Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
DOT Awards 11 US-Brazil Frequencies To AA, 0 To DL  
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3651 posts, RR: 19
Posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 20103 times:

In the dispute between AA and DL for the 2010 US-Brazil frequencies, the DOT has issued a NOAT awarding AA its full application for 11 frequencies (7 JFK-GIG, 4 MIA-BSB) and dismissing DL's application and propositions, which means that DL will not receive more frequencies for DTW-GRU and no frequency swap will take place.

http://www.airlineinfo.com/

235 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7320 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 20109 times:

Good news. JFK-GIG is a route that has been missing from AA's network for a while.

This also means that AA will probably move the GRU-GIG tag to the DFW flight! Good news for me!  



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinehardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 20034 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Thread starter):
In the dispute between AA and DL for the 2010 US-Brazil frequencies, the DOT has issued a NOAT awarding AA its full application for 11 frequencies (7 JFK-GIG, 4 MIA-BSB) and dismissing DL's application and propositions, which means that DL will not receive more frequencies for DTW-GRU and no frequency swap will take place.

Very good, I am sure AA will make better use of the frequencies by flying JFK-GIG and MIA-BSB.

Rgs,


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 20040 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Great news for AA!

As many of us expect, DOT follows the rules of the allocation and again DL, trying to run out of the rules, lost other round of frequencies. AA will consolidate it's leadership even more and will become a real competitor for both ATL-BSB .
And now we can expect AA to apply for MIA-FOR!

Good to see a daily JFK-GIG  



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11116 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 20021 times:

Should be interesting to see if AA goes after those other three frequencies as well - perhaps for 3x 757 MIA-FOR.

User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3651 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 19991 times:

Now, I bet we shall see DL giving up the frequency swap with US, keeping the unrestricted frequencies, immediately applying for the 3 unallocated ones for ATL-GIG and shifting 3 of the unrestricted to DTW-GRU in order to fly the route 5x weekly.
If AA is in the fighting mood, they could avoid that by applying for them in order to make MIA-CNF daily.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 19840 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Delta will have no chance to do that. AA got all they want, protect their position in Sao Paulo and increased their presence in Rio de Janeiro while challenge DL in Brasilia

As AA will begin JFK-GIG I believe DL will lose customers with that.

Now let's see what to do with a 2 weekly DTW



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlinehardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 19828 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 3):
As many of us expect, DOT follows the rules of the allocation and again DL, trying to run out of the rules, lost other round of frequencies. AA will consolidate it's leadership even more and will become a real competitor for both ATL-BSB .
And now we can expect AA to apply for MIA-FOR!
Quoting C010T3 (Reply 5):
Now, I bet we shall see DL giving up the frequency swap with US, keeping the unrestricted frequencies, immediately applying for the 3 unallocated ones for ATL-GIG and shifting 3 of the unrestricted to DTW-GRU in order to fly the route 5x weekly.

Doesnt UA hold 7 unrestricted frequencies to Brazil which they use seasonally to run IAD-GIG? Any chance DL/AA could prompt any action on these frequencies?

Rgs,


User currently offlineRafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 19783 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 5):
Now, I bet we shall see DL giving up the frequency swap with US, keeping the unrestricted frequencies, immediately applying for the 3 unallocated ones for ATL-GIG and shifting 3 of the unrestricted to DTW-GRU in order to fly the route 5x weekly.

I'm a bit confused. Can you explain?


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 19701 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

In the past I could see that happen, but not now. I believe UA/CO would launch a flight like EWR-GIG or even IAD-GIG ( In my view the best would be additional IAH-GIG service) to protect their frequencies


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3651 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 19285 times:

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 8):
Can you explain?

US and agreed on a frequency swap last year. US holds restricted frequencies that may not be used at GRU, while DL holds frequencies that can be used at GRU, but uses them at GIG. So, in the whole DCA-LGA swap story, US would also swap Brazil frequencies. That's the only reason DL couldn't be more flexible in this round. If they weren't tied to the commitment, they could have presented a better case and would have received what they wanted.
Now that the US-DL swap is becoming more uncertain by the day, they could just drop it altogether and that would make possible for them to swap frequencies with themselves.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 18988 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
In the past I could see that happen, but not now. I believe UA/CO would launch a flight like EWR-GIG or even IAD-GIG ( In my view the best would be additional IAH-GIG service) to protect their frequencies

Agreed. UA has a lot of options, and IAD-GIG is really the only route whose frequencies might need a new home. My vote would probably be for EWR-GIG, but I share your sentiment that they'll do something to make better use of them.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11116 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 18910 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 5):
Now, I bet we shall see DL giving up the frequency swap with US, keeping the unrestricted frequencies, immediately applying for the 3 unallocated ones for ATL-GIG and shifting 3 of the unrestricted to DTW-GRU in order to fly the route 5x weekly.

Would they prioritize three more weekly flights on Detroit-Sao Paulo over still trying to get the deal done with US? Or does Delta think the Brazil side-deal was never a make-or-break for US, anyway, and possibly that they could renegotiate for something else?

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 6):
Delta will have no chance to do that. AA got all they want, protect their position in Sao Paulo and increased their presence in Rio de Janeiro while challenge DL in Brasilia

This is going to make life substantially more challenging for Delta in Brasilia.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 6):
As AA will begin JFK-GIG I believe DL will lose customers with that.

