Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
LHR..3rd Runway Really Make That Much Difference?  
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8933 times:

Is the British governments objection to a 3rd runway at LHR just political appeasing or are they just blowing smoke up everybodies ass with every intention of approving it later on ?

I don't see how LHR cannot have a 3rd runway sooner or later ?

Is it really going to make that much difference to people living under the flight path ?


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4360 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8929 times:

It makes a difference of 50% flights above you.

The Tory government is not convinced that Heathrow shall remain the center of European air space. Amsterdam and Madrid are qiting , and even FRA is building runway 3.5 .


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8808 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 1):
It makes a difference of 50% flights above you.

All those people that bought houses near the world's busiest international airport should think about the £billions in revenue the airport provides to the UK coffers and stop moaning !!

The business community is behind it. The government havn't got the balls to relocate like they did in HKG. Maybe Zac Goldsmith should think about that when he next flits off to BGI or wherever he goes on his holidays !!

Please !!

[Edited 2010-06-14 08:05:48]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8766 times:

One thing I never understood is why they didnt try to compromise on a closer in parallel? (Enough room for a runway and parallel taxiway, would be roughly 1,000-1,200 ft north of the existing north runway) Yea you doing gain much additional IFR capabilities, but overall it can still be a great contribution to the airport with significantly less land requirements.


Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8725 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 3):
but overall it can still be a great contribution to the airport with significantly less land requirements.

I really don't think it's an issue. I'm not suggesting the airport grow and grow but I think 3 runways is at least a basic need. A 3rd runway only has to be capable of handling short haul sized aircraft to free up the other two for intercontinental arrivals/departures.

You cannot be a multicultural society combined with the city that is London and have an inferior transport structure.

High speed rail links ?? The airport is already sacrificing a never ending list of domestic flights in order to serve its intercontinental demands. Much to the detriment of British Airways and Virgin Atlantic. The fact that it is the only airport in the world that supports two indigenous airlines that directly compete should be more than enough evidence.



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8675 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 4):
I really don't think it's an issue. I'm not suggesting the airport grow and grow but I think 3 runways is at least a basic need. A 3rd runway only has to be capable of handling short haul sized aircraft to free up the other two for intercontinental arrivals/departures.

Well my point was if I recall , the 3rd runway would be located 4,000 or so ft north of the current runway, resulting in significant land acquisition and new areas exposed to noise, whereas a runway located 1,000-1,200 ft north of the existing runway would have significantly reduced impacts and only a slight reduction in lost utility in comparison (Still 2x ILS approaches vs 3)



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8632 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 5):
whereas a runway located 1,000-1,200 ft north of the existing runway would have significantly reduced impacts and only a slight reduction in lost utility in comparison (Still 2x ILS approaches vs 3)

So what's the problem ? Don't tell me tell them !

By the way, sort Obama out will you !!



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8578 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 6):
So what's the problem ? Don't tell me tell them !

Thats my question, I dont recall a lesser separation being explored, why does it seem like and all or nothing deal.

Heck even a close-in 7,000 ft runway would add a lot to LHR.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8555 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 7):
Heck even a close-in 7,000 ft runway would add a lot to LHR.

I know. I don't understand it either. The U.K needs a government that will take action to placate a long term need. The trouble is that it's becoming so fractious here that I don't think it's ever going to happen.

[Edited 2010-06-14 09:10:30]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineAA1818 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 3414 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8498 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 4):
The fact that it is the only airport in the world that supports two indigenous airlines that directly compete should be more than enough evidence.

AA and UA at ORD, DL and AA at JFK. JL and NH at Tokyo. Im sure the list is longer. I don't really see your point- what does having two indigenous airlines directly competing in the same airport have to do with anything?

AA1818



God is a Trini...
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8466 times:

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 9):
AA and UA at ORD, DL and AA at JFK. JL and NH at Tokyo. Im sure the list is longer. I don't really see your point- what does having two indigenous airlines directly competing in the same airport have to do with anything?

AA1818

Name me one route from LHR that VS and BA don't directly compete on together ? AA and UA don't directly compete globally from ORD.



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8466 times:

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 9):
AA and UA at ORD, DL and AA at JFK.

Now picture those two airports having just two runways total



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8426 times:

Is it not the case that the UK sees the future of short haul travel transferred to the intended high speed railways?

Soon mainline French and German railways will be pulling into St Pancras in the heart of London. People also prefer to take a tain rather than a plane these days due to the frustrating and terrorizing security procedures at airports.

People transferring flights at a hub don't spend that much money. People transferring at LHR have to change money to Pounds to buy a coffee or visit the shops. Would you change your money to Roupees if you were merely transferring through Delhi?

