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CSeries Design To Be Frozen Next Month  
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4715 times:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...eze-cseries-design-next-month.html
Quote:
Bombardier has already taken the C Series aluminium-lithium fuselage demonstrator to 60,000 cycles, the equivalent of one lifetime. "It has gone quite well, with very few discoveries. Just what you might imagine, a few cracks on some insignificant parts, such as clips and brackets, so it really has proved out our initial design and given us an opportunity to pull some weight out of the airplane, which is always one of our objectives."

Comments:
It will conduct wing load test on the demonstrator next month. However, It is planning not to go for a wing break test. Instead, it will continue to look for weight reduction in the wing.

10 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineaviationbuff From India, joined Mar 2008, 1425 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4273 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
Bombardier has already taken the C Series aluminium-lithium fuselage demonstrator to 60,000 cycles, the equivalent of one lifetime.

They have a good aircraft but they need orders.

Recently there were murmurs that QR is in serious discussion with Bombardier; any updates.


User currently offlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1342 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4175 times:

Quoting aviationbuff (Reply 1):
They have a good aircraft but they need orders.

I think airlines will wait to see what A and B come up with, in terms of a redesign or re-engine or their NB offerings. They will also want to wait until some hard numbers are known about the CSeries. While I wish it every success, it does seem to me as though BBD are pinning their hopes on P&W, and their GTF, to make the economics on this a/c right. The actual a/c itself doesn't seem to have any ground breaking technologies in it.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5477 posts, RR: 30
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4132 times:

Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 2):
The actual a/c itself doesn't seem to have any ground breaking technologies in it.

From the stories out yesterday in Flight Global, BBD is making very optimistic sounds about their composite wing and Al-Li fuse.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ding-cseries-wing-to-ultimate.html

Quote:
The carbonfibre wing already meets Bombardier's weight objectives but he adds it has been performing so well in testing, "there could be opportunities for further weight reductions".
Quote:
Scott says the aluminium-lithium test barrel "has exceeded our expectations and this allows us to make improvements to reduce the weight".

Of course every manufacturer makes optimistic noises right up until they announce delays. While not the first to the game, there aren't exactly a plethora of planes with cfrp wings and al-li fuselages.

This is has become a very interesting time to be an aircraft enthusiast.



What the...?
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3862 times:

Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 2):
The actual a/c itself doesn't seem to have any ground breaking technologies in it.

It does have the advantage of 5-abreast platform, which is the most optimal one for 110-140 seat single class category.

Airbus A320 NEO with GTF ‘still can’t beat the CSeries’: Bombardier
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...f-still-cant-beat-the-cseries.html

Quotes:
A re-engined Airbus narrowbody "still can't beat the CSeries" even if the European airframer picks the same Pratt & Whitney geared turbofan (GTF) technology for re-engining, a top Bombardier executive said today.

Bombardier Commercial Aircraft vice president, marketing Philippe Poutissou notes that the GTF "is only a piece of the optimised design" of the CSeries, "which includes an airframe specifically designed for the 100- to 150-seat market".

"Our wing, engine and landing gear combo is optimised to get maximum benefit of ultra-high bypass of the engine," he says. In order to take full advantage of that 12:1 bypass ratio, "you need to design the wing, the wing mounting structure and you need to give yourself a clean sheet design".

Boehm also points out that Airbus appears to be focused on re-engining "larger aircraft, such as the A320 and A321", which do not compete with the 110/130-seat CSeries.

Comments:
My calculations suggest that A319 NEO may be competitive, but is not likely to beat CS300. Perhaps an all new design will get closer to CS300. I suspect all new designs by A&B will start at B738/A320 size, and the likely CS500 will be smaller than the current B738/A320.


User currently offlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1342 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3770 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 4):
It does have the advantage of 5-abreast platform, which is the most optimal one for 110-140 seat single class category.

Very true. Don't get me wrong, I hope the CSeries is a huge success, and I believe it will be an extremely capable plane. It has a mountain to climb, and I have my reservations as to whether it is revolutionary enough....


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3757 times:

Quoting aviationbuff (Reply 1):
They have a good aircraft but they need orders.