Would it impact TAM more than Delta, which doesn't fly JFK-Rio?

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
In the past I could see that happen, but not now. I believe UA/CO would launch a flight like EWR-GIG or even IAD-GIG ( In my view the best would be additional IAH-GIG service) to protect their frequencies
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
Agreed. UA has a lot of options, and IAD-GIG is really the only route whose frequencies might need a new home. My vote would probably be for EWR-GIG, but I share your sentiment that they'll do something to make better use of them.

Agreed.

I think the combined airline would probably do well to use those frequencies to upgrade Houston-Rio to daily and use the remaining flights for 3-4x per week Newark-Rio.


User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1049 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 18599 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 12):
I think the combined airline would probably do well to use those frequencies to upgrade Houston-Rio to daily and use the remaining flights for 3-4x per week Newark-Rio.

IAH-GIG is already daily and operated by the 764.



Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32176 posts, RR: 72
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 18599 times:

Awesome news. AA has received every single U.S.-Brazil frequency that it has applied for and has received 22 of the 46 new U.S.-Brazil frequencies made available in the past two years - that's almost half. And I remember some people claiming there is no way DOT would ever let AA grab that many.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 10):
If they weren't tied to the commitment, they could have presented a better case and would have received what they wanted.

It would have likely asked for daily ATL-GIG and would have only received 3w.

If DL applies for ATL-GIG with the remaining three frequencies and is uncontested, I do think DL will succeed in receiving them.

At the same time, AA should use the opportunity to apply for those frequencies as well - an MIA-FOR or DFW-GIG application would likely beat an application for ATL-GIG, which does nothing more than replicate current service since DOT needs to look at the application on its face and cannot consider the fact that the frequencies would be used to transfer ATL-GIG frequencies to DTW-GRU.



a.
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3651 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 18554 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 12):
Would it impact TAM more than Delta, which doesn't fly JFK-Rio?

AA already flies JFK-GIG direct, so the capacity that is dedicated to GIG today will be fully used to GRU instead, so it actually hurts Delta more, but when it comes to TAM's daylight JFK-GRU, you may have a point.

Quoting commavia (Reply 12):

I think the combined airline would probably do well to use those frequencies to upgrade Houston-Rio to daily

What? CO has been flying IAH-GIG with 764 daily since August 2009.

Quoting commavia (Reply 12):

Would they prioritize three more weekly flights on Detroit-Sao Paulo over still trying to get the deal done with US?

It all depends on what they're up to at DCA and LGA.


User currently offlinePKRJ From Brazil, joined May 2010, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 18522 times:

That's awesome!!!! I won't have to stop in MIA anymore when I'll go visit my family! Great news for GIG. Is it already available for sales on AA's website?

User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3651 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 18485 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
DOT needs to look at the application on its face and cannot consider the fact that the frequencies would be used to transfer ATL-GIG frequencies to DTW-GRU.

It was never said they couldn't, but all the conditions in past proceedings were not favourable for that solution.

[Edited 2010-06-16 11:44:10]

User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3651 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 18461 times:

Quoting PKRJ (Reply 16):
Is it already available for sales on AA's website?

No, we cannot even be sure if AA will start the flights in October. They could wait until December, since they kind of have a 90-day "flexibility".


User currently offlineRafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 18358 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 10):

Thanks!


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11116 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 18328 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
At the same time, AA should use the opportunity to apply for those frequencies as well - an MIA-FOR or DFW-GIG application would likely beat an application for ATL-GIG, which does nothing more than replicate current service since DOT needs to look at the application on its face and cannot consider the fact that the frequencies would be used to transfer ATL-GIG frequencies to DTW-GRU.

If they were to go for some more frequencies, I would say MIA-FOR would get preference over DFW-GIG. DFW-GIG, I think, would be too thin for AA.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 15):
AA already flies JFK-GIG direct, so the capacity that is dedicated to GIG today will be fully used to GRU instead, so it actually hurts Delta more, but when it comes to TAM's daylight JFK-GRU, you may have a point.

True.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 15):
What? CO has been flying IAH-GIG with 764 daily since August 2009.

Ah, my mistake - sorry.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7320 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 18243 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 20):

If they were to go for some more frequencies, I would say MIA-FOR would get preference over DFW-GIG. DFW-GIG, I think, would be too thin for AA.

DFW-GIG is best served on the DFW-GRU-GIG routing with a 777 year round. That should work just fine for the market.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3651 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 18226 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 20):
DFW-GIG, I think, would be too thin for AA.

It cannot beat CLT.

Quoting commavia (Reply 20):
I would say MIA-FOR would get preference

I don't see why AA would bother starting another destination in Brazil if they have enough other opportunities in the ones they already serve. Before MIA-FOR, I see CNF becoming daily.


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3651 posts, RR: 19
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 18166 times:

If someone would like to take a look at the NOAT, here is the link:

http://www.regulations.gov/search/Re...#documentDetail?R=0900006480b031d8


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 5721 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 18133 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 12):
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 6):
Delta will have no chance to do that. AA got all they want, protect their position in Sao Paulo and increased their presence in Rio de Janeiro while challenge DL in Brasilia

This is going to make life substantially more challenging for Delta in Brasilia.

