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Spirit & Pilots Reach A Tentative Agreement  
User currently offlineglobalflyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 901 posts, RR: 3
Posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11131 times:

Looks like an agreement came about at 16:00Eastern.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/business...ines-0614-20100613,0,6379963.story

Flights may resume as early as Friday.


Landing on every Continent almost on an annual basis!
177 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3276 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11038 times:

26 straight hours of negotiations huh? Hope the room was well ventilated!

Be interesting to see what differences there are from the previous offer. I get the feeling the negative publicity pushed mgmt back to the table. Leaving customers stranded because you didn't have a ticketing agreement was just dumb.


User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2679 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11008 times:

Good news.

Looks like the pilots called their bluff, as expected.

Now it's time for them to read this TA very very carefully. They won't be in this position again soon.


User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10960 times:

Looks like the strike worked! Mgmt likes to waste time for YEARS and finally settle when they're backed against a wall. Ridiculous. I'm not holding my breath though... the devil is always in the details.

User currently offlineBuddys747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 515 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10879 times:

Hopefully it works out for both sides and things can move on! In a few months or so most will forget the strike (flying public, that is)

User currently offlinecv640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 952 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10880 times:

I do hope its a contract their pilots can live with. It does seem Spirit misjudged their ability to farm out their flying during the strike. Congrats on everyone for standing strong and good luck.

User currently offlinenkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2639 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10817 times:

Quoting Buddys747 (Reply 4):
In a few months or so most will forget the strike (flying public, that is)

They will be focused on the carry-on charge instead....

Great that everybody can go back to work!!



next flights ACY-ORD-DEN-IAH-ACY on UA
User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2679 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10817 times:

Quoting cv640 (Reply 5):
I do hope its a contract their pilots can live with. It does seem Spirit misjudged their ability to farm out their flying during the strike.

They certainly did!


User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1828 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 10466 times:

Good to hear. Hopefully the pilots received a fair contract and the airline can continue successful operations.

User currently offlinediverdave From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10310 times:

It is so ironic that I got this ad on this page: "Center for Union Facts Facts That Union Leaders Don't Want You To Know."

Good to know that perhaps both sides have reached an equitable agreement, and the airline should be operating tomorrow!

David


User currently offlineCondorito From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10300 times:

The pilot group should spend some of the money compensating the other employees who were inconvenienced.
It won't happen, of course, but they should.



The future's uncertain, and the end is always near.
User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10233 times:

Quoting Condorito (Reply 10):
The pilot group should spend some of the money compensating the other employees who were inconvenienced.
It won't happen, of course, but they should.

   I think you've got the wrong responsible party.

Wonderful news! Let's hope the remaining sections get hammered out successfully and everyone gets back to work with a better environment to return to.


User currently offlineluvfa From United States of America, joined May 2005, 439 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10219 times:

Glad to see the pilots/company reach a TA. Proud of AFA and the way they walked the line with them. Hope the pilots return the favor when the FA's negotiations bog down.

User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10201 times:

Quoting Condorito (Reply 10):
The pilot group should spend some of the money compensating the other employees who were inconvenienced.
It won't happen, of course, but they should.

As much as I am anti-union, this is one time I can't agree. The pilots were getting raked over and had to take matters in their own hands. It's unfortunate that there was collateral damage, but that's what happens in strikes.

On a different note, I honestly think this is the beginning of the end for Spirit. Their name has been severely tarnished by all the bad press from this strike, and (as much as people like to jump on the cheapest fare) I'm thinking that there are a LOT of people who will now think twice before buying tickets on Spirit...and once their carry-on fees take effect, I see that being another hindrance to their name brand.

They've got a long road ahead of them...that's for sure.


User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10131 times:

Rats.

I was hoping for the end to this useless excuse for an airline.


User currently offlinecv640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 952 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10133 times:

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 13):
On a different note, I honestly think this is the beginning of the end for Spirit. Their name has been severely tarnished by all the bad press from this strike, and (as much as people like to jump on the cheapest fare) I'm thinking that there are a LOT of people who will now think twice before buying tickets on Spirit...and once their carry-on fees take effect, I see that being another hindrance to their name brand.

I doubt it, people always love that low fare. They hear $9 fares and they jump.

Spirit is also sitting on a pretty large amount of cash.


