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Airbus And Embraer May Join To Fight Cseries.  
User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 39949 times:

As expected Airbus examines options to fight off the CSeries below 150 seats.

http://www.lesaffaires.com/secteurs-...our-concurrencer-bombardier/515631

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 39903 times:

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
As expected Airbus examines options to fight off the CSeries below 150 seats.

Using Google translation, what I understand is that Airbus plans to team up with Embraer to take on BBD's CRJ series and Q series. That would certainly impact CS100 but not the CS300.


User currently onlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 39822 times:

The 90-120 seat market segment seems to be getting flooded with competition, especuially in the asian sector, which has sypically been some of the most lucrative.

I am wondering if we are beging to see the "Kia age" of aircraft and if A and B should just stick towards the higher end and larger models? If this is true, I suspect we will see the low-end on the 737 replacement line be much higher than it is today say 135-150 seats vs 110-115 seats.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineMrFord From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 141 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 39765 times:

Translation:

The European aeronautical group EADS is looking to team up with Embraer to launch a new regional jet, a market that Bombardier dominates.

"We're very interested to create an alliance with Embraer", said EADS director, Louis Gallois during the Berlin Air Show.

"We know that the duopoly (in the medium-range jet market) is coming to an end", explained Louis Gallois. "China with the C919 and Canada with the CSeries are direct competitors of Boeing and EADS".

In reaction to this new competition, EADS could offer to ATR to join forces with ATR to launch a new regional plane.

Les Echos indicated that EADS would like to launch a 90 seats regional propeller. Such a plane would be a direct competitor to the Q-400 and CRJ900.

The newspaper adds that Embraer particularly wishes to establish a longer term relationship with Airbus, an EADS company, regarding the A320 replacement.

Louis Gallois also stated that he expected an intense competition with Boeing regarding the US tanker bid, and that 20 A380 should be delivered by the end of the year.



"For radar identification throw your jumpseat rider out the window."
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 39695 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 2):
If this is true, I suspect we will see the low-end on the 737 replacement line be much higher than it is today say 135-150 seats vs 110-115 seats.

IIRC, Airbus has already announced that there will be no A318 replacement. Looks like Airbus is taking BBD C Series threat very seriously.

With a 5-abreast platform, CS300(130-140 seats) is in the sweet spot, and will turn out to be its best seller. CS300 is even more attractive for a 2 class operator than a B73G/A319.


User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 39585 times:

Probably the sharklets / new engines work best for the A320, A321 and maybe a stretch.

Making the A318 and A319 competitive as well with the CS300 and maybe CS500 (as Airbus also expects will be next) seems a mission impossible.

I think this Airbus news (finally) confirms this. The reporter links it to turboprops (ATR), but that a different story. Maybe Embraer can join the new 90-100 prop ATR works on, the "-900"

Embraers E series will likely be upgraded with the NG56, the A320 /321 with the LeapX/GTF. Inbetween there is a mutual interest.

Embraer stopping the E195X development a few months ago already was a sign of things to come. I wondered who would bite first, Boeing or Airbus.

2010: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...general_aviation/read.main/4729494
2008: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...general_aviation/read.main/4202024
2007: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...general_aviation/read.main/3453742
2006: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...general_aviation/read.main/2927184

Personally I would not be surprized if Boeing already send flowers to Bombardier..
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10780...rtner-analyst.html?cm_ven=GOOGLEFI

[Edited 2010-06-11 10:38:43]

User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21414 posts, RR: 60
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 39405 times:

I expect Boeing to do the same thing with a Japanese company.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 39368 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 6):
I expect Boeing to do the same thing with a Japanese company.

MHI?


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 39336 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 5):
Personally I would not be surprized if Boeing already send flowers to Bombardier..
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10780...GLEFI

From the linked article above:
Theoretically, a partnership with Boeing "would [likely] preclude Bombardier from going above 150 seats," said analyst Scott Hamilton of Leeham Co. Additionally, Boeing could assist Bombardier in its sales effort for its C-Series 100-seaters, said Hamilton, who also suggested that a partnership might raise antitrust issues.

Comments:
If the above partnership materialises, then perhaps Boeing could drop the B73G size for its B797(737 replacement) program. B797 could be optimised for the B739 size, and the largest aircraft in the new platform would be the size of B752, and the smallest the size of B738.