Going by what some people post on here, Delta should just drop BSB immediately because AA's nonstop would kill them :I .

Having said that, even as a Delta koolaid drinker I'm glad AA got the frequencies. Sure, I would love to see Delta operate DTW-GRU daily, but with the way they have been wasting their non-GRU/GIG frequencies, it's no surprise the DOT didn't give Delta any.


25 commavia : Since AA will be capturing the largest local market to/from the U.S., plus providing equally strong connections to/from the other U.S. markets with m
26 DAL767400ER : While I don't doubt that Delta will face an uphill struggle at BSB, I think they can still manage to stay in the market if they actually commit thems
27 Cubsrule : I don't think it has much (if anything) to do with what DL is doing with their secondary city frequencies, actually. It has more to do with the GRU/n
28 azjubilee : Why does DL feel it can change the rules to suit them? After reading the docket, it seems blatantly obvious the invitation to apply for new slots didn
29 MAH4546 : The DTW-GRU frequencies are being transferred from LAX-GRU. BSB-U.S. is growing, but still quite small. Even smaller than REC (though REC might be a
30 OA412 : I would think so too. Perhaps the OP was referring to those flying DL NYC-ATL-GIG. Nevertheless, I still believe that JJ will be most affected by AA'
31 LipeGIG : TAM will feel it, no doubt. But in my view the public for JFK-GIG will come from : AA current service O&D JFK-GIG - 33% AA current service connec
32 LipeGIG : I'm not because i don't see the point to offer a 2x weekly service, and as a said on previous discussions do not provide a real alternative or anythi
33 VC10er : I was on JJ on Monday JFK/GIG, I was in First. I was one of 2 people in first. The other 2 seats were empty. C was 100% full from what I could see. Y
34 alitalia744 : Congrats to AA and the AA fanboys (MAH...) Makes sense. Delta - use em' or lose em'.
35 klkla : What's funny is that some people seemed to be surprised by the DOT's decision. Realistically we all knew Delta's request would be turned down (as I'm
36 Post contains images commavia : Overflying two of the largest local markets - Miami and Orlando - may work when you are the only game in town. But when AA will be able to offer nons
37 C010T3 : I hadn't seen that. That's really odd, since the period was usually 90 days, not 10. The DOT is getting stricter, I suppose.
38 LipeGIG : It's in Conditions, on the end of the third page. It's like that on "non-peak" C and F are busy, Y is not so busy. TAM need to introduce a few more c
39 C010T3 : I know. After you pointed it out, I went back to reread the document.
40 varigb707 : Anyone know when MIA-BSB will start?
41 LipeGIG : Before Ocotber 10th 2010. Ok !
42 Post contains images mcdu : A bit surprising to me to see DL get Zero in this. From accounts on this board from DL Insiders, it is DL that controls the slot programs around the g
43 bobnwa : Please give some examples of this.
44 dldtw1962 : Once again, AA get their way. It is not bad enough that they hold almost all the slots to LHR. Now they have to have control of all the South America
45 eta unknown : DL merged with NW. Asia is their playroom now. Pack up your Brazilian toys and move along... obrigado.
46 hardiwv : GRU, GIG, EZE, SCL remain prime destinations of DL, certainly a very good and profitable toy for they to play around.. Rgs,
47 Post contains images LAXdude1023 : Im pretty sure he was being sarcastic. Though I could see a certain poster making those claims. A bit melodramatic are we?
48 Post contains images crAAzy : LOL ... too bad AA couldn't get all the UA/CO/DL/US slots to LHR stripped during this application too! Oh wait - then there are all those European ai
49 LipeGIG : When they apply for what is available they got a chance to get something but on this issue, they apply for something out of scope. When airlines do n
50 Rafabozzolla : Anyone has news on the schedule? Especially MIA-BSB?
51 LipeGIG : AA 973 JFK 2125-0835+1 GIG 763 Daily AA 974 GIG 2045-0605+1 JFK 763 Daily AA 947 MIA 2310-0740+1 BSB xMoTuTh AA 948 BSB 0940-1620 MIA xTuWeFr
52 Rafabozzolla : It's interesting that, from the secondary Brazil-US flights, only CNF is kept as a nightflight both ways. Will MIA-BSB be flown by 757s?
53 LipeGIG : I believe because CNF uses 763, a type that probably AA have more availability. The 752 is strongly used on domestic network as well as flights to th
54 LAXdude1023 : Any news on when they will be loaded and what will happen with the GRU-GIG tag?
55 Cubsrule : Also, CNF is a longer flight than the other secondary Brasil destinations. If you add an hour flight time to the BSB flights (not quite right, but cl
56 bjorn14 : I just wish the USA & Brazil would sign a 'Open Skies' agreement and be done with this silly slot/freq. game.
57 Post contains images klkla : That's the key. TRUE Open Skies. I don't think it will ever happen, especially at GRU, as the Brazilian government feels the need to protect TAM. Wit
58 Cubsrule : The United States has true open skies with Peru, Uruguay, and Chile - how does that help DL compete with AA?
59 MAH4546 : Yet AA has been the biggest proponent of Open Skies with Brazil and has been lobbying in Brazil for Open Skies for well over a decade. AA wants Open
60 LipeGIG : Open Skies with the United States would take a little longer than we might expect. I believe because of the big focus of all USA airlines at GRU, tha
61 klkla : It's really not fair to compare Brazil (Sao Paulo in particular) with Peru, Uruguay and Chile. If there was more demand to those places there would b