   They have a good sized order from RAH so far. RAH shocked the industry by ordering this type.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3710 times:

Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 5):
I hope the CSeries is a huge success, and I believe it will be an extremely capable plane.

Keesje has shown that it is possible to configure C Series as 6-abreast in economy.. Perhaps Air Asia(or another Asian LCC) may explore that possibility.

BBD will have a large portion of the 110-140(150?) NB market to itself unless A, B, or E were to offer an all new 5-abreast platform.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13437 posts, RR: 100
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3473 times:
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Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
Bombardier has already taken the C Series aluminium-lithium fuselage demonstrator to 60,000 cycles, the equivalent of one lifetime.

Not a bad number of cycles. More than the A23X's 49,000, less than the 737NG's 75,000. (Late cycles have a low present value for the sales of a new airframe, but they still add value by improving the residual value of the airframe.)

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
it will continue to look for weight reduction in the wing

If the wing is meeting targets and can have weight pulled, that would really help the C-series. There isn't much time before the design freeze for significant (multi-ton) weight reduction. (That requires a configuration change that is unlikely to happen now). Weight can be reduced, but we're talking hundreds of pounds (maybe up to one ton, probably less).

In my opinion, sales for the C-series would improve dramatically with further weight reduction. So while as an enthusiast I hope to see significant weight reduction in the C-series, as an engineer I suspect it is unlikely the airframe weight will be significantly below promise weight at EIS. At least my 'rumor mill' thinks the plane has a good chance of making target weight... and beating promised fuel burn.  
Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
a few cracks on some insignificant parts

???? If the parts are easy to inspect/replace that is 'insignificant. Otherwise, this could limit the maximum number of C-series cycles. So 'insignificant' isn't the word I would use. Note: I think the C-series is fine for 60,000 cycles, but if parts are cracking, they will have to be inspected at D-checks (not the 1st D-check perhaps, but the 2nd or 3rd as frames approach 60,000 cycles). It also implies that a greater life was not engineered in.   (I had hopes for 70,000 or even 75,000 cycles for the c-series). Certifying for my cycles is still possible, but the economics of doing so in service is going to depend on how easy it is to R&R these 'insignificant' parts and the life remaining on neighboring parts.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 7):
Keesje has shown that it is possible to configure C Series as 6-abreast in economy.. Perhaps Air Asia(or another Asian LCC) may explore that possibility.

The C-series would have to be utilized in a shorter range market (Europe not Asia) at that heavy of a payload (unless the C100 was loaded to the gills as a very low CASM 150 seater).

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 7):
Keesje has shown that it is possible to configure C Series as 6-abreast in economy.. Perhaps Air Asia(or another Asian LCC) may explore that possibility.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3322 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
Not a bad number of cycles. More than the A23X's 49,000, less than the 737NG's 75,000. (Late cycles have a low present value for the sales of a new airframe, but they still add value by improving the residual value of the airframe.)

I didn't know that such a large difference existed between A320 and B737NG.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
At least my 'rumor mill' thinks the plane has a good chance of making target weight... and beating promised fuel burn.

That suggests BBD was being conservative on fuel burn given the uncertainty on weight. It will be nice to see them beat promised fuel burn at EIS.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
The C-series would have to be utilized in a shorter range market (Europe not Asia) at that heavy of a payload (unless the C100 was loaded to the gills as a very low CASM 150 seater).

Perhaps Ryan Air then. Indian LCCs may have interest in a 6-abreast C series for both intra-India and India-SE Asia/ME markets where range is not likely to be an issue.


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3004 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 4):
Airbus A320 NEO with GTF ‘still can’t beat the CSeries’: Bombardier

One analyst thinks Boeing is unlikely to go for re-engining the 737. So an all new B737 by 2020 and an all new A320 by 2022-2027?
http://business.financialpost.com/20...o-compete-with-bombardier-cseries/

Quote:
“The tone from management towards re-engining seemed less positive, noting that much of the fuel burn upside is offset by increased weight and additional complexity,” Ms. Azim said in a note to clients after the conference.

“In our view, it is less likely that even if Airbus re-engines, Boeing may not,” she added.


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