Maybe the government has just woken up to the economic reality of it all.


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8392 times:

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 9):
AA and UA at ORD, DL and AA at JFK. JL and NH at Tokyo. Im sure the list is longer. I don't really see your point- what does having two indigenous airlines directly competing in the same airport have to do with anything?

Vs is 49% owned by SQ. SQ is in turn a member of the Star alliance. The Star alliance is in turn the sole owner of Britsh Midland which in turn controls 11% of slots at LHR, plus all other affiliates. What's YOUR point ??

Why the interest ?

At what other gateway does this occur please ?

[Edited 2010-06-14 09:33:24]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinedsinghdahiya257 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2010, 9 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8366 times:

Being one of the busiest airports in the world, Heathrow is dying in need of another runway.

2 runways and neither of them being 4000m+ is insufficient, especially with the large influx of A380's in the near-future.

Adding another runway will not only decrease air traffic around London, but it will promote employment in the construction, as well as this it will be a lot safer.



BooHoo...
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8362 times:

Quoting dsinghdahiya257 (Reply 14):
Adding another runway will not only decrease air traffic around London, but it will promote employment in the construction, as well as this it will be a lot safer.


  



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8314 times:

Few ordinary people see the need for a 3rd runway, but many see the negatives (destroying villages). Throw in an election campaign and a deficit and you have yourself a cancellation.

User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4614 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8252 times:

To start with get rid of the A320/737's on the peak time European inter-city flights and replace them with 280--300seaters and cut the movements by close to 50%.
My observation at LHR watching takeoffs and landings is that this sort of traffic is clogging the system. BA could over time transfer a whole lot of 767's from international routes, increase the seating density and put them on the inter-city routes. I think the government needs to kick ass at the BAA who in turn should come down on the airlines and tell them this is the way it is going to be. Allow 5-years for a transition.
As an example, LHR-CDG, AF and BA both have 10-flights a day , of these 8 could be combined down to 4 since the departure times in all but one pairing, are less than 1-hour apart. This would reduce the outbound movements from 20 to 12 a reduction of 40% and particularly important the reductions would be in the peak 7am to 10am and 4pm to 7pm time frames. Another necessity, only one under-seat sized bag as carry on to facilitate maximum loading and unloading efficiency. Any more must be checked.
They need to take a leaf out of the Japanese book on this whole matter.


User currently offlineMingToo From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2009, 464 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8201 times:

Hi All,

I've not posted on these forums before, although I've read around a little.

A thought that occurred to me on the topic of the third runway at Heathrow ....

Northolt is only around 4-5 miles north of Heathrow. From a quick look at Google Maps, it would appear to have space for a longer runway parallel to those at Heathrow to replace the existing runway. Construction of both the runway and terminal could take place without any disruption to Heathrow or the need to purchase any more land. All that would be needed would be a fast and efficient transfer system for people and luggage through a tunnel between there and the existing terminals at the main Heathrow site (perhaps with airside and non-airside trains).

It would help with traffic to and from the airport since those using the new terminal could use the M40/A40 and the tube line from Northolt into London.

So in effect, Northolt becomes a spur for Heathrow for domestic and international short-haul.

I'm not sure the residents around Northolt would be best pleased though.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8159 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 2):
All those people that bought houses near the world's busiest international airport should think about the £billions in revenue the airport provides to the UK coffers and stop moaning !!

The business community is behind it. The government havn't got the balls to relocate like they did in HKG. Maybe Zac Goldsmith should think about that when he next flits off to BGI or wherever he goes on his holidays !!

Please !!

They don't think like that, they like the price and then they move in and start complaining about the noise and the pollution and want it stopped. Happened in Etobicoke near YYZ. That is why there is a curfew now at YYZ.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineSlinky09 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 791 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8119 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 10):
Name me one route from LHR that VS and BA don't directly compete on together ? AA and UA don't directly compete globally from ORD.

Phoenix, Seattle, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Denver, Dallas, Houston (or is that LGW) ... - all BA routes that VS does not serve.

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 16):
Few ordinary people see the need for a 3rd runway, but many see the negatives (destroying villages). Throw in an election campaign and a deficit and you have yourself a cancellation.

No, few ordinary people do not, educated about aviation transport people do. Thankfully, we don't leave important decisions to uneducated people (I mean that in the sense of the word, not to imply they are dumb). That said, our politicians should be educated about important issues like this, they however have traded with the devil for the votes of the uneducated. I think that in time the Conservatives will come around. Especially since building a new airport will require massive public investment when we can't, and that LHR runway 3 would be privately funded.

Quoting MingToo (Reply 18):
Northolt is only around 4-5 miles north of Heathrow.

An interesting idea but I think, as an RAF station, it is required for other purposes, but also the runway is short and it is also landlocked limiting space for facilities.


User currently offlineLuke From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8080 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 12):
People transferring flights at a hub don't spend that much money. People transferring at LHR have to change money to Pounds to buy a coffee or visit the shops. Would you change your money to Roupees if you were merely transferring through Delhi?

Maybe the government has just woken up to the economic reality of it all.

But transferring pax support routes that wouldn't be viable on a purely O&D basis, meaning that London has better flight frequency and a wider range of destinations on offer. Both important for business travellers, re-enforcing London's position as one of the world's best cities to do business.


User currently offlineB747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 988 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8061 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 4):
Much to the detriment of British Airways and Virgin Atlantic. The fact that it is the only airport in the world that supports two indigenous airlines that directly compete should be more than enough evidence.

Not only is your comment incorrect, it makes no sense. LHR is not the only airport in the world to have two indigenous airlines competing and that fact that it does is no justification of the need for a third runway.

Quoting Slinky09 (Reply 20):
No, few ordinary people do not, educated about aviation transport people do. Thankfully, we don't leave important decisions to uneducated people (I mean that in the sense of the word, not to imply they are dumb).

People who are educated about aviation might be more likely to support a third runway. That does not mean that having a third runway is the right choice or indicate that their superior knowledge of aviation somehow equips them to make the best decision for the UK.

The decision should be make by impartial people looking at the overall transport strategy in the UK and not a bunch of people who may be biased.


Whilst there are undoubtedly benefits to having a third runway, I don't think it is a clear cut decision. The arguments against such a move are robust and formidable.


User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2809 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 7901 times:

Quoting MingToo (Reply 18):
It would help with traffic to and from the airport since those using the new terminal could use the M40/A40 and the tube line from Northolt into London.

As someone who regularly drives round Polish War Memorial, I can safely say that Northolt is in no position to be a third runway on the cheap. It would require a massive restructuring of the area to accomodate the traffic. Ruislip Gardens is a tiny tube station, which does just fine for its current market but is completely inadequate to serve a Heathrow satellite, particularly if Chiltern Turbo services were reinstated.

Quoting MingToo (Reply 18):
All that would be needed would be a fast and efficient transfer system for people and luggage through a tunnel between there and the existing terminals at the main Heathrow site (perhaps with airside and non-airside trains).

Easier said than done. 5 miles of transfer tunnels going underneath the A40, Hayes and the M4 is no small deal. It would be easier just to demolish Sipson as they originally wanted.


User currently offlineflaps30 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7500 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 2):
All those people that bought houses near the world's busiest international airport should think about the £billions in revenue the airport provides to the UK coffers and stop moaning !!

Exactly!! These are the same people who bitch and complain about everything regarding Heathrow and then wont hesitate for one second to board a flight from Heathrow to get where they need to go.