User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 38955 times:

A few weaks ago it became clear Airbus too expects Bombardier to further stretch its CS300.

Williams says that Airbus "must not be complacent and sit back" assuming Bombardier is "just going to attack" smaller A320 variants.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...o-crush-cseries-with-a320-neo.html



Such an aircraft could provide 150 seats in two classes easily, and that's the narrowbody markets sweetspot, as shown in this Rolls Royce slide.



Airbus and Boeing for years have been testing the water for a split narrowbody replacement solution. Last year Delta Airlines talked to Embraer about a 130- to 140-seat airliner that could offer equivalent per seat operating economics to its larger mainline narrowbodies.
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/258896/

IMO it could put Embraer in a good position to also claim a share in other future EADS projects such as a bigger A320 replacement and /or the bigger turboprop ATR is developping. For Airbus it increases dollar content.

[Edited 2010-06-11 12:51:56]

User currently offlineWAC From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 38888 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Am not so sure about an ATR link with EADS.....Finemeccanica, own 50% and as substantial interest not to be part of EADS in any sense apart from a supplier. It is an investor in suchoi sj100 and has a ton of contract with boeing...
I could see EADS and embraer merging....


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4675 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 38816 times:

The notion of ATR and Embraer joining forces to produce a new turboprop seems rather strange to me, since Embraer has recently ruled out a new turboprop, saying the market is too small...  

IMHO this statement of Mr. Gallois is wishful thinking more than anything else.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3038 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 38461 times:

Quoting WAC (Reply 10):
I could see EADS and embraer merging

Or more likely starting a separate entity for JV projects a la> IAE.



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12406 posts, RR: 100
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 36069 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 12):
Or more likely starting a separate entity for JV projects a la> IAE.

Good analogy.

I'm amused. In most threads I'm defending the C-series chance to gain enough sales for market traction... so the thread title here seems a bit... over-dramatic.  

But this seems to be for a turboprop. I personally think there is an opportunity there for a new turboprop.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 36003 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
But this seems to be for a turboprop.

It seems to be aimed at the NB segment. (Although some say the CSeries is a regional.)

"We are discussing with the third world airplanes builder, and we are nervous to create a partnership with Embraer", not unveiling further details about talks, but adding "We are conscious to be arrived at the end of the duopoly -referring to its subsidiary Airbus and to American Boeing, and in this case to the medium range airplanes- China with Comac C-919 aircraft and Canada -read Bombardier- with C series are the direct competitors".

http://www.avionews.com/index.php?co...1118123&pagina_chiamante=index.php

I don't see Airbus focussing on regional props, its not their market.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 35923 times:

Quoting MrFord (Reply 3):
The European aeronautical group EADS is looking to team up with Embraer to launch a new regional jet, a market that Bombardier dominates.

Keep in mind, The CSeries as how I understand it, is not exactly a regional aircraft. It is a mainline type airplane. It is very similar to the size of an A319/73G. Someone posted the dimensions/comparisons between the CSeries and the A319 in one of the Frontier threads. I think that is in # 3.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1215 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 35843 times:

I see this as a prolonged step of what's been happening between Europe and Brazil over the last couple of years. Since Lula became president the relationship between Brazil and the EU have become one of the strongest the EU has.
The deals signed and the joint political positions have been many. Its a warm relationship and Brazil has become a valued and close partner to most European governments and primarily to the two major powers, France and Germany, rather than just an export destination.
Lets not forget that Lula himself spent his early years organising labour at a European company using money given from primarily Swedish trade unions.

Brazil's armed forces have chosen European products left right and centre and the latest aircraft order is likely to end up with the French.
New trade-agreements, regulatory cooperation in many sectors including the latest deal in aviation, open skies.
The alignment between EADS and Embraer is just another step in this consolidation. This is what politicians want and like to see in my opinion and to both Embraer and EADS keeping politicians happy is important.

Also the dollar sector is a yes and no a lot of the deals with Brazil are not done in US dollars. The Brazilians have been smart and have been paid in Euros over the last 5, 6 years. A strategy they have earnt a lot from.
With the ratio between the dollar and the Euro soon getting back to normal levels I don't think currency will be a major issue for much longer. What we saw with 1.4, 1.5 was an extreme situation and I don't see many politicians or businesses expecting it to return.