User currently offlinefalcon flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10049 times:

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 13):
On a different note, I honestly think this is the beginning of the end for Spirit. Their name has been severely tarnished by all the bad press from this strike, and (as much as people like to jump on the cheapest fare) I'm thinking that there are a LOT of people who will now think twice before buying tickets on Spirit

I don't know. It's a numbers game and Spirit knows there will always be a percentage of airline travellers looking for a cheap fare, no matter what. I promise you, a few months from now, many of those complaining about how they were inconvenienced will jump again at a low fare to NY or FL. When it comes right down to it, a cheap fare is really the only thing most everyone is interested in. I'm not particularly pro union but in this case it served its purpose and management severely misjudged the resolve of the pilots. Shiny new airplanes aren't the only thing pilots are looking for. As far as the Spirit name being tarnished, if charging for carry-ons didn't do any damage, I'm not sure anything will.



My definition of cool ? Not trying so hard to be cool.
User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9908 times:

Quoting falcon flyer (Reply 16):
As far as the Spirit name being tarnished, if charging for carry-ons didn't do any damage, I'm not sure anything will.

Well, they haven't started charging yet...

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 14):
Rats.

I was hoping for the end to this useless excuse for an airline.

Me too bro...but this is the free market system. If people want to fly em, then they have that choice. As for me, no thanks. I actually have paid double to avoid flying them a few times.


User currently offlineCondorito From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9892 times:

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 13):
As much as I am anti-union, this is one time I can't agree. The pilots were getting raked over and had to take matters in their own hands. It's unfortunate that there was collateral damage, but that's what happens in strikes.

Were the pilots forced at gun-point to start working for Spirit?



The future's uncertain, and the end is always near.
User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9836 times:

This isn't an issue of what things were like when they started at Spirit. New contracts are about where they are today and where they're going for the duration of the contract. Is it unreasonable to make improvements?

User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9772 times:

It's not an issue of being "all that" or not. It's a matter of attempting to achieve a fair and equitable contract. How is it sad? They saw something needing fixing, so they set out to fix it. More power to them.

[Edited 2010-06-16 17:32:04]

User currently offlinecv640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 952 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9725 times:

OK, your right not gun to their heads. So, those that aren't happy should quit. Over 90% voted to strike, that leaves only about 40 pilots left. That would ground Spirit for months as they would have to hire new pilots, train them, and then get them experience. This would cost far more then the strike and cause considerably more layoffs.

Spirit was making a large profit prior to this and ALPA does have accoutants on staff. They do go over the numbers, lesson were learned from old contracts that were great at D.O.S. but didn't last long. We will see, hopefully the new TA has a good balance. Spirit pilots were the lowest paid and they were just asking for average pay among other low cost carriers. They weren't asking for a legacy carrier contract or a Southwest contract.


User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2679 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9469 times:

I'm pretty sure most of you would see incredible improvements in your own jobs if you had the ability to go on strike if a government mediation board ruled that your management was out of control.

Ever had a boss that was totally unfair? Wouldn't this have helped? Of course! It's common sense to do what they did.

First time in a decade in the USA that it's happened and nobody ever wants it to get to the point of a strike. The idea is that the mere threat of a strike as things get really heated in negotiations forces both sides to be very reasonable.

Spirit management was not even being close to reasonable. So, they got what they were asking for and they are going to end up signing a much-improved contract after all. They just pissed away a few million dollars in the process. The CEO has proven to be clueless -- how did he expect to cover all this flying during a strike where your entire pilot group is on the same page?! Amateur!


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8524 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9444 times:

Quoting beryllium (Reply 38):
Let's not exaggerate. Nobody was forcing anyone to accept anything. The slavery in this country has ended in the XIX century...

My goodness, here we go again, same O, same O. Please, if there is anything we do not need on here is the tired old corporate line. "We are here to make money", well the workers are there to make money so they can afford to live and pay their bills. We are not children, we are not naive, we do not need speechs. We even know about sex, imagine that!    



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineberyllium From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9505 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 42):
well the workers are there to make money so they can afford to live and pay their bills. We are not children, we are not naive, we do not need speechs. We even know about sex, imagine that!

Naive children (who know a lot about sex), should also know that they get their money from the employer. They should remember that it is the employer who pays the workers' wages.
Because when naive children grow up without that knowledge, they often assume that they are entitled. And when those naive children end up in the pilot profession, it has a potential to create big problems for lots of innocent people, as we have recently seen...


