground operations for Air Tran in EYW?
30 UAL747DEN : What a great post, we don't see that a lot here on Anet! I'm with the other guy, you made the RU list! LOL, love it! Sounds like you should be a pret
31 73g : Piedmont Airlines (US Airways Express)
32 KcrwFlyer : Are the black capes at UA one size fits all, or are they custom fitted? Maybe the cooler fall weather will help it out. They run SNA-DTW on 319, so t
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