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Sky Team: Why No South America?  
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 10006 posts, RR: 15
Posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7926 times:

I couldn't find a thread discussing this topic but it keeps me puzzled as to who the Sky Team alliance has so little presence in South America. They used to have CM but they left due to CO leaving the alliance. Now AV and TA are rumored to be interested in the Star Alliance as well. These were the only suitable airlines left in Latin America to give Sky Team any meaningful presence and coverage in South America. So what's the deal with Sky Team? Are they secretly in duscussion with AV or TA to join them? If not, why not? South America has one of the few growing economies nowadays with several countries with good potential (Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Peru come to mind). Why would Sky Team not want to go for those markets (if this is true of course)?

A388

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePacNWJet From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 980 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7889 times:

Quoting A388 (Thread starter):
These were the only suitable airlines left in Latin America to give Sky Team any meaningful presence and coverage in South America. So what's the deal with Sky Team?

In many ways, your question answers itself. There are only a few airlines in Latin America to choose from and most if not all of them already are part of an alliance or are predisposed to an alliance other than Sky Team. LAN is with OneWorld, TAM is with Star, and Continental's impending merger with United (barring government action to stop it) makes it logical that Copa will go with Star. Avianca and TACA would be good options for Sky Team, but they can't be forced to join an alliance simply because Sky Team needs them.

Quoting A388 (Thread starter):
Are they secretly in duscussion with AV or TA to join them? If not, why not?

Well, if the discussions truly are secret it's unlikely many a.netters would know about it, but perhaps there are a few insiders who know something. If so, they may or may not post something here to that effect, depending on how secret the discussions are.

Quoting A388 (Thread starter):
South America has one of the few growing economies nowadays with several countries with good potential (Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Peru come to mind). Why would Sky Team not want to go for those markets (if this is true of course)?

Again, the problem is the shortage of suitable alliance members.


User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3105 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7847 times:

I agree - Skyteam (which means, just Delta in the U.S. now) flyers can get to major gateways fine, but if we want to go to secondary cities by air and use the same airline or connect to a partner airline, we're pretty much out of luck.


Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 10006 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7759 times:

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 2):
but if we want to go to secondary cities by air and use the same airline or connect to a partner airline, we're pretty much out of luck.

That is what I mean as well. Sky Team has very little to no coverage in South America. GOL is some agreement with KL but that's it. They are no full member of Sky Team.

I agree with PacNWJet in that no airline can be forced to join any alliance but why hasn't Sky Team approached South American airlines earlier or why haven't they approached AV and TA (if they haven't done so already)? Is South America that unimportant to them for them not to have approached these airlines earlier? I personally thought AV would go to Sky Team as their competing South American airlines already are members of the other alliances but so far it looks like they want to join the Star Alliance.

A388


User currently offlineJosh32121 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7723 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 3):
Sky Team has very little to no coverage in South America.

That's inaccurate. They have a presence via DL, AF, KL, and KE. It just isn't as large as oneworld's or Star's coverage, and it isn't useful at all for travel within South America.


User currently offlineTalaier From Spain, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7678 times:

Quoting A388 (Thread starter):
Why would Sky Team not want to go for those markets (if this is true of course)?

It's not that they don't want to, but rather that they can't as said above. Sky arrived late to the party and the only thing they could grab south of the US was AeroMéxico, which isn't in South America obviously. IMO Sky has done played its cards pretty badly and could've lured Avianca or TACA long before Star came in.

However, it's not the first region in which they are too late. Their presence in OZ is poor as well, and unless they get their act together they risk being left behind in India as well.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7678 times:

[/quote]

Quoting PacNWJet (Reply 1):

Quoting A388 (Thread starter):
South America has one of the few growing economies nowadays with several countries with good potential (Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Peru come to mind). Why would Sky Team not want to go for those markets (if this is true of course)?

Again, the problem is the shortage of suitable alliance members.


Not at all! There are many airlines is South America that are not part of any alliance. Aires and P5 in Colombia, TAME in Ecuador, Sky Airline and Aerolínea Principal in Chile, AZUL and GOL in Brazil. Along with Star Perú and Peruvian Air Lines S.A. in Perú. Plus, Sol Líneas Aéreas of Argentina and PLUNA Líneas Aéreas Uruguayas S.A.