But Embraer and EADS is a natural fit in this consolidation. Embraer gets a foot into the larger market and EADS gets a competent partner with a lower costbase in a nation where they have a special relationship.

As some one said it feels as natural as it does for Boeing to look towards Japan for its relationship.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7026 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 35454 times:

Quoting MrFord (Reply 3):
The newspaper adds that Embraer particularly wishes to establish a longer term relationship with Airbus, an EADS company, regarding the A320 replacement.

I see two production lines for the A320 replacement on either being in Hamburg or Toulouse the second in Brazil.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 34947 times:

Why would Embraer want to join forces with Airbus or Boeing?
Is there really a business case for the large OEMs to cover the whole market from 70-700 seats? Why not leave some segments to niche players?
Why would Airbus or Boeing want to "fight off" anyone who is a niche player in a segment that allegedly is low margin?
And why on earth is EADS still tinkering with ATR? Why not transfer all ATR resource to Airbus to accelerate engineering and manufacturing of products that allegedly have a higher margin?


User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 34882 times:

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 18):
Why would Embraer want to join forces with Airbus or Boeing?

Use your imagination, a product on top the E series, 15% in the A320 successor?

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 18):
Why would Airbus or Boeing want to "fight off" anyone who is a niche player in a segment that allegedly is low margin?

The 100-150 seat market is not a niche & Airbus has been there for 20 yrs.


User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7026 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 33888 times:

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 18):
Why not transfer all ATR resource to Airbus to accelerate engineering and manufacturing of products that allegedly have a higher margin?

Because ATR is a cooperation between France and Italy (Alenia), Alenia is not an Airbus partner.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5318 posts, RR: 30
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 33627 times:

While some may doubt the innovations that the CSeries bring to the table, one thing it has done is throw a monkey wrench into every one else's plans. Airbus, Boeing and Emb have all mentioned the CSeries as being a reason for pushing up plans to modernize their current lineup.

If nothing else, the CSeries has been a kick in the pants to the rest of the industry. Whether or not it succeeds doesn't take away from its impact.



What the...?
User currently offlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1317 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 33138 times:

Is it just me, or does an Airbus + Embraer link up to combat the CSeries seem a little late? The CSeries, barring any delays, is due to EIS in a couple of years. Have A and B left it too long to attempt a clean sheet competitor? Or, due to the anaemic sales of the CSeries, will an A + E offering prove irresistible to airlines, who would then be happy to wait to see what they come up with?

User currently offlinecm767 From Panama, joined Dec 2004, 649 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 32799 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 2):
The 90-120 seat market segment seems to be getting flooded with competition, especuially in the asian sector, which has sypically been some of the most lucrative.

I am wondering if we are beging to see the "Kia age" of aircraft and if A and B should just stick towards the higher end and larger models? If this is true, I suspect we will see the low-end on the 737 replacement line be much higher than it is today say 135-150 seats vs 110-115 seats.



I disagree with you that both A and B should abandon the 110-130 market, and since you mention KIA, look at the state of the American automotive industry, they abandon small efficient cars for bigger and the result has not been good. The market for bigger is there; for smaller could be bigger and could grow even more.

For a long time I have believed that Embraer was a jewel and Boeing should have move and made a proposal for partnership, and the 737 replacement should have two fuselages with cockpit commonality as the 757 and 767, Embraer should have build the smaller version and Boeing the bigger one.

If this works for Airbus will be a huge blow for Boeing.



But The Best Thing God Has Created Is A New Day
User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 32763 times:

Agree with Joecanuck. Its seems the CSeries has been dismissed by everyone but Airbus and Boeing  