25 FlyPNS1 : Not really considering that MLB players are unionized and have gone on strike. Of course, it wasn't individual teams, but all baseball players in the
26 GoBoeing : So, 98% of Spirit pilots are naive. And 5,500 Northwest Airlines pilots were naive in 1998? And Airtran, Trans States, and Pinnacle pilots are also a
27 Post contains images WarRI1 : Here we go again, more speechs, more corporate lines. My brain is getting fried. Can someone pass the Kool Aid? I like Grape flavoring. Make mine str
28 Post contains images usafdo : BRAVO...BRAVO...BRAVO to the Spirit pilots.
29 Post contains images beryllium : It IS funny. And also, it is all about "me, me, me"... To be frank, NK pilots remind me of Latrell Sprewell, who a few years ago declined $21 million
30 asuflyer05 : The problem is airlines made the mistake of tying pilot compensation to the financial performance of the company. Bad string of quarters, "hey we need
31 xdlx : Spirit management proved how incompetent they truly are, they insulted the pilot group, did not prepared for the event, and the FAA finaly said enoug
32 GoBoeing : Everyone, this right here is why ALPA does not spend money on public relations but rather spends its time and funds with lawmakers and the FAA. Why s
33 Mir : Pilots work twice as much as 80 hours a month also. I hope you realize that. -Mir
34 thegreatRDU : What the hell are the terms....
35 FutureFO : Also the body of the Union has to vote and accept the TA. If they don't then they don't go back to work. Also the flight attendants were all furloughe
36 CBPhoto : A good step in the right direction, however, they are not out of it yet! Keep strong Spirit employees!!
37 Boeing1970 : You use NWA as an example? You're kidding right? 5,500 pilots no longer exist at Northwest because Northwest effectively died. You know that right? T
38 413X3 : these same pilots also take on the most debt, have the most responsibilities, and the hardest workload. not to mention one mistake and it can costs h
39 beryllium : There are federal rules/regulations which define maximum amount of hours that a pilot can work in a certain period of time, right? I realize that, an
40 flybyguy : Double of what? $69? I'm sure you'd be whistling a different tune if your airfare was on the order of $200+ difference. I hate US Airways, American a
41 futureualpilot : Nobody in this country is forced to start working anywhere, but are they not allowed to push to better their QOL while they are there? Are they not a
42 beryllium : Pilots take on the most debt... Wasn't it their career choice? Have you been to college? Haven't you been told that there are no guarantees that work
43 AWACSooner : No...it was about $200 to fly on...wait for it...WN! I took the then-boarding melee and singing FA's over NK's nickel and dime tactics.
44 futureualpilot : Yes, does that mean we do not deserve to be fairly and adequately compensated? We do have egos, we have to in our line of work. We may not carry the
45 beryllium : The laws are the laws. No matter how outdated they are, we are supposed to go by them until they are changed by the new ones. As for the work rules -
46 futureualpilot : And that makes them ok? They are clearly inadequate and need to be addressed. Why not make it company policy to abide by stricter work rules? You won
47 GoBoeing : Oh wow. Wow! Northwest effectively died, and the former Northwest pilots should get up every morning and bow to Atlanta. Are you really that out of t
48 DocLightning : Doesn't work that way in aviation, unfortunately. If you have 15 years of seniority at AA and you get fed up and quit and go to UA, you have 0 years
49 beryllium : That makes them OK as long as they are in place and haven't been amended by those entities whose area of competence includes revising those rules and
50 AWACSooner : Dude, I get the same "You mean you ENJOY being the bus driver?" crap from some of the backenders on my jet. Let it roll...enjoy that you get paid to
51 futureualpilot : That is about an ignorant statement as I've read on these boards in a long time. I fully expect you to stand by that statement the next time somebody
52 futureualpilot : I usually ignore it but to have it come from someone who supposedly respects pilots, then say this irks me. The average passenger probably doesn't kn
53 FlyHossD : Without labor, there would be no money or capital. "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could nev
54 GoBoeing : I thought of another thing, a pretty big one too. Know what a pension is? Guess which side of the Delta pilots still have a pension? Hint: you think
55 thrufru : Interesting comparison. And no, it is not the same. A bus driver's mistake or a malfunction of his vehicle can in no way be compared to similar occur
56 Post contains images flyorski : ..Uh, maybe just the CEO and other senior management...
57 thrufru : Again, for someone claiming to be working on the management side of the business, it amazes me that you could make any of these statements excepting
58 FlyHossD : "and those folks work not 80 hours a month, but more than twice as much" I believe that you know that's a lie. If it's a not a lie, it shows how unin
59 Post contains images MLD9S : Wow....and to think I actually read this thread because I thought with the title, "Spirit & Pilots Reach A Tentative Agreement," there might actua
