Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Aircraft Swap Crewing  
User currently offlineJAGflyer From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 3511 posts, RR: 4
Posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3631 times:

How is the crew swap handled when an aircraft substitute happens. Take for example something that happens quite frequently with KLM in North America. Say yesterday's flight was a 747 from Amsterdam to Toronto, the 747 has been doing the flight for the last few months. Today they swap in an 777 at the last minute. What crew takes the plane back to AMS seeing as the only crew on the ground in YYZ is the 747 crew from the previous day? I would guess a fresh crew is deadheaded to YYZ with the aircraft to bring it back while the 747's crew from the day before gets an extra day in YYZ to layover.

[Edited 2010-06-13 16:40:52]


Support the beer and soda can industry, recycle old airplanes!
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3592 times:

I cannot speak for KLM but many times, that 747 cabin crew may very well be trained on the T7 as well. Flight deck crew is obviously a different story. If there is not crew base in YYZ then they will deahhead/positive space on the next thing smoking to YYZ or fly the crew OAL to get them there.


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinerunner13 From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3479 times:

I heard that at United all cabin crew members can work any plane in the fleet. And that A319/A320 cockpit crew can fly both types, and B757/B767 pilots are type rated on both. I would imagine most other airlines would be the same.

User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4977 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 3328 times:

I know in the mid-90's, all DL aircrew crew members had to know all the aircraft types in their fleet. So this wouldn't be much of a problem.


Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2560 posts, RR: 53
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3269 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 3):
I know in the mid-90's, all DL aircrew crew members had to know all the aircraft types in their fleet. So this wouldn't be much of a problem.

If you mean flight attendants, yes, most airlines F/A's are checked out on all aircraft types. Pilots however are not - most fly just one type. And sometimes even just sub-types. DL for example has one group of pilots that flies just the 767-400, not the -300. I think they even split off the international flying on the -300 as a separate group too, keeping the domestic flying to a third 767 pilot group. For us at Hawaiian it's split easily between the three types of aircraft - 767, 717, and A330. Each pilot group flies just the one type, and has to go through an extensive training cycle if they bid onto a different aircraft.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4977 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2961 times:

Yes, I meant the cabin crew. Sorry for being misleading. I know a few DL F/A's and they said that they are tested on all the aircraft that the airline flies during recurrency training. That was awhile ago, I don't know how it's handled since the merger.


Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offline1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2887 times:

For European carriers it might pose a problem as JAR ops only permit cabin crew to work on three types, so far example a KLM F/A might be able to fly the MD-11, A330 and 747 so a swap with the 777 would mean that F/A would not be able to fly. AF has got round this with 'safety specialist' crew so a crew member who isn't trained on an aircraft can still do the service. You can tell the 'safety specalist crews' (not sure if that's the correct name) because they have an extra red badge on their uniform saying' securite-safety'

User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3741 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2809 times:

Most airlines use a 'standby' or 'reserve' system whereby a certain amount of flight deck (and cabin) crew are on call at home.

Cabin crew can be swapped from an aircraft type to another, but sometimes, if the complement is higher, they will need an extra pair of hand at short notice.
Flight deck crew can't be swapped between types, so the new crew would be called out of reserve.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26426 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2690 times:

Quoting runner13 (Reply 2):
And that A319/A320 cockpit crew can fly both types, and B757/B767 pilots are type rated on both.

That is the same at the vast majority of airlines, because those planes are on the same respective type certificates. For pilot certification purposes, the A320 Family are all the same airplane. Same with the 757 and 767, despite the fact that they are very different at first blush.

Quoting HAL (Reply 4):
And sometimes even just sub-types. DL for example has one group of pilots that flies just the 767-400, not the -300.

Yeah, DL has some terribly inefficient flight deck rules written into their contracts. This is one case where I am completely against the union's stance.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 7):

Flight deck crew can't be swapped between types, so the new crew would be called out of reserve.

Right, but the OP's point is how would they actually get the crew there.

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 6):
For European carriers it might pose a problem as JAR ops only permit cabin crew to work on three types, so far example a KLM F/A might be able to fly the MD-11, A330 and 747 so a swap with the 777 would mean that F/A would not be able to fly. AF has got round this with 'safety specialist' crew so a crew member who isn't trained on an aircraft can still do the service. You can tell the 'safety specalist crews' (not sure if that's the correct name) because they have an extra red badge on their uniform saying' securite-safety'

Wow, how ridiculously stupid. They should just allow F/As to be trained on all aircraft.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinec5load From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2632 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 1):
Flight deck crew is obviously a different story.

What are you talking about? Any crew can fly a 747 anywhere! Stick, rudder, and throttle.   



"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
User currently offlinewncrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1457 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2583 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
Wow, how ridiculously stupid. They should just allow F/As to be trained on all aircraft.

Well, to be fair to them, their thinking is that if you're trained on too many aircraft you won't perform as effectively in an emergency. Some aircraft have similar but not the SAME operating mechanisms for doors etc and if you only know a few types it's easier to keep it straight in your mind.

Take a moment to think about the DL FA's, they now have to know the DC-9, MD-80/90, A320, A319, 73G, 738, 752, 753, 763, 764, 777, 747 (I'm sure I didn't hit several types.variants)... you get the point.

Even within a type (DC-9/M80) the tailcone exit operation can vary a bit. Point being, that's A LOT of safety equipment locations to memorize, evacuation scenarios to consider etc. I'm not saying the DL crews aren't capable, I have a lot of respect for them, but you could certainly see that they likelihood of getting a bit turned around is much higher in this case, than in the case of being limited to knowing 3 aircraft types.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlinewncrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1457 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2564 times:

FYI,

I know at AA, FA's are not cross-trained on the entire fleet. I recently flew on a 757 with a crew and the #3 was only qualified on the 757 & M80... seems inefficient to me, you can't just put people where you need them.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlinec5load From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2542 times:

Quoting wncrew (Reply 10):
Even within a type (DC-9/M80) the tailcone exit operation can vary a bit. Point being, that's A LOT of safety equipment locations to memorize, evacuation scenarios to consider etc.

Very true. But the principle remains the same no matter what kind of aircraft you are on. If there is a fire, you're gonna open the emergency exit and pop the slides on the side that is not burning. You're gonna do that if you are on a DC-9 or a 767.

And IIRC, emergency equipment is typically located in the same general areas of a plane, no matter what size. Obviously, the bigger the a/c the more equipment it's going to have, but if there are fire extinguishers in the front and back of a DC-9, then I'm pretty sure they are also in the front and back (and probably middle) of a 777.



"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
User currently offlinewncrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1457 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2512 times:

Quoting c5load (Reply 12):
But the principle remains the same no matter what kind of aircraft you are on. If there is a fire, you're gonna open the emergency exit and pop the slides on the side that is not burning. You're gonna do that if you are on a DC-9 or a 767.

Yes....but there's more to the job than that. If you're having to know the operation of say 11 aircraft types it's a lot to know. Let's look at the MD11 / 767, both doors operate similarly, but NOT identically. Or, the 737, 757....and then there's the M80 door which is backwards from the 737/757 doors...

Equipment, yes, it can be located in the same "general" area, but not the SAME. Even at WN, on some aircraft the Megaphone is on the FWD Right OHB, and on some it's in the FWD windscreen, and some it's in the FWD Galley-2. and those are all 737's. Also there's differences in Emergency Lighting systems and how to activate them, Evac Alarms, Interphone operation, Evacuation commands, Exit Assignments, Evacuation Stations. I have worked on various aircraft and can attest to the fact that an evacuation on one type can be worlds apart from an evacuation on another. It's a lot to know.

There have been accidents/incidents where FA's were confused, (fatigue contributed) and/ or forgot... or there was an AC swap during the day and it was their last leg because of a MX issue.. an incident occurs things don't go as smoothly as they should. In their mind they're on the 767 they started out their day on, and in reality they're on the DC10... they go to open the door and... while similar it's not the same.

There is a valid argument for the limitation in type qualifications, I certainly see the point of keeping it limited.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3000 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2494 times:

Quoting wncrew (Reply 13):
I have worked on various aircraft and can attest to the fact that an evacuation on one type can be worlds apart from an evacuation on another. It's a lot to know.



You are absolutely correct. Look at the trouble AA had when they acquired TW. Both had MD-80's but were configured completely differently. It was quite some period of time until both work groups were cross qualified and longer yet before the TW aircraft were changed to AA interiors.

Okie


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2445 times:

I would suggest that it is self evident that the 777 would not be flying to YYZ unless prior arrangements had been made for return cockpit crew. The flight would have been cancelled. If the 747 F/As aren't certified for 777s then they would be handled in a similar way.

I am presuming that KL never flies a 777 to YYZ. One possibility would be if YUL (for example) is served by KL with a 777, that a 777 cockpit crew which is resting there has its rest period shortenned and is flown to YYZ on any available flight to operate the 777 on the return leg. Then the outbound crew would deadhead to YUL and fly back a 777 to AMS. Several other crews would need their upline rests shortenned.

A more likely possibility is that the 777 crew deadheaded over on the previous day's flight, although that would require over 24 hours notice.

I would doubt the 777 remaining on the ground at YYZ for >12 hours.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2257 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 15):
I would doubt the 777 remaining on the ground at YYZ for >12 hours.

How long do you expect the BA 777 in AMS today, which is "only" an engine exchange only a few miles away from home on a large airport that has all the facilities needed?


User currently offlinewhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 782 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2113 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
And sometimes even just sub-types. DL for example has one group of pilots that flies just the 767-400, not the -300.

