Aviatsiya From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1704 times:
This news will surely have some far-reaching implications within the Russian aviation industry. In light of recent developments in the "merging" of the aviation companies into distinct business units, will this plan by Boeing ever get past the "let us tell media about our plans for Russia" phase?
And what, if any, do people see as being the advantage for the Russian manufacturers in this? Apart from the obvious; bringing them much needed cash
MOSCOW - U.S. Boeing Corp is in talks with Russian aviation companies over the joint production of two jet liners, a senior official for the aerospace giant was quoted as saying on Tuesday.
Thomas Pickering, Boeing senior vice president for international relations, told the Vedomosti daily newspaper that the projects had the potential to bring big financial returns to both Russia and Boeing.
"Both projects are being evaluated for their technical and economic feasibility and a business plan is being worked out," Pickering was quoted as saying.
"Our main task now in the preparatory stages is to fully study the needs of potential clients so that our product will be suitably competitive on a market that has great potential."
Plans to jointly develop the new planes are part of a major cooperation agreement that was signed in April by Boeing CEO Philip Condit and Yuri Koptev, the head of Russia's joint aviation and space agency Rosaviakosmos.
Pickering, former ambassador to Russia and a U.S. under-secretary of state, said it was too early to say how much money could be invested in development of the aircraft, but that financing "could take on an international character".
He said also that one of the projects, for a regional jet liner, foresaw creation of an entirely new plane.
"No prototype exists for it now. Design work will be done in Russia with methodological support from Boeing," he said. "I believe that joint work between Boeing and Russia...is capable of creating a revolution."
Pickering added that Boeing was considering opening a service centre for its aircraft in Russia, but no concrete decision had yet been taken on that possibility.
Boeing is one of Russia's most prominent foreign investors. Over the last eight years it has invested $1 billion in the country and works with more than 500 Russian engineers and scientists. It has sold about 50 planes in Russia and other former Soviet states since the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991.
In peak years, the Soviet Union built up to 60 percent of world aircraft, but its collapse ravaged aviation enterprises. Last year Russia produced just four planes, compared with 489 by Boeing alone.
From the Seattle Times
*** Boeing, Russia Jet Partners?
Boeing`s talk of teaming up with Russia on an all-new passenger jet could lead to a partnership between two countries rich in aerospace heritage, but some observers doubt a joint venture will come to fruition.
Thomas Pickering, Boeing`s senior vice president of international relations, elaborated last week on a recent agreement between Boeing and the Russian Aviation and Space Agency, telling journalists in Europe the company might develop an aircraft, possibly a regional jet, as part of the partnership. Russians would build the jet with Boeing's help.
Russia offers a tantalizing market, but Boeing would be venturing into new territory. A regional jet would be smaller than any passenger jet Boeing has built.
Aviation consultant Adam Pilarski questioned how much Boeing understands regional jets, whose customers usually are not the same ones that buy Boeing`s bigger airliners.
The regional-jet market is highly competitive, with Bombardier, Embraer and Fairchild Dornier leading the pack, and a host of nations, including South Korea, India and China, nursing dreams of developing their own smaller jets, said Pilarski, a senior vice president of Aviatas, an aviation-consulting firm in Reston, Va.
Still, the Russians have a big need for new regional jets and lack money to buy them.
Aeroflot, the Russian carrier, was once the world`s largest airline. But since the fall of the Soviet Union a decade ago, the Russian aviation market has shrunk dramatically, and virtually no civilian planes are being built there.
Pilarski said he doubts a Russian-built jet would find many customers outside its home. Despite success in space, the country has a dismal record in civil aviation. Aeroflot at one time was crashing with such regularity that the U.S. Embassy in Moscow told its employees to avoid traveling by air.
Given Boeing`s financial muscle and aerospace know-how, ``if they want to crush the existing competitors, they can do it. They can drive everybody out of business,`` Pilarski said. ``But I`m not positive that it will be a smart move.``
The joint-venture idea is part of an agreement signed last month by Boeing Chairman Phil Condit and the Russian Aviation and Space Agency /Rosaviakosmos/.