60 jerseyguy : Really? You should contact your states attorney general. Your employer is violating the minimum wage act. If you are somehow exempt for some reason y
61 DashTrash : I don't think much has been opened to the public on the TA. In my opinion, better to keep that info confidential to the guys who have to live with it
62 Boeing1970 : If it wasn't for Delta there'd be no one to fund those pensions. So yeah, start bowing.
63 thrufru : You're missing the point. Crew are not paid based on report time. We are paid based on flight time. Per diem compensation has nothing to do with mini
64 beryllium : I am not an executive. I am in the lower level of management (I do not get bonuses, by the way), and we are not discussing me, my fundamental lack of
65 beryllium : Totally agree with both quotes. Labor is a very important part of any business... But it is still "master and servant" relationship, and it is the em
66 FlyPNS1 : Compared to many regional pilots, bus drivers do actually make more. The bottomline is that NK can afford to pay its pilots more. In fact, I would be
67 Boeing1970 : And for every pilot screaming for a raise there is another out there looking for work willing to accept the pay just to have a job. Same for any othe
68 beryllium : It's quite possible that the rich owners of NK can afford to pay every NK employee twice or even three times as much as everyone is earning right now
69 GoBoeing : That's fine. And when they find their next job, they can immediately start trying to make it better. I'm looking forward to walking the picket line w
70 beryllium : Maybe the entire country should go on strike and demand raises, then? The economy seems to be gradually rebounding, and companies in various industri
71 Alias1024 : They did. Spirit found it couldn't run the business without them.
72 jerseyguy : Quitting does not include harassing anyone who would take your place for the pay that in this case Spirit wanted to pay. It definitely doesn't mean p
73 beryllium : They did not. Quitting is a quiet thing - you take your stuff and go away, ready to start a new chapter in your life. Also, when you quit, you are no
74 silentbob : It would be nice if the one or two people that continually blow up these topics with their anti or pro union rhetoric would get their posts deleted fo
75 jerseyguy : I don't think any of the details are public, if they were they'd make it into the thread regardless of our disagreements
76 Alias1024 : Since when did attempting to find another job become a requirement for quitting a job? I guess if I hit the powerball jackpot I won't be able to quit
77 jerseyguy : Not really, anybody who replaced them would be harassed. It didn't but it isn't the point, the point is that you don't picket your company and intimi
78 nkops : Looks like they started earlier than expexted... flight 436 FLL-ORD first departure to leave for NK.
79 FlyPNS1 : And it's quite possible they would never give out raises and just keep giving themselves raises. The pilots have no authority to speak for other empl
80 thrufru : I am glad you're not comparing pilots to bus drivers. It would appear, however, that I am most certainly not the only person here that believed that
81 beryllium : I don't think anyone here is interested in what you do, or what I do. This thread is not about me or you, or what we do for a living. To make long st
82 beryllium : Yes, it is possible. It is their business, and it is up to them to decide what to pay to the labor. A "good" owner will give a raise, when the time i
83 ThePinnacleKid : I have no intent on joining this back and forth rhetoric of pro-union vs anti-union blood bath... I have my opinions and have stated them in other thr
84 jerseyguy : Ok, if it takes too long and is uneconomical to hire replacements for pilots why care so much about scabs. They can't really hurt you, the time and c
85 ThePinnacleKid : It's because of the notion that someone would be willing to blatantly undercut you and the profession as a whole... it's not because they pose any re
86 beryllium : Let's not fool ourselves, thinking that pilots are that irreplaceable. Their "irreplaceability" to a very large extent is artificially created and ma
87 xdlx : One thing management has not figure out in the almost 100 years of airline operations. Is how to run an airline without pilots..... hence the line in
88 beryllium : Celebrating their "toughness" NK pilots should keep in mind that they could all easily end up in unemployment lines (with all their "underestimated p
89 PeterPuck : Hahahahahahahahaha........etc.
90 WarRI1 : That is what did not ring true to me also, all this concern for the inconvienced. I think it was a false front to once again condemn the union pilots
91 WarRI1 : Sorry, it was Master, Servant, not Master, Slave. There is difference, not as much as we would like, but a difference.
92 DashTrash : Is that why they furloughed the F/A's and various assorted other employees?
93 jerseyguy : Being you only think about yourself, I'm not surprised concern for others is a foreign concept for you. "The inconvenienced" are the people who make