every day is a good day to fly
25 Jacobin777 : If LHR can't get another runway built, the least which can be done is have the curfew period shortened or eliminated. Those curfew laws are old and ob
26 Glom : Actually I think they're quite recent.
27 vv701 : This certainly was true but, since the LH takeover, no longer. This summer BD have 816 weekly slots at LHR or 8.6 per cent of the total of 9,513 slot
28 Scotron11 : If that was the case...yes...but we know that it's not! Even so called "high-speed" rail in UK is an embarrassment. You will always get the NIMBY's c
29 Post contains images Jacobin777 : You are correct, they were updated recently, but they are still obsolete at least.. Also, since the Cranford Agreement was a verbal agreement (at lea
30 Post contains images Wingscrubber : Thinking outside the box here - a return to seaplanes could make Southampton or Portsmouth international passenger hubs again? We just need to get sul
31 SSTsomeday : Well if they keep Heathrow hobbled with only two runways, their prophesy is certain to come true.
32 MingToo : Well I didn't say it would be cheap. Cost doesn't seem to have been the issue with the cancellation of the third runway. The issues would appear to b
33 Glom : The problem is that you start bringing Ruislip into it and that area, while maybe not Chelsea, is not poor either. The other issue is that there are
34 Burkhard : Northolt is already in very dense areas. Could Farnborough take the smaller 100 seaters?[Edited 2010-06-15 01:15:28]
35 Glom : Farnborough is even further away. Remember, we need to think about what extra capacity it is we want. Do we want capacity for access to London? In wh
36 Burkhard : Going from one terminal in Heathrow to another one is already quite a trip and take 20 mins easily. Also the new terminal in FRA will be miles away fr
37 mikey72 : Sorry I meant one route that VS operates that BA doesn't serve. I used it as an example to show just how much intercontinental traffic there is at th
38 Itsonlyme : Even though I live right under the Heathrow flight path, I have no objection to a 3rd runway or more flights on that ground. However I do not see the
39 fcogafa : Seems like an obvious idea, but there are massive repercussions... - The transport system in London shuts down around midnight so arriving passengers
40 Glom : Yeah that sucks. Why is that? It is ridiculous having to make sure I'm heading home at 11 o'clock when I'm using the train. Why can't they stay open
41 airbazar : I would usually agree with you on this topic except where they want to put the 3rd runway is not exactly near LHR. People who bought houses and who l
42 Delboy : Yes a third runway would help but the problem would then be transfered to the ground. Surface area wise, LHR isn't the largest of international airpor
43 Slinky09 : The point I was trying to make earlier is that in the current economic cllimate, this is simply impossible. Finding a private investor to work throug
44 SEPilot : Where? If you think the problem of getting over local objections for taking the necessary land to expand LHR is big, just try starting over. Denver w
45 mikey72 : Oh short-haul shmort-haul ! The fact that BA is entrenched in short haul from LHR just compounds the problem for the airline. Short-haul from LHR is
46 Post contains images Jacobin777 : You mean "serious logistic concerns".... That can be changed-i.e.-to limited services on the main lines-especially Piccadilly line. Again, some extra
47 B747-4U3 : Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 22): Not only is your comment incorrect, it makes no sense. LHR is not the only airport in the world to have two indigenous ai
48 Post contains images airbazar : Isn't that what the LHR master plan is? Whether there is a 3rd runway or not a new airport is being build from the ground up where the current one st
49 mikey72 : Spoke like a true American. Bravo !
50 airbazar : Now that IS funny. Right down to the fact that I am not American, LOL. I'm from the old continent just like you buddy.
51 bjorn14 : Since the NIMBYs have killed 3-4 runways at London airports (LHR,STN,LTN) the last couple of years. Where does that leave Brits? Are SEN, OXF, FAB an
52 Glom : There is no escaping NIMBYs, not even in death. Why else do you think it is so hard to get into Heaven these days? NIMBYs killed the building of more
53 Post contains images mikey72 : No offence intended. I'm half American. Just a bit touchy about BP I guess. As I said..no offence ! Meet me for a pint on Redondo Beach ? (I wish)
54 fcogafa : Afraid things are nowhere near that easy where train drivers and unions are concerned. For example there was an idea a while ago for the tube to run
55 Post contains links Glom : A timely post. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/10332333.stm
56 threepoint : This post would be a great deal more useful if the OP wouldn't insult those who present a contradictory view. Many of the arguments in favour of a thi
57 mikey72 : I understand your point totally. But ask the Egyptians not to build the Pyramids. Or George Stephenson not to invent the steam engine ? We're all on
58 threepoint : I'm not sure I understand your implication here, could you please clarify? I think we are all aviation enthusiasts to varying degrees, yes, but not a
59 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Ok, lets not go with maybe 24 hour but an hour or two in the early morning and evening is possible. Yah..and I thought unionism was bad enough here i
60 Glom : It is. I had no idea of the existence of the Jones act before a week ago. Not even Jim Callaghan would have dared to introduce that.
61 PITrules : You do know that up to 3 runways were proposed at LHR north of the current complex, up to 60 years ago? Furthermore, from Croydon to Dallas "Greater
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
LHR 3rd Runway Back To Public Consultation posted Fri Mar 26 2010 03:20:04 by david_itl
Alternate Location For LHR 3rd Runway posted Sun Feb 21 2010 18:43:35 by kaitak744
LHR 3rd Runway Decision Delayed Til Jan '09 posted Thu Dec 4 2008 02:05:27 by FLVILLA
LHR 3rd Runway, Status? posted Wed Nov 26 2008 18:26:38 by B747forever
LHR 3rd Runway Protestor Glues Himself To P.M! posted Tue Jul 22 2008 13:25:17 by Cumulus
LHR 3rd Runway Progress? posted Wed Nov 21 2007 08:19:41 by LHR27C
LHR 3rd Runway: They Had Owned The Land posted Sun Oct 22 2006 08:20:11 by Kaitak744
BA First Vs. Club World -- That Much Difference? posted Sun Jul 30 2006 23:44:44 by Jonno
BA: LHR 3rd Runway Sooner Than Later posted Thu Jun 8 2006 00:26:25 by Scotron11
LHR 3rd Runway 'Ruled Out In Short Term' posted Sat Nov 29 2003 10:35:29 by Planesarecool