LJ35 From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 21 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9248 times:
I actually saw this incident happen before my eyes.I work @ the ESSO FBO @ YOW and the runway that this mishap occured on is right in front of us,and just a note regarding the NTSB statement saying it overan runway 25 it was actually runway 07.Conditions at the time fairly heavy rain and low cloud cover meaning that the runway was extremely slick although there were a few aicraft that landed before this one and there weren't any problems with them,yet most of them were using the entire length of 07 instead of exiting at Foxtrot taxiway.When I saw the United Express go buy he was moving at a fair clip and I had my doubts of it being able to stop in time,my fellow co-workers didn't seem to believe me when I said that he will most likely overun the end of the runway.Of course that changed when we all saw it nose down off the end of 07.Given that this was a Trans States owned aircraft it isn't equiped with thrust reversers,I know this because this is the second time in 6 years that a Trans States EMB 145 has gone off the end of a runway in YOW.The last time was in August 2004(this was a flight being operated for US Airways Express) on runway 25 in very wet conditions and the pilot there had said he had no braking action,essentially hydroplaning until he hit the grass were braking action was re-established.That recovery was easy,it only involved a tug and towbar,this one will pretty similar to the Miami Air 727 recovery back in September 2000 that had the same thing happen.
PITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2692 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9120 times:
A few posters have mentioned the lack of thrust reversers, but in reality they only marginally help stopping performance, and many airlines' landing performance data does not even include the use of reverse thrust. Much more significant is the lack of grooves on the runway during a downpour.
Quoting loggat (Reply 4):
and of course, Canadian runways are not grooved. Doesn't sound good.
PITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2692 posts, RR: 3 Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4444 times:
Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 18): And, several thousand planes land every day in Canada just like everywhere else in the world, with no issues....... Lets not blow this up into a huge issue that likely isn't there.
Lets not dismiss it before an investigation is complete either. Crowning and grooving reduces the amount of standing water which in turn reduces hydroplaning which in turn increases the margin of safety. Its not rocket science.
auroralives From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 172 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4301 times:
Quoting threepoint (Reply 12): Look at the 2nd photo in the slideshow. Never fails to amaze me how many passengers won't think of deplaning without their carry-on items.
On July 14, 2004, and almost identical situation happened on the same runway, in the opposite direction. You can read the report here.
It was a EMB-175 operated by Trans State Airways (but for USAir Express), Hmmmmmm..
I know this because I was on that plane
Anyway, to the carry-on comment.... After the plane came to rest, it took almost 1.5 hours before they would let us off... they had to figure out how to get busses there, and since there was no danger of fire, they figured why make us stand around in a muddy field in the rain.
My incident and this one were NOT "throw open the door, inflate the slides and get the hell out at risk of death" type of incidents.... more like a call home and, "honey, my plane crashed and it's stuck in the mud and they won't let us out so I'll be late for dinner" kind of event.
rfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 6150 posts, RR: 25 Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4221 times:
While I don't doubt your experience - to my knowledge Trans States has never operated any EMB-175 aircraft.
The incident in your link describes the aircraft as an ERJ-145.
Re the carry-on - it looks to me from the photos there was no "emergency evacuation" - but that when the passengers were allowed off the aircraft they were told to take all their belongings because they would not be getting back on the aircraft again.
Kaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 24 Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4186 times:
Quoting PITrules (Reply 20): Lets not dismiss it before an investigation is complete either. Crowning and grooving reduces the amount of standing water which in turn reduces hydroplaning which in turn increases the margin of safety. Its not rocket science.
And in winter, residual moisture in the grooves freezes and acts as an ice crystal catalyst for the remainder of the runway surface. It's way easier (or should be) to deal with a wet runway in summer than an icy one in winter.
Note à moi-même - il faut respecter les cons.
25 auroralives: Sorry... typo... my point was it was the same aircraft both times.
26 PITrules: Treatments are available to deal with that. I disagree, if the runway is not crowned and grooved, how does an airport deal with a wet runway? Over th
27 lnglive1011yyz: It's too premature to even blame the runway at this point. For a plane of this size in question to not be able to land on an 8000 foot runway in stor
28 m11stephen: In this case it does indeed look like there was an emergency evacuation. All four of the exits are open and in one of the pics the F/A can be seen he
29 Kaiarahi: The previous overrun on this runway and in YYZ were both hot and high; in addition, the previous YOW overrun was also attributed to inappropriate wet
30 PITrules: Indeed; as I stated there is a chain of events. What I'm talking about is increasing the margin of safety on wet runways, which grooved runways do. I
31 Viscount724: MSP winters are several degrees colder than YOW based on average temperature data from 1970 to 2000. Record low temperatures for the months of Decemb
32 threepoint: Not so my friend. The properties of water, or in this case, ice, differ greatly at different temperatures. Ice & snow certainly do not retain sta
33 A346Dude: Off topic, but not true. Moscow is colder by record and average temperature while Helsinki is colder by average temperature, as are Reykjavik and a c
34 threepoint: Veering off topic here, but are you sure? Reykjavik is a surprisingly mild city... It's all a moot exercise at any rate, because all that really matt
35 atpcliff: Hi! Thrust reversers can make a HUGE difference. I am currently flying a DC-9, and we could stop without using ANY braking, if we wanted to. TRs are n
36 DashTrash: I hear what you're saying, but not all types of reversers are created equal. ERJ buckets create a lot of drag just by opening them. They're good and