94 FlyHossD : It doesn't work the way you seem to think it does. Just because a pilot has previous experience on an aircraft type, that doesn't mean that pilot can
95 beryllium : I don't know what it might tell you about me. Anyway, I am not advocating "parent/child" or "cop/criminal" relationship between employer and employee
96 norcal : I think you'd find that some of the greatest CEOs in airline history like Gordo and Herb would not agree with the Master/Servant metaphor. Men like t
97 Alias1024 : Then what is it when the employer puts out the "help wanted" sign and places advertisements on employment websites and in the newspaper classified ad
98 beryllium : Totally agree. Cooperation between employers and employees is the best outcome of all. But, what is fairness, and who is to tell where is the border
99 Alias1024 : Isn't the employee applying for the job because they too have a business need? They need to generate income just as the business needs to hire an emp
100 Post contains images beryllium : The applicant has a personal need to have a job, because he has a personal need to feed himself and his family. The difference is that business adver
101 norcal : It's a mutual decision, the employee has to be willing to work for 50K just as much as the employer has to be willing to pay 50K.
102 beryllium : The employer has to make an offer, and the applicant/employee has to either accept it, or decline. If he accepts - he starts/continues working. If he
103 thrufru : All true, but when in the course of doing business one side of this pair attempts to modify the salary scale or work rules under which the agreement
104 thrufru : Sorry, I prematurely posted without noting one last thing. While an individual is under no legal obligation to think of others when entering into neg
105 jerseyguy : Yes except when you strike you say "No and you can't hire anyone willing to work under these terms or we will intimidate them"
106 GoBoeing : Absolutely. Plus, with as much that has been done in the past, I don't know if much future intimidation/consultation of potential scabs is necessary.
107 beryllium : You've probably misunderstood what I wrote. When I said "he is free to go where he thinks he would be able to get what he wants (without threatening
108 WarRI1 : When a true union man goes on strike. First, he looks out for his fellow union members. So he does not only think of himself. I was a true union man
109 jerseyguy : I'm gonna take it you don't understand where your paycheck really comes from and yeah people tend to get a little pissed when they are delayed for up
110 beryllium : You are seriously saying that NK pilots went on strike "for their fellow co-workers, even non-union", and were trying "to help to improve working con
111 F9Animal : 110% agree! AMEN!!!! First, WE look out for our fellow brothers and sisters. Union members need to stick together, and stand strong against these exe
112 thrufru : While it's generally not the case at the legacy carriers or even the national LCCs like NK that pilots struggle, lets not forget that today, the vast
113 norcal : Did you forget that they were in negotiations for 4 years and had gone 8 years with out a new contract? Regular negotiations can be dragged on indefi
114 jerseyguy : Ok then help me to understand whats wrong with this notion? Ok, you don't like your contract, negotiations have broken down and you decide to strike.
115 norcal : No one gave me the right to do anything. I'm not involved in Spirit in any way shape or form. However, as an outside pilot I would respect their righ
116 beryllium : That was his career choice, so whom he has to blame? Everyone, who attended a college or a university, knows that education is expensive. And everyon
117 futureualpilot : Why is he unreasonable for expecting a return on investment? Did you not expect the same when you went to college? Or put in whatever time and effort
118 beryllium : I am not saying he is unreasonable. All college students expect that some day their efforts, time, and money invested in their studies will be reward
119 Post contains images WarRI1 : You see the same mentality on here when it comes to unions. I am the Boss, I own the company, I will not be told how to treat MY employees, I will TE
120 Post contains images WarRI1 : My goodness! What Kool Aid are you drinking? Ahem! There are Labor Laws in this country, not great ones, but they did get passed without your imput.T
121 beryllium : Not exactly so. Employees are free to discuss with the bosses all their concerns. The bosses do listen. And it is quite possible to convince them wit
122 WarRI1 : I guess it is back to the farms then. Not so in this case, the Pilots seemed to have called the tune. They went on strike, they did not get fired, th
123 beryllium : NK strike was a lawful strike. RLA permits it, and I've never said that it was against the law. It still perfectly qualifies as sabotage, though. And
124 futureualpilot : Demand at gunpoint? What about negotiate for years over? What about expect management to keep good on their promises to give back the concessions, if
125 futureualpilot : If management is so unwilling to reach an agreement with its pilot group that the process continues all the way to a strike, is management then not a