Yeah, DL has some terribly inefficient flight deck rules written into their contracts. This is one case where I am completely against the union's stance.

Not really! DL crews are crossed trained on the B763 and B757-200/300. Thats a large chunk of their fleet in one pilot group. There's not limitation between international and domestic flying. A crew could fly a B757 from LAX to JFK then the next day take a B763 across the pond.


User currently offlinelapper From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 1564 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2100 times:

As far as I'm aware, Dutch rules state that cabin crew can only be certified on up to 2 types of aircraft, whereas UK rules for example are 3 types of aircraft.

User currently offlineSQ_EK_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1633 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1981 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 7):
Most airlines use a 'standby' or 'reserve' system whereby a certain amount of flight deck (and cabin) crew are on call at home.

At EK we have airport standby where we relax in the company lounge for a set period of time and get called in for last minute no shows in crew or other operational irregularities. We also have home standby where we need to be by the phone and ready for duty, also during a set period of time.

Can't really speak for other airlines, but for Emirates cabin crew are divided into two main groups, the main fleet guys (me) and the A380 guys. So the A380 cabin crew only do A380 flights while main fleet does the rest; A332/A343/A345/772/77L/773/77W with multiple differentiations in layout and cabin divide within each fleet type, especially in the 777 fleet! Within that, crew are divided into five categories, GRII is Economy Class crew (most junior), GR1 is Business Class, and FG1 is First Class. Lately there has been Business crew working Economy and First working Business due to a shortage of crew, but usually it tends to stick to those rules (Econ crew don't really work Business only because we aren't trained with those service protocols). On top of those three classes, you have the SFS and the Purser - those are the senior crew who look over cabin service and help out as well. Aircraft swaps at EK can get a bit messy, but does happen quite often.



Keep Discovering
User currently offlineMYT321 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1888 times:

Heard a tale recently, albeit third hand, of a TCX flight between Cuba and MAN. The 767 inbound from MAN had gone tech and been swapped for a 330. Of course the layover crew in Cuba for the return were the Boeing rated guys from the previous trip. Result, the returning pax were delayed 24hrs while the Bus crew got their required rest.


"The A380 is coming to MAN"
User currently offlinewhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 782 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1880 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Same thing has happened in YYC. KLM A330 replaced by a MD11 return flight delayed for crew rest. Not a big deal.

User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1753 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 16):
How long do you expect the BA 777 in AMS today, which is "only" an engine exchange

I was thinking of staying on the ground for no maintenance reason, waiting for a crew to be rested enough to fly it.


User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7247 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1745 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

When the volcano in Iceland caused all the closures in European air space and stranded crew members, FX filed special flight plans and used their corporate jets to fly into Spain with relief crews.

User currently offline1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1743 times:

There is also the rule in the UK at least that cabin crews have to fly on each of their aircraft types every three months or so to keep up their certification on the type. For example, only some of BA's LHR Worldwide Cabin Crew are certified on the 767 because the fleet is much smaller than the 777 and 747 fleets and therefore if all crews were initially trained the majority would need regular (and expensive training) to keep up their 767 certification so many of the LHR crews are only trained on the 747 and 777. I'm guessing this isn't so much of an issue in the US if cabin crews can be trained on all types in an airline as the chances they won't fly every type in this timeframe.

25 N1120A : 1) Don't they separate the international 763s and the domestic 763s? 2) The 764s could also be cross-crewed, but aren't.
26 whiteguy : No, read an article of a DL Captain operating a B763 HNL-SLC then a week later operating DTW-FRA. Its whatever they bid.
27 JAGflyer : Would a deadheading crew on the inbound 777 (to operate the return flight) need or be entitled to "rest"? I know at the regional airline I worked with
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
New Zurich To Calgary And Vancouver Service posted Wed Oct 28 2009 17:26:26 by Bakersdozen
CO And HNL Service posted Fri Sep 4 2009 20:56:20 by ADXMatt
FAT Sees Increase And Updated Service! posted Fri Jul 3 2009 17:17:52 by QXatFAT
FLL And International Service posted Mon Jun 15 2009 19:41:19 by Njdevilsin03
Aircraft Purchasing And Options posted Wed Mar 25 2009 10:47:33 by Placekicker
Updated: Aircraft Values, And Lease Pricing posted Fri Mar 13 2009 10:59:56 by LAXintl
Aircraft Skids And Hits Snowbank In Albany, NY posted Sat Dec 20 2008 13:29:24 by Phoenix9
Aircraft Windows And Weight Savings posted Thu Jun 26 2008 19:32:02 by KochamLOT
End All Meal And Beverage Service On Domestic? posted Tue Jun 3 2008 21:08:43 by Flybyguy
FWA News (9E Hangar, Kitty Hawk, And New Service?) posted Tue Mar 18 2008 13:14:15 by FWAERJ