It is Boeing`s plan for the possible new jetliner that is attracting the most scrutiny from Boeing workers in the Puget Sound area. The Russians are discussing building a 50- to 100-seat short-haul plane that could be sold worldwide.
``This is something we want to watch very closely,`` said Bill Dugovich, spokesman for the Seattle engineering union at Boeing.
Adding to the engineers` concern is that the Russians are experts in working with titanium, a metal noted for its strength, heat resistance and relatively light weight. Titanium parts could play a crucial role in Boeing`s proposed Sonic Cruiser, Dugovich said.
Boeing already has close ties with the Russians. They are joint-venture partners in the International Space Station and in Sea Launch, which launches satellites from a converted oil platform.
The Russians also contributed a noise-prediction model that made the next-generation 737 jetliners quieter, as well as design for the pivoting overhead bins in the 777.
Boeing so far is only examining the feasibility of potentially building a plane with the Russians, said Rick Fuller, a Boeing spokesman. ``There is no commitment to do anything.``
The size of the airplane envisioned by Russia could overlap with Boeing's 106-seat 717, which is built in Long Beach, Calif., as well as the 110-seat 737-600, which is assembled in Renton.
Boeing had considered shrinking the 717 down to about 80 seats or enlarging it to about 125 seats, but so far hasn't found enough market interest, said John Thom, a Boeing spokesman in Long Beach.
He said any jet venture with Russia is far off and would have to address the ``impact it would have on the current Boeing planes.``
Katekebo From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 684 posts, RR: 6 Reply 6, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1543 times:
It would be a really nice thing, a true win-win. Lower production costs for Boeing, and more work (survival opportunity?) for at least some part of the Russian well-developed aviation industry and infrastructure. It will even open new markets for Boeing in the countries that are openly or tacitly anti-American.
Jpz1991 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 70 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1538 times:
This is great! Russia has a long and proud tradition of pioneering and excelling in aviation. This should put Boeing firmly in to the "top dog's" spot and relegate Airbus to a respectable second place.
KUGN From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 615 posts, RR: 6 Reply 10, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1533 times:
Wasilenko, what do you mean used? If I was Boeing, and I heard things like this, I'd give up entire deal. Building aircrafts is not charity work, it is business with an interest of all parties participating in production.
KUGN From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 615 posts, RR: 6 Reply 12, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1520 times:
Aviatsya, there is still time to find a topic on which we will agree, don't typecast others that quickly.
Yes, I'm well aware of great achevements of Russian aviation industry, but do I need to mention that as a disclaimer in our discussion, so that when I say something negative wouldn't be stereotyped? Something like "Some of my best friends are russian aviation engineers"
Besides, this is not the topic. Lets start a separate topic about great passanger jets of the past decades, and you might see my admiration for Tupolevs in particular. 134 and 154 are my favourite. And while I was growing up I hanged on the airport on my parents used to work, which had those a/c as visitors, so I do have great impressions of them.
But here, topic is different.
Why don't you in short explain the history of Boeing's abuse of Russian industry, from your perspective? Try to present me your point of view rather than label me.
I'm willing to read and learn your perspective. Don't just "send" people to do background reading, because chances are, they won't find the sources you are implying to. Market your ideas in open disciussion forum, don't label others.
I fail to see how would any mentioned of joint programs for production of B712 or B736 be abuse of Russian industry.
If its that bad, why doesn't then Russian Industry refuse the offer; perhaps they have better projects in the pipeline?
But if you are sitting idle, and not have any production, then I'd accept anything that was offered.
When I arrived to this country, even though I was skilled, I picked any job. And I did not scream that I was used, but I worked my way up. In the simmilar way, I look at this situation with eastern european corporate wellfare.