User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3105 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7584 times:

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 4):
That's inaccurate. They have a presence via DL, AF, KL, and KE. It just isn't as large as oneworld's or Star's coverage, and it isn't useful at all for travel within South America.

I would call that "service to", but not "coverage". "Coverage" implies service not just to, but also within, S. America.



Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7543 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 6):
P5 in Colombia, TAME in Ecuador, Sky Airline and Aerolínea Principal in Chile, AZUL and GOL in Brazil. Along with Star Perú and Peruvian Air Lines S.A. in Perú. Plus, Sol Líneas Aéreas of Argentina and PLUNA Líneas Aéreas Uruguayas S.A.

P5 is linked to CM, Sol, Pluna, Star Peru are too small to be interesting (however AR wouldn't be bad, if they get their act together). Gol is courted by both Sky and Oneworld, however they don't seem to bother to choose.


User currently offlineaddd From United States of America, joined May 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7501 times:

In reality, though, GOL, Avianca and AR are the only three airlines that can be bring any meaningful traffic to Sky Team and provide it with a South American hub and at least somewhat decent intra-SA coverage.

User currently offlinePacNWJet From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 980 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7491 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 8):
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 6):
P5 in Colombia, TAME in Ecuador, Sky Airline and Aerolínea Principal in Chile, AZUL and GOL in Brazil. Along with Star Perú and Peruvian Air Lines S.A. in Perú. Plus, Sol Líneas Aéreas of Argentina and PLUNA Líneas Aéreas Uruguayas S.A.

P5 is linked to CM, Sol, Pluna, Star Peru are too small to be interesting (however AR wouldn't be bad, if they get their act together). Gol is courted by both Sky and Oneworld, however they don't seem to bother to choose.

  

Of course there are airlines in South America that are not currently part of an alliance, but as LJ correctly observes, the question is how suitable or desirable they are from Sky Team's perspective. Some of the smaller airlines don't provide wide enough coverage while others have financial or operational obstacles to membership in an alliance. Sky Team could move in as a sort of hero and try to actively prepare a South American airline for membership, but that would take a great deal of time, money and other resources, and institutional support.


User currently offlinehardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7467 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 3):
That is what I mean as well. Sky Team has very little to no coverage in South America. GOL is some agreement with KL but that's it

GOL has an ample agreement with AF and KL providing a good coverage of the Brazilian market via codeshare. GOL has a good slice of the Brazilian market and would become a critical partner of Skyteam. The problem is that GOL also has an agreement with AA and IB...GOL could well end up with OW.

Quoting LJ (Reply 8):
Gol is courted by both Sky and Oneworld, however they don't seem to bother to choose.

GOL is still making up their mind, probably it will come once GOL decides for wide body order and long haul expansion.

In the Brazilian market there is also Azul, Webjet and Avianca Brasil providing opportunities.

Rgs,


User currently offlineaddd From United States of America, joined May 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7425 times:

Quoting hardiwv (Reply 11):
In the Brazilian market there is also Azul, Webjet and Avianca Brasil providing opportunities

   


User currently onlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8626 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7404 times:
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Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 4):
Sky Team has very little to no coverage in South America.

That's inaccurate. They have a presence via DL, AF, KL, and KE

I wouldn't say it was inaccurate - you are talking about coverage to South America , and I don't think anyone is claiming that Skyteam are weak to South America , A388 was talking about coverage in South America , a completely different matter .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7355 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 8):
Sol, Pluna, Star Peru are too small to be interesting

PLUNA is growing thanks to its new business model and CRJs, plus the new terminal at MVD. Star Perú will continue to grow, similar to Sky Airline in Chile. The larger they get, the more valuable they become, e.g. AV has had a long interest in Sky Airline.

Quoting PacNWJet (Reply 10):
Sky Team could move in as a sort of hero and try to actively prepare a South American airline for membership, but that would take a great deal of time, money and other resources, and institutional support.

Then they will end up loosing out in the end. BOG may indeed become a OneWorld hub within 5 years, e.g. LAN Colombia is acquiring a "paper airline".


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 10006 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7251 times:

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 4):
That's inaccurate. They have a presence via DL, AF, KL, and KE. It just isn't as large as oneworld's or Star's coverage, and it isn't useful at all for travel within South America.

After reading the other replies on this post, my point was valid. Sky Team doesn't have a presence in South America.

