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Why No Fokker 50s In North America?  
User currently offlineljungdahl From Sweden, joined Apr 2002, 907 posts, RR: 37
Posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5809 times:

The Fokker 50 is present in almost all parts of the world, with the exception of North America.

Why?

The F-27 found its way there, as well as the F-28 and Fokker 100.

Is there any other type of commercial aircraft, that so completely "missed" a large region, although sold in large numbers in the rest of the world?

/Johan

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2990 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5723 times:
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As i recall the F50 just didn't have a good enough price vs cost for the few airlines looking at 50+ seat turboprops which are not that common in the USA.

ATR locked up two of the major options early: American Eagle/Simmons and ASA) . UA/Air Wisconsin went for ATPs because BAe made a nice package deal with some 146s tossed in. The F50 was, as i recall, in that competition but was ruled out early on and that left the ATP, Dash 8-300 and ATR72... i recall it being a shock when they chose the ATP.

The Dash 8-300 didn't sell that well in the US, though the -100 did... and for the most part the Dash 8-300 sold to airlines with -100s in their fleets already.

Truth is, that without a smaller cousin, the F50 was doomed in the US market, the 80s US market was dominated by 2 types: EMB-120 and Saab 340, they got by far the lion's share, with ATR and Dash 8s picking up all but a very small percentage of the rest which went to BAe with J41s and ATPs.

Fokker was just too big, too expensive and just not needed.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3955 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5589 times:

You might be interested in this thread I started 8 years ago (time goes by...)

Fokker 50's Market Failure In The US (by Vfw614 Mar 1 2002 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5339 times:

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 1):
Fokker was just too big, too expensive and just not needed.

I do not completely agree with you.
As I see it(as a Fokker employee for the last 30 years).
The good old F.27 was a simple, rugged and relative cheap aircraft which excelled at remote locations.
The F50 was aimed at a higher segment, more complicated and more expensive.
Thus never a true F.27 follow up which is why it was selected by mainline airlines like KLM and SAS who required jet like comfort and quality but not by all those F.27 users who were just looking for a "new" F.27


The irony wants that the F50's are now converted by a Dutch company in their North American(Denver) facility.
http://www.aircraftconversions.com/index.php



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7986 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5007 times:

Alas, there's no market for the Fokker 50 today if Fokker were still around because of the success of the Bombardier Dash 8-Q400 and (to a lesser degree) the ATR-72.

User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5004 times:

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 1):
ATR locked up two of the major options early: American Eagle/Simmons and ASA)

Continental Express also was an early customer of the ATR.

I am surprised Northwest/Mesaba didn't since they were big Fokker 27 users and they didn't replace their 50 seat fleet


User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2669 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4877 times:

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 1):
UA/Air Wisconsin went for ATPs because BAe made a nice package deal with some 146s tossed in. The F50 was, as i recall, in that competition but was ruled out early on and that left the ATP, Dash 8-300 and ATR72... i recall it being a shock when they chose the ATP.

That was the first round when ZW got the ATP's. Later on, they were looking for an F27 replacement for their IAD operation in the early 1990's. They chose a combination of Dash 8-100's and Dash 8-300's to replace the F27.

Quoting ljungdahl (Thread starter):
Is there any other type of commercial aircraft, that so completely "missed" a large region, although sold in large numbers in the rest of the world?

HS 121 Trident.


User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3955 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4767 times:

Aviopic has it explained already: In a way, the Fokker 50 played in a somewhat different league than the ATR42 and the DHC8. It was particularly appealing to legacy carriers willing to pay a bit more for getting a bit more of an aeroplane. Just check the list of its first-hand operators..

User currently offlineisitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4586 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 5):
I am surprised Northwest/Mesaba didn't since they were big Fokker 27 users and they didn't replace their 50 seat fleet

Im not sure which 50 seat fleet you mean. I do believe the Mesaba Fairchild/Fokker used around 1990 had
44 seats............. then, slightly downgraded to the Dash-8's with 37 or 38 seats.
Of course I could be 101 percent wrong here.
safe   



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7057 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4528 times:

Quoting bohica (Reply 6):
HS 121 Trident.

A340-300 never made to the US.....sadly



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4261 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 9):
A340-300 never made to the US.....sadly

Did actually any A340 version make it to a US carrier?


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24803 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4158 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 10):
Quoting columba (Reply 9):
A340-300 never made to the US.....sadly

Did actually any A340 version make it to a US carrier?

I believe the only carriers in North America to operate the A340 were AC (13 343s and 2 345s) and Canada 3000 which had one 343 very briefly. It was delivered about 2 months before Canada 3000 went bankrupt and suspended service in late 2001 in the wake of 9/11.


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User currently offlineKent350787 From Australia, joined May 2008, 960 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3993 times:

When I used to do more regional flying for work (Australia), there were some routes with a choice of S340, DHC8 (100/200) or F50 - the F50 was always my preferred choice. Much quieter, and two flight attendants for Ansett. Definitely a different "class" of aircraft, and the biggest current operator is Skywest, which has a number of those Ansett craft in its fleet.

User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3853 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 10):
Did actually any A340 version make it to a US carrier?

Northwest ordered them back in the early 1990s, but then they had their financial problems back then - they instead took deliveries of the A330 finally in 2003.

Continental I think ordered A340s also, I actually have a model Continental A340-300 but they took the 777 instead.

Whatever happened to the USAirways A340s? I thought US was going to order some for routes to China


User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1051 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3836 times:

"Why No Fokker 50s In North America?"

Quoting ljungdahl (Thread starter):
Fokker 100

Because one Fokking 100 = 2 Fokking 50's ??   



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2669 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3739 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 10):
Quoting columba (Reply 9):
A340-300 never made to the US.....sadly

Did actually any A340 version make it to a US carrier?

Actually the OP asked if there were any planes which sold well but did not sell in all of North America. Not only did the Trident not sell in North America, none ever landed on the continent either. I don't believe the B743 sold in North America either.

The A340 and B773 have sold in North America but not in the US.


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3611 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 13):
Continental I think ordered A340s also, I actually have a model Continental A340-300 but they took the 777 instead.

Does it have the old livery with the red stripe? I once saw a drawing of that, looked nice.

Quoting bohica (Reply 15):
The A340 and B773 have sold in North America but not in the US.

Yep, strange enough that AC took the 77W while not a single US carrier did.


User currently offlineDash9 From Canada, joined Nov 2008, 194 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3485 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 16):
Yep, strange enough that AC took the 77W while not a single US carrier did.

Within Canada AC is the only carrier with long range flights to/from Asia, and everything is funneled through two hubs, YYZ and YYV, while in the US there are 3 or 4 carriers each with 2 or 3 hubs that have flights to Asia. There is more capacity in the US but it is shared on much more different flights so smaller aircrafts are used.


User currently offlineTransIsland From Bahamas, joined Mar 2004, 2042 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3454 times:

It is rumoured around the airport here that an analysis by UP, when looking for options, recommended the F50 over the D8-300, but that the Dash was then ordered, after some palms were greased.


I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
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