62 MAH4546 : Uruguay and Chile are not fair comparisons, but Peru absolutely is. Peruvians are the largest immigrant group from South America in the United States
63 crosswinds21 : Also, US citizens don't require a visa to go to Peru but require a visa to go to Brazil. That certainly contributes to the statement above.
64 ocracoke : If Brasil-USA were ever truly open (along with Columbia-USA), and there were still slots available for USA-Argentina at the same time, it wouldn't su
65 MAH4546 : There are plenty of unused U.S.-Argentina slots right now for U.S. carriers - I believe around 42 weekly slots or so.
66 LAXdude1023 : Yeah, good look with that.
67 LipeGIG : I doubt because of the huge investment needed. MIA could mean 40% of the plane for DL, but they still will need 40-60% and cargo. Perfect. Specially
68 klkla : The economy of Peru is tiny in comparison to Brazil. That's what my reference is about. There may very well be more passengers that go to Pero from t
69 hardiwv : Any chance AA or DL could try to comvince DOT to redistribute UA unrestricted frequencies that UA keeps using very erratically (seasonal flights runn
70 C010T3 : Does somebody know what AA is doing with the scheduling? It's really weird that effective June 28th the tag-on segments of AA950/1 are messed up showi
71 LipeGIG : When a resource is scarse everyone looks for it. But when it become available any time, the result is that no one look for it. I think is more due to
72 ocracoke : What huge investment? DL is the oldest currently flying american carrier at MIA, with a huge FF base. Not some new carrier to the market, starting fr
73 SCL767 : This past February, AA increased frequency on the MIA-LIM route to 3x daily. Also, LAN PERÚ serves the market adequately. LAN flies SCL-LIM-LAX dail
74 Post contains links C010T3 : I knew there was something wrong with the NOAT. The DOT has issued a corrected copy, allowing American to start services until December 30th, like I
75 commavia : The huge investment of trying to build a hub operation at an airport where another airline already has a massively dominant hub operation. Oldest doe
76 LipeGIG : Flights... not only from the current hubs. If they want to create a focus city it will demand new operations. And any flight created out of MIA, will
77 mcdu : Not allowed to name users..... Suffice it to say that all over the WORLD, TRAVELERs enjoy trips to Brazil and I am really glad to see AA do well in t
78 bobnwa : Since the users have posted on this board, why can't you give examples of what they said about Delta controlling the slots?
79 A388 : How do these frequency allocations work from the U.S. and Brazilian side? How do the authorities determine and decide which airlines gets how many fre
80 Post contains images MPDPilot : At first reading the original thread, I thought DL got screwed. But after reading the actual document. This really isn't a surprise. I don't even thin
81 commavia : The airline that holds Miami holds the keys to the kingdom that is U.S.-South America. I believe AA actually has a larger market share from the U.S.
82 LipeGIG : From the Brazilian Side, it works on a first come first served as there's still 52 available urestricted frequencies plus 49 with restrictions. From
83 LAXdude1023 : DL would not be able to make any of those markets work. I dont think they would try. Maybe they could try FLL if they are that desperate.
84 bobnwa : Since DL hasn't said a word about any of this a.net speculation I don't think they are desparate about MIA/FLL at all. Another example of some rumor/
85 worldtraveler : Hello... what dispute? In your attempts to paint DL as the bad guy, you fail to acknowledge that DL DIDN'T ASK for anything that competed with AA's r
86 LAXdude1023 : Never once said they were. Delta knows whats worth their time and what isnt. It is just speculation.
87 LipeGIG : WT, DL lost their chances. As i said since 2008, JFK-GIG was asking for the gap to be closed and now AA closed it. It was DL better chance to gain so
88 C010T3 : Let's just pretend that DL did not apply for the same frequencies that AA did. My attempts? DL has been trying to circumvent the system since 2008. T
89 worldtraveler : you don't seem to understand that DL LOST NOTHING because they WANTED NOTHING. All DL wants - and all that is left of value in Brazil is more GRU acc
90 MAH4546 : If your definition of "ANYONE" is Delta, sure. MIA-CNF is in the black; MIA-SSA/REC is almost there, probably will be profitable by year's end; looks
91 commavia : Again, when you're at a systemic competitive disadvantage - namely that you overfly the largest local market for most Brazilian destinations (Miami)
92 C010T3 : I'm sorry, but holding on to frequencies is exactly what DL is doing, so maintaining the market position is the goal there. Don't even try to deny it
93 Post contains images mcdu : As I expected and predicted the spin would be....DL did not want anything, they just wanted to make things difficult on AA. This is too much! Thanks
94 toobz : As entertaining as these threads get, these AA vs DL bickerings that go back and forth just get so child like. AA is bigger in South America but DLs a
95 SCL767 : JFK-GIG will be a top performing route with exceptional cargo yields, IMO! FYI, these new services will greatly benefit from the very strong recovery
96 Jacobin777 : AA primarily sends B777's where they can get good yields.
97 Post contains links hardiwv : Import and export markets. VCP has broken record on cargo handling, and increase of 89% in imports and 79% in exports. I assume MAO is another airpor
98 SCL767 : And more growth is on the way. And that is exactly why LAN will transfer another Boeing 767-300F (CC-CZY) to ABSA Cargo, which will be reregistered a