A388


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6752 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

G3 is right now the best option for SkyTeam is South America. First because it covers the three largest markets (GRU, GIG, EZE), fly to 7 out of the 8 biggest (GRU, GIG, EZE, BOG, CCS, BSB and SCL, not fly to LIM) and could be a good link.

AR is too much to the South, PU is not so big, TA is one airline that would match very well if come together with G3

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 4):
That's inaccurate. They have a presence via DL, AF, KL, and KE. It just isn't as large as oneworld's or Star's coverage, and it isn't useful at all for travel within South America.

Yes but it's a coverage to big markets, not to secondary ones.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlinevin2basketball From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6602 times:

GOL and AR are possibilities

User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4615 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6465 times:

Quoting A388 (Thread starter):
Now AV and TA are rumored to be interested in the Star Alliance as well

Absolutely.




.

Quoting A388 (Thread starter):
Are they secretly in discussion with AV or TA to join them?

I don't think so.
Here's an attachment of good reading that demonstrates that Star Alliance is the most feasible objective for them:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-honeymoon-with-star-alliance.html




.

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 4):
Quoting A388 (Reply 3):
Sky Team has very little to no coverage in South America.

That's inaccurate. They have a presence via DL, AF, KL, and KE.

AM which is part of SkyTeam offers some direct flights to South America out of Mexico: Sao Paulo, Lima, Bogota [opening soon], Santiago and Buenos Aires.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4964 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 18):
AM which is part of SkyTeam offers some direct flights to South America out of Mexico: Sao Paulo, Lima, Bogota [opening soon], Santiago and Buenos Aires.

But all of them, AM, DL, AF, KL, KE and UX (not mentioned before), just fly to the big markets: Sao Paulo (5), Buenos Aires (5), Bogota (3 soon 4), Lima (3), Rio de Janeiro (2), Caracas (3), Santiago (3) plus Quito, Manaus, Fortaleza, Salvador, Brasilia (the four three not daily).



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3105 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4903 times:

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 18):
AM which is part of SkyTeam offers some direct flights to South America out of Mexico: Sao Paulo, Lima, Bogota [opening soon], Santiago and Buenos Aires.

Once again, that's service TO S. America, not WITHIN S. America, or to secondary markets. Seems Skyteam (or at least DL on its own) should be able to get a partner down there who can provide more travel options beyond just gateway cities in return for access for S. American customers to DL's extensive US (and beyond) network.



Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4615 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4519 times:

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 20):
that's service TO S. America, not WITHIN S. America, or to secondary markets.

Point taken.
As a resemblance, we must take into account that Star Alliance experienced a lack of coverage within South America since the withdrawal of VARIG of such commercial association.
Due to the recent entrance of TAM into the mentioned global group, its participation has been resumed once again in South America.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlinePacNWJet From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 980 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3877 times:

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 20):
Seems Skyteam (or at least DL on its own) should be able to get a partner down there who can provide more travel options beyond just gateway cities in return for access for S. American customers to DL's extensive US (and beyond) network.

Assuming you are correct that this is a critical need for Sky Team (or Delta on its own), what do you think accounts for the incompetence Sky Team and/or Delta has displayed in undertaking this priority?


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3223 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting PacNWJet (Reply 22):
Assuming you are correct that this is a critical need for Sky Team (or Delta on its own), what do you think accounts for the incompetence Sky Team and/or Delta has displayed in undertaking this priority?

I don't see as DL or any other airline responsible for that. The question is that the SkyTeam hubs in Europe and United States are not the ones that Spanish and Portuguese speaker countries are looking for due economic and language ties.

It's clear to see that Latin America/South American looks more to LIS/MAD, JFK/MIA, so airlines will look for their best chances to obtain profits, not to just be a competitor of others.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 10006 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3027 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23):
I don't see as DL or any other airline responsible for that. The question is that the SkyTeam hubs in Europe and United States are not the ones that Spanish and Portuguese speaker countries are looking for due economic and language ties.

What makes all the other alliances so different? They also started with the same language barriers with hubs in Europe and the U.S. Alliances are meant to offer worldwide connections to its customers, definately not only the Spanish/Portuguese speaking populations. Why is ATL not a viable option if the connections can be offered at competitive and convenient prices? You have to start somewhere as an alliance...

A388


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