25 Rheinbote : Good point. But is it an obstacle? EADS could just sell off its share and concentrate on core business. The 100-150 seat market is yet to be establis
26 Post contains images keesje : I do not agree. 737-300, 737-500, 737-600, 737-700, F100, ARJ, Superjet, MD80, MD87, BAE146, DC9, B717. A stretched Cseries as Airbus expects would d
27 Post contains links LAXDESI : Well put. Airbus A320 NEO with GTF ‘still can’t beat the CSeries’: Bombardier http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...f-still-cant-beat-the-cser
28 Rheinbote : Ah...and that would differ from the CSeries in what? 737-500, 737-600, F100, ARJ, Superjet, B717, BAe146...none of them is a 150 seater. That's why i
29 XT6Wagon : Where the CS300 fails isn't its operating economics. Its the too short range, and too low payload. A319 still gives the CS300 a royal smackdown in th
30 Post contains images keesje : and that's what makes Airbus and Boeing (finally) creative. A CS500 based on the CS300ER will probably be shorter ranged but still be able to do 2000
31 Post contains images mariner : Compared with orders for the A300 before (and even after) EIS, the C Series looks positively healthy. mariner
32 AirframeAS : You forgot the A318 & A319.
33 XT6Wagon : The first versions of the A300 were frankly useless garbage. However for a first effort they were not out of line for the times as many if not most A
34 Post contains links LAXDESI : I don't have a direct comparison of CS300 to A319NEO, but I did one for B737 in the following thread. The numbers below are not updated for the curre
35 mariner : The point is only that it took time - it took time for Airbus to bust into the market in any serious way and they had not achieved this by EIS, nor f
36 timboflier215 : Whilst that is true, Airbus did have a lot of government backing, meaning that they could afford to take time to enter the market. They had also mana
37 mariner : I think so, but I could easily be wrong. And i'm puzzled - I don't see Boeing or Airbus rushing to defend the turf? I guess it is damning the C Serie
38 timboflier215 : I think that the news Airbus wants to partner Embraer shows they take the threat of the CSeries seriously. With both A and B looking at either hangin
39 Post contains images A342 : Which is why they are still flying around as freighters?
40 mariner : That may be true, but at the moment it is just talk - I haven't seen an aircraft announced.. Then I have to wonder why the CEO of Republic ordered th
41 timboflier215 : Absolutely agree with you, hence I said: Me neither, and I am not writing it off. I really do hope it's a massive success; anything which makes our s
42 XT6Wagon : Perhaps you should educate yourself on the A300's evolution. The A300-B2 200 has a 1850nm range. The A300-B2 100 had 5 tons less MTOW and a range bar
43 columba : The pilots of the DHL A300 that has been hit by a missle over Baghdad will qiute disagree with you.......
44 XT6Wagon : Nevermind that the DHL you are talking about is a B4-200 model, which as I stated was much improved over the B2 models which are garbage. Thanks for
45 Post contains links and images A342 : I have done so very much, thank you. According to your logic, a 737 would be crap compared to a 777, because it has less range. FYI, it was DESIGNED
46 Breiz : Which part of a 50-50 joint venture you do not understand?
47 Tangowhisky : Good post. One of the challenges I see with the CSeries is that Bombardier used 1990's approach in building their partnerships for the CSeries. They
48 mrocktor : The only thing Embraer needs to make a 737/A32X class narrowbody is money. An alliance with Airbus does not make any sense (specifically, integrating
49 keesje : If a new combined aircraft (likely 5 abreast) and optimized for 120-150 seats has a standard A320 cockpit & flight characteristics that would be a
50 Tangowhisky : mrocktor, yes indeed Embraer can make the plane should they come up with the cash, but would they do it on their own considering the number of players
51 Wingscrubber : Don't forget MC-21 irkut and the Mitsubishi RJ, not to mention Indias recent announcement of intent to develop a q400/atr42-killing turboprop. Mergers
52 Post contains images Tangowhisky : Wingscrubber, yes indeed the Europeans and Brazilians can make beautiful babies together, But for the turboprop market, I don't have the data, and per
53 mrocktor : There are only two players in this market segment.
54 Post contains links A342 : I think you might have to revise your perception: "Regional airframers suffer another sluggish quarter " http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ffer-
55 Tangowhisky : I don't thinks so. Even big orders such as Jazz BBDs Q order is to slowly replace their aging Dash 8 fleet. Overall the turboprop market of about 100
56 Post contains images A342 : You need to look beyond North America and Europe. Africa and especially Asia are very much growth markets for turboprops. It's no surprise that India
57 connies4ever : Jazz's Q400 order is to start replacing their CRJ100/200 fleet, not the Dash-8 100s. These will be refurbed and BBD are developing a program to exten
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