RIX From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1785 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1511 times:
Russia and China were mentioned together... well, while Soviet/Russian aviation has glorious history and, at least, everything flying in the USSR was made in USSR (except the WWII when up to 10% of Soviet fighters/bombers were of American/British production... not too much anyway) - then what the hell has China achieved in this area to be mentioned together with Russia? If Airbus cooperates with China and Boeing with Russia then Boeing is a 100% winner. I wish everything built in China stay in China while I will fly on Russian built Boeing any day any place any destination.
Airbus Lover From Malaysia, joined Apr 2000, 3248 posts, RR: 10 Reply 14, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1506 times:
i think ppl have prejudiece on China or something. What's wrong with making a plane in China? I think cost-price / overhead of building comes first and lots of things subsequent. We have to be aware that China has a very low pay for the workers!!! that's y there is many big multinational companies there!
RIX From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1785 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1501 times:
Airbus Lover, nothing prejudiced. The point is that China is no way equal to Russia in aviation technology. May be Chinese built aircraft are good enough not to "stay in China" but then no problems with Russia at all...
GOT From Sweden, joined Dec 2000, 1912 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1496 times:
Boeing to be built in Russia? It could be good for Russia but I think that it wont be more then a dream. If people realized that the a/c was built in Russia they would start asking if the plane really was safe. And if there's only a question about safety the airlines might change to another manufacter.
Just like birdwatching - without having to be so damned quiet!
RIX From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1785 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1478 times:
MDC had some MD-90's produced in China (the MD-90T). - not only this, but it is far from having an independent aviation industry covering all the country needs. Russia is still one of the leaders in this area while China is nowhere around.
Wasilenko From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1474 times:
Building Boeing in Russia is like producing an Airbus in USA.
Just imagine Boeing built 717 in Russia! Does this mean the end to Tu-334 which is an aircraft that is a direct competition to 717! The only reason why Tu-334 is not in mass production is the shortage of funds! It has fine engines D-436, four channel fly-by-wire, and is has many common features with Tu-204!
717 does not have that much potential in Russia, the only airline that considered it was Kras Air, the reason is non-existance of Tu-334-200D.
Previouslly there never existed a single deal between Russia and the West that did good for Russian Federation. Russia is always left screwed! As I said before recall the Il-96M/T deal and you will see!!!
Ilyushin96M From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 2609 posts, RR: 13 Reply 20, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1463 times:
It should be noted that Boeing was responsible for the axing of the IL-96M/T deal. They didn't want the competition, so they lobbied the US government to pressure PW and Rockwell not to do business with Russia. If not for this circumstance, Aeroflot would already be operating the IL-96T, at least.
The Ilyushin widebody airliner/cargo transport would have been FAR cheaper to build, purchase and operate, and would have been just as reliable and fuel-efficient as any Western equivalent. I wonder if this project can be saved by using Russian avionics and maybe CFM engines?
The idea of a Western company producing airliners in Russia seems a sound one to me, if only from the standpoint of high quality and materials. However, I think Boeing is simply looking for a cheaper way to make its planes, and will only do what many other US companies have shamelessly done for decades - take advantage of a workforce which is used to lower salaries and living standards, and not make any lasting difference in the economic situation of the country in which it would be operating its plants. The Boeing aircraft produced in Russian plants would be marketed alongside aircraft produced in the US, and would not be less expensive to purchase than those actually made here.
I think Boeing is only seeking to make a profit and deplete the vast resources of Russia. No way should Putin allow Boeing to simply build planes over there. If he had any sense, he would do more to promote research and development in the Russian aviation industry so that Russian engine makers could produce a powerplant that would be as good as, say, a Rolls-Royce RB211 or Trent. That's what Russia really needs. Perhaps if Boeing is willing to collaborate with Ilyushin and Tupolev to produce quality Russian aircraft, that would be the best opportunity for a joint venture. But I don't imagine Boeing would be too interested in such a situation, because they would only be helping Russia to produce competitive products.