99 LipeGIG : What a waste of resource to apply and deffend a position just for nothing. DOT should be advised about that not to waste public money by making analy
100 LipeGIG : AA knows the market so well as JJ and understands what's behind: 50% of the Sao Paulo stock exchange value is in Rio as well as a good portion of the
101 worldtraveler : No they aren't in the black. SSA/REC has the highest costs of any long-haul flight on the AA system thanks to the circle flight. CNF yields are impro
102 MAH4546 : Yes, MIA-CNF is in the black. Sorry to burst your bubble. It just goes to show how your little number crunching is flawed and proves nothing.
103 C010T3 : What's the docket number???
104 MAH4546 : No docket. DL did not want to return anything. It wanted to exchange 4 non-GRU/GIG for 4 GIG/future-GIG. Now that DL has been denied, Delta will prob
105 C010T3 : I know, I was just trying to get WT to either prove it or leave it.
106 Rafabozzolla : Do you know that for a fact, or are you assuming they aren't based on your math?
107 Jacobin777 : Which will change if AA changes its seating structure-which according to some here, just might be happening soon enough. 1-Data please.... 2-Even if
108 worldtraveler : He doesn't know and if he did, he wouldn't be authorized to be posting on a.net. There is no funny math necessary to figure out that when AA gets 25%
109 Post contains links MAH4546 : WT is assuming, as always, and his assumptions are 100% wrong. I, however, know for a fact. That being said, 2008 was a very rough year for everybody
110 LipeGIG : On this i agree with you 100%. The AA 777 is at the same too premium and too much for mostly markets. The First is too big and the business is not bi
111 Post contains images commavia : Once again, we're basically in a heads-I-win, tails-you-lose situation, where no matter what happens - it's good for Delta. Delta fails in market afte
112 LipeGIG : Commavia, one important detail i can add is that DL recently tried a lot of new city pairs/markets, and for some they did not got the result, but for
113 commavia : Absolutely. It's common sense: some airlines succeed in some markets where other airlines don't, and vice versa. Delta has added tons of internationa
114 PlanesNTrains : So when AA throws capacity at the market, it's bad, but when Delta throws capacity at the market, it's good? I would think that an improving market w
115 Post contains images Jacobin777 : . I do believe that is one of the bigger complaints AA supporters (such as myself) have. AA is too slow to start new routes. There have been countles
116 LipeGIG : You wont, i'm sure. DL have markets like AA have in Latin America: Europe and Asia On these markets, DL is no doubt the leader and posts a competitiv
117 AirNZ : Is this a guess/hope, or can you actually provide a factual basis for your assurance on the matter?
118 MAH4546 : A major expansion of this will be happening in 2011, finally. There have been a lot of rumors that this is being seriously considered and a decision
119 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : I don't question the growth at all. What I question is the assertion: First, we're to believe that AA is throwing capacity while DL is going for prof
120 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Its about time Mark....I guess the pending ATI approval has something to do with it... Thanks Mark.. ...Sounds quite interesting.. Rest of my comment
121 LipeGIG : I agree with you. But considering that, in the case of Brazil, AA is doing well, and this is a fact. The other fact we can see is that, what airline,
122 hardiwv : AA B777 is a perfect fit for AA operations in GRU which is always eager to capture more premium seats. No doubt that AA fully understands the Brazili
123 Post contains images worldtraveler : but AA will still have the highest costs of any US-Brazil carrier = 15% higher than CO and DL and 8% higher than UA. and would you like to tell us ho
124 LipeGIG : That's something they might begin to correct very easily. They can establish a base in both Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro. There's room for that. CNF
125 WA707atMSP : AA's Latin American bases date back (at least) half a century, to when the routes were flown by Braniff. In the 1970s, many of Braniff's Latin Americ
126 LipeGIG : Agreed. And these bases provides an interesting cost reduction for them. If possible AA should increase them and as i mentioned, open a new one in Br
127 LDVAviation : Yeah, I still laugh at the proposition that Delta's empty terminal at ORD was always in the long term plan. According to you know who, the plan was n
128 worldtraveler : Hate to burst your bubble but the US is not giving out any more visas for foreign based FAs to fly to the US.... DL tried multiple times to obtain vi
129 LDVAviation : That is not what you argued. YOU actually said it was in Delta's long term plans. But, I don't really need to convince people here how many times you
130 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : Which is irrelevant WT-if AA is making profits, its making profits. It dominates South America/Latin America-no business in the world can dominate it
131 worldtraveler : I have NEVER argued that DL intended to operate a terminal at ORD for the purpose of ground handling other carriers... DL USED the terminal shortage
132 commavia : As I'm often reminded, all that cost and revenue data broken down by region is heavily dependant on allocations and accounting at the individual carri
133 MAH4546 : AA "can't," yet it is making money to CNF. Great logic there. I know it bothers you so much that AA has been successful where Delta has not in second
134 LipeGIG : Easy... just need to hire people with dual citizenship. For sure there's corporate agreements with bulk fares, but i can guarantee CO is very happy w
135 WA707atMSP : If AA were, hypothetically, to close one of its Latin bases, and lay off, among others, the daughters or grand daughters of the controlling sharehold
136 LAXdude1023 : Here is what the Tariff display looks like for the cheapest fares: MIA-GRU on AA: AA 1259.00R VHEBR12M V + 2/12M 27JUN -04AUG ATL-GRU on DL: DL 1186.
137 LDVAviation : Is this a joke? When Delta was in bankruptcy, YOU were the first to argue that they had every reason to be adding capacity to Europe.[Edited 2010-06-
138 incitatus : As you know well, we will likely see DL do CNF-ATL before JJ does CNF-MIA. The local market is not sufficient to sustain JJ and JJ has no decent feed
139 commavia : No need. Just more of this continued obsession with size and being the biggest - even though, historically, there has been a tenuous (at best) correl
140 Post contains images Jacobin777 : There is no correlation at all-and that has been proven to be incorrect anyway as commavia has mentioned. Unless you have a specific breakdown of an
141 worldtraveler : precisely...but the bottom line reported to Wall Street is absolutely consistent.... on that count AA has been unequivocally the most poorly run airl
142 B377 : WT your constant bantering about AA vs DL are really getting tiring. AA does not release their profitability or losses by route, so you do not have a
143 worldtraveler : there actually are facts... it is not profitability by route but revenue per route is released as part of industry available data. Cost is released b
144 LipeGIG : Thanks, can you take a look on the other side... you will see higher fares on GRU-MIA, GIG-MIA, GIG-IAH, GRU-IAH, GIG-ATL and GRU-ATL.
145 worldtraveler : which says that Brazil perhaps is a higher value ORIGIN than it is a destination.... which isn't entirely surprising. But even so, Brazilians don't p
146 FutureUScapt : OK, well I hate to be the third one in on a fight, but allow me to weigh in on this. 2008 was indeed a very rough year in the US-Brazil market AND th
147 LipeGIG : No, but i was clear that this is the lowest fare for high season. In general mid-June-Mid August and Last week of December till First week of Februar
148 LipeGIG : BSB could work for both. It's not a big O&D but it's a hub in the middle of the country that can attract passengers from GYN, one of the largest
149 worldtraveler : I'm glad you won't agree with me because that is not what I said.... I simply said that AA is sticking it out on routes that other carriers have woul
150 MAH4546 : You can argue until the cows come home. I'm not basing it on assumptions or DOT data. MIA-CNF is now, as of the past few months, operating in the bla
151 LipeGIG : Mark, i believe BSB will work also, if both continue 4x weekly.
152 LipeGIG : Okay, The Topic is about DOT Awards 11 US-Brazil Frequencies to AA, 0 to DL. Please keep the focus of the discussion on the subject.
153 MaverickM11 : Then why is DL dropping them all as the economy--and Brazil traffic--rebounds with a vengeance?
154 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : I am quite certain that most remember Delta going through BK. They obviously failed more than they succeeded. Well, according to MAH4546, who appears
155 ocracoke : What was the reason AA gave for the AA/JL tieup? That it would help preserve competition in the Japan-US market, for if it were a DL/JL tieup, it wou
156 Cubsrule : But since when do AA's Latin America flight attendants only fly to and from their base? Do DL's (nonexistent) SFO-based pilots operate SFO-NRT? Given
157 MAH4546 : The market between the United States and secondary Brazilian markets is tiny. There is no room for much competition in this niche market and consumer
158 Post contains images FutureUScapt : Well, it seems that the entire disagreement was over the performance of the route six months ago vs now, and I think we can all agree the revenue env
159 MAH4546 : No public data can show us a routes' profitability. There are far too many extraneous factors - cargo, airport costs, corporate incentive packages, f
160 FutureUScapt : You're right; I should've clarified to mean revenue performance. Still, when you cross compare with routes of similar stage lengths, you can have a d
161 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : I believe he stated that very fact much earlier in the thread. That no one cared to utilize the information later is ... odd. Exactly. It is not a tr
162 MAH4546 : The thing missing is that you can't just take DOT data and say if a route is profitable or not. WT is using DOT facts to create his own made-up asser
163 worldtraveler : touche' we could say the same thing about the market to secondary cities in Japan... but DL has more routes to them than any other airline from the U
164 FlyPNS1 : Not really. DL has many routes that have been around for 2 years (and longer) and that have lost money. Like AA, DL has decided to tolerate the losse
165 commavia : Call me old fashioned, but to me, I thought bankruptcy - the insolvency that results from being literally incapable of living up to your financial ob
166 LipeGIG : AA have some challenges, no doubt about that, but i agree with you: you can't say that it's poorly run. Because any additional flight you create, you
167 Cubsrule : Ockaroke is confusing, I think, AA's interests and consumer interests (protected by DoT). AA's interest is clearly in applying for every flight it ca
168 LAXdude1023 : Its apples and oranges, but I think you already knew that.
169 DFWEagle : Let's not get carried away. AA now has a total of 69 weekly US-Brazil frequencies, out of a total pool of 154 available to US carriers. That's only a
170 incitatus : No surprise, you read at your leisure. I never said there is any potential for DL in CNF. It is just the natural order of which airline (JJ or DL) wo
171 LipeGIG : That's a valid point. Three years ago i heard from DL that their 5 best markets out of GIG were NYC, MCO, MIA, HOU and LAX. We know that CO took over
172 DFWEagle : Does DL not have 33 now? I thought they had 23 unrestricted (7x ATL-GRU, 7x ATL-GIG, 7x JFK-GRU, 2x DTW-GRU) plus 10 restricted to the Northeast, unl
173 Post contains links diverdave : Well said. There are those who believe that Delta's network planning consists of throwing darts a map. Yet Glen Hauenstein http://news.delta.com/inde
174 Post contains images Jacobin777 : It was in reference to other carriers which fly routes for couple of years to let it "develop". VS comes to mind. They didn't have the luxury of BK.
175 incitatus : DL used a doubly failed strategy in Brazil. It went aggressively after secondary markets and took a conservative/defensive position in GIG/GRU. It we
176 Post contains images commavia : Not to mention - minor detail - they won't be "4th" in any of the three international traffic regions, and they won't be "4th" in more than a few maj
177 LipeGIG : You're correct AA 69 UA/CO 42 DL 33 US 7 Available 3 Correct. Since 2008 i advocate for DL to invest in GIG, at least extending JFK-GRU to GIG. Then
178 Post contains images DFWEagle : Thanks for the list. Basically, it looks like DL is becoming a relatively small carrier in the US-Brazil market, with AA, JJ and UA as the main playe
179 WA707atMSP : Not to be nit picky, but this will be AA's 20th anniversary of continuous service to Brasil. In 1983 / 84, AA flew DFW-GIG with DC-10-30s. This was A
180 Jacobin777 : Wasn't DL with its superior lower costs, aggressive scheduling and being the largest player in the world going to topple AA in the South American (es
181 Post contains images DFWEagle : I did mean continuous service, but thanks for pointing out AA's earlier venture I believe the service you mentioned started on 14th December 1982 and
182 LipeGIG : This become a fact when UA and CO announce their merge. Now besides US, which is a new player, DL become the smaller, but of course, doesn't mean res
183 Jacobin777 : Thanks for the input LipeGIG, but there are some who refuse to believe AA can extract such premiums....oh well.
184 C010T3 : That's impossible, since GRU did not exist at the time.
185 Post contains images DFWEagle : Haha... okay, whatever airport Sao Paulo had at the time then
186 C010T3 : That's actually quite difficult to say. Did they fly to CGH or VCP?
187 klkla : DL never had 50% of U.S. departures to GIG. At least not anytime in modern history including the period between when Varig was failing and TAM was ex
188 MAH4546 : Yes it did. Around 2003-04, U.S. departures to GIG where simply AA's seven weekly flights to Miami and DL's seven weekly flights to Miami. CO and UA
189 allegro : While I feel for the DL folks, I think overall this is a good decision. Looks like the U.S. gov't is helping the airlines strenghten themselves where
190 LipeGIG : I believe you meant DL seven weekly flights to Atlanta. In fact was 08/2005 when they resume ATL-GIG service. AA was the king of GIG for more than 2
191 incitatus : This July DL is flying 763s, so at least for this peak season, no frequencies or seats have been added. Felipe seems to have the dates right. Startin
192 DFWEagle : That’s a good question, and I don’t know the answer. Initially, I would have said it must be VCP because the runway at CGH is pretty damn short f
193 C010T3 : That was quite common back then. That's why I asked.
194 klkla : July is one of the slowest times of the year going to Rio de Janeiro. It's the middle of winter. Peak season for Brazil is clearly during their summe
195 incitatus : REALLY..??? The other times of the year then it must be an insane proposition to reach Rio. To start, the majority of the US-Brazil market is made of
196 MAH4546 : But its the busiest time to leave Rio de Janeiro, and the GIG-to-U.S. market is larger than U.S-to-GIG. On paper, JFK-GIG could work for DL. But, the
197 LipeGIG : This is because you're just looking to US-GIG. Out of my mind to travel on July and even my corporation avoids traffic in July to Rio and Sao Paulo d
198 MaverickM11 : They have before, and with US running CLTGIG, it wouldn't surprise me if they are still. NYCGIG is tough for anyone, whether it's DL, AA, or JJ. The
199 MAH4546 : DL applied for the remaining three frequencies for ATL-BSB/MAO, and will return three of its current frequencies. Now let's see if another carrier rea
200 LipeGIG : That's a response to TAM which is selling business class for both JFKGRU and JFKGIG for US$ 2,300.00 (which is in fact a response to US also) Allow m
201 Cubsrule : I suspect the EWR-GIG frequencies will probably come from IAD-GIG ultimately. I can't see the merged UA/CO needing more than 42 Brasil frequencies.
202 MaverickM11 : JJ and DL have had some pretty cheap front cabin fares even before US started CLTGIG, which leads me to my next point... ...that I'm not surprised th
203 peanuts : Reading this thread, it is clear AA is king in South America...(at a price...) I just don't get the impression (some of you are trying to imply) DL is
204 LipeGIG : Interesting development, seems that DL will finally look into the markets where they can get something. It's clear that they are trying to hold frequ
205 C010T3 : The market size in comparison does not affect pricing in this case. It is the relation between offer and demand that does, so your market size argume
206 commavia : Well, again, if the "price" you're referring to is profitability, I would remind you that - according to Form 41 data that some others love to cite,
207 MAH4546 : Agreed. It would also preclude other carriers from using these frequencies to GIG in the future.
208 LipeGIG : It's easy to see that all DL is looking for are Sao Paulo future frequencies. Any other airline that request something will receive over DL request.
209 C010T3 : IMHO, if DL really wants to park these frequencies for future GRU-service, they should apply for them for seasonal use at GIG. They could either fly
210 Cubsrule : I don't know how well it translates for you, but in the States, we say "nothing ventured, nothing gained." DL had nothing to lose - it made sense to
211 Jacobin777 : What I find funny is that when DL has a favorable lead/dominant in a particular market, it can be the "price setter", but when it comes to AA being d
212 incitatus : Right, there is more to this story and given your comment I will venture into saying you have not been reading it. After ATL-GRU/GIG and JFK-GRU DL k
213 LipeGIG : Thanks ! The lose their timing. Now the only available market for them is Sao Paulo it self. I see space for more MIA and IAH only.
214 peanuts : A little disingenuous possibly. Counting international market "dominance", DL has AA beat in many more markets. I'm not sure if that gives DL "price
215 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I think many have stated AA has been weak in a number of markets. AA's biggest hurdles have been: 1)Getting JV/ATI with BA/IB approved...that's done.
216 DFWEagle : Your logic and argument is flawed. You are taking an entire continent (South America), with many different countries and cities, and saying it is one
217 LipeGIG : Anyone knows when the flights will be launched by AA ? South America and Brazil are interesting markets. First because many of the countries have the
218 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Excellent point of view .......it could be peanuts was regarding to more long the lines of AA being LHR and NRT "heavy"... ...
219 Post contains links commavia : AA issued a press release this morning: JFK-GIG launches 18Nov10, MIA-BSB on 19Nov10.
220 C010T3 : Thank you for the info. Those are odd flight numbers though.
221 MaverickM11 : I wasn't talking about the market size so much as the percentage of high yield traffic, which is very low for GIG The local market is going to make-o
222 LipeGIG : Wow, that was a quick reply to my question! You're right about the size of connections for TAM. They have plans to further improve this by adding 2 G
223 C010T3 : JJ's operation is smaller, but G3's operation at GIG is larger than GRU's. Lower, not very low.
224 MaverickM11 : If JJ isn't connecting much of its own traffic over GIG, it's connecting even less onto other carriers. I guess it's in the eye of the beholder, but
225 C010T3 : Well, if you have access to that kind of information, that's great. It means that JJ is filling their flights with O&D. What can you wish more fo
226 LipeGIG : Maverick, i wouldn't say that. First because AA still have 33% of the current 772 flight that goes to GIG every day. This is 40% of the 763. Second,
227 incitatus : I am going to say again that this is not very well informed. When Rio went real bad, AA was the only American carrier serving the US nonstop. It too
228 incitatus : In effect DL is asking the DoT to prevent any airline from adding service to GIG in the near future, -AND-, that any future competitive allocation of
229 LipeGIG : Incitatus, what they want is just to have the frequencies that allow future use in Sao Paulo. Their 10 frequencies to MAO and BSB do not allow shift
230 Post contains images MaverickM11 : I think I, and JJ, wish for a higher fare That will certainly help. Again, filling the plane won't be that hard, particularly for AA versus any other
231 C010T3 : The new flights are already loaded on Amadeus, though not bookable on AA.com. It seems that the GIG-GRU and GRU-GIG tags are gone! Will UA and LA be t
232 AF086 : That means that unless AA upgrades one of the GIG-MIA flights to the 772, AA won't offer first-class service to the station. Unless the airline uses
233 C010T3 : Well, the tag-on flight was already changed some weeks ago. Effective July 2nd, it will be flown by a 763 according to Amadeus. AA is handing over th
234 LipeGIG : Flights available on AA.com, they advised on the press release that they would be available on Sunday. Was a matter of hours probably. And yes, the t
235 Post contains links LipeGIG : As this is getting too long and there's a new development, please continue the discussion here: AA MIA-BSB And JFK-GIG Available On GDS. (by LipeGIG J
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
DOT Institutes '09 US-Brazil Combo Freq Proceeding posted Fri Jan 9 2009 13:40:28 by C010T3
DOT Approves AA And DL New Flights To Brazil posted Fri Aug 8 2008 12:54:04 by LipeGIG
DOT Awards COU EAS Contract To Mesaba posted Wed May 7 2008 12:30:33 by Bcoz
Ex-DL MD-11 On The Move To ROW W/UPS? posted Tue May 16 2006 16:53:16 by United_fan
US Airways Gets OK To Emerge From Ch. 11 posted Fri Sep 16 2005 18:00:16 by AirRyan
DOT Awards QX EAS To PDT posted Sat Mar 26 2005 04:44:31 by LineMechQX
US Airways: More Frequencies To Costa Rica posted Wed Feb 9 2005 05:15:50 by TACAA320
DOT Awards Slots To 9 Airlines At DCA posted Thu Apr 1 2004 21:04:53 by FATFlyer
Acela Shutdown To Benefit DL/US Shuttles? posted Tue Aug 13 2002 19:34:57 by Haveric
US D.o.T Gives Initial Approval To DL/AF Alliance posted Sat Dec 22 2001 21:37:04 by Singapore_Air