126 WarRI1 : I detect a pattern, now that you have conceded that the strike was lawful, under out labor laws, you then modify and find another reason to continue
127 beryllium : The hostility from the employee groups towards management is, unfortunately, wide-spread, and in the majority of instances, quite baseless. From what
128 futureualpilot : Yeah, you're right. Asking your employees to concede salary, benefits, days off, increasing the length of their average work day, farming out mainlin
129 Post contains links beryllium : Slashing tires on a plane is one of the forms of sabotage. Strike (including lawful, under RLA) is another. "Sabotage is a deliberate action aimed at
130 futureualpilot : Again, you shirk the blame squarely on the pilots. You fail to understand that it is a two way street, and that both parties are equally to blame. I
131 beryllium : What is the "industry standard"? Let's take MLB. A-Rod (New York Yankees) makes more than the entire Kansas City Royals team. Who is compensated acco
132 futureualpilot : A pay rate on an aircraft of the same or similar type that is not more than a few dollars an hour difference than that of another company. Yeah, the
133 F9Animal : And I ask you this! What airline would exist without piss poor management (plenty of it out there for sure, and they still exist)? Imagine if an airl
134 jerseyguy : Think of it this way, You own a landscaping business. Mr. Smith hires you to do some landscaping, mow the lawn, etc. You charge him $100 a month. Mr.
135 Mir : Disregarding the fact that MLB and the airlines are two completely different industries, you'll notice that contracts signed by one player do tend to
136 GoBoeing : Federal laws. Thanks for playing!
137 jersey777 : The big difference is that fact that as an employee of a company you are not a customer. Just like you can't fire a landscaper because he is hispanic
138 jerseyguy : I'm sorry my computer must be malfunctioning, you just didn't equate racism with a person's right to strike?? No read the example again, the "employe
139 jersey777 : You are trying to oversimplify work rules and I am giving you an analogy between what you can and can't do. There are laws in this country that allow
140 GoBoeing : Jerseyguy, the bottom line is, we as airline workers have earned the ability to legally go on strike after a very long, drawn out process that can't e
141 jerseyguy : I'm sorry I'm using the wrong words, legally you have a right to strike. But just because something is legal doesn't make it morally right.
142 GoBoeing : Perfect example. Rest and duty rules. They are legal but by no means safe. So we go on strike to have a contract that is more restrictive than those
143 jerseyguy : Ok, explain to me how pilots are different from my example.
144 Post contains images WarRI1 : The big buck guys are good at outsourcing other peoples jobs. I think we have noticed that. Their jobs though, do not fall into that category. They a
145 jersey777 : Well, I went on strike for 5 days in 1993 and I never once questioned my morality. What I was proud of was the fact that I stood up for I believed in
146 jerseyguy : Strikes for true safety reasons I don't have a problem with. This was not the case, this was primarily about money, ALPA said in many news articles t
147 Post contains images WarRI1 : You and anyone who acts and thinks that way have my respect and MORAL support. We have read the words to describe how some management looks at the US
148 WarRI1 : How can anyone in this Shark infested country and economy deny that money is everything. Is not the 10 million dollar Exec. worried about money? "Sho
149 GoBoeing : As long as you live in a free country where workers are free to organize you are just going to have to sit back and watch us negotiate contracts and
150 beryllium : OK. Let's go one by one... They are not wrong for wanting to be given back. They are wrong in sabotaging the business and terrorizing the "sympathizi
151 beryllium : Let's put this demagogy aside. You know perfectly well that I am not comparing 2 industries - MLB and airlines. I am comparing 2 teams in the same in
152 beryllium : Jealousy allover the place... Who are you to be looking into others' pockets? And "8 million dollar men" are replaced, and quite often, if they do no
153 GoBoeing : Exactly -- who is Ben Baldanza to ask the pilots for a paycut when the company makes money. Not to keep bringing Benny up but he has obviously not de
154 beryllium : Baldanza is an executive, appointed by the owners of NK to run the airline operation. He is responsible for all aspects of the business, and every em
155 futureualpilot : No, they undertook a lawful action as the result of the failure to reach an agreement. The failure is on both sides. Management was as much at fault
156 futureualpilot : And when the company loses money it is acceptable to ask the employees to give up their own potential earnings? If bonuses start from the top and tri
157 F9Animal : Not just true justice, but it makes complete sense! And cents! There is nobody in this industry in the executive role that deserves the money they ma
158 beryllium : Good job... I see some progress here - "failure is on both sides"... Yes, it is on both sides. But, it is the employer who is in charge. Hence, if an
159 beryllium : What he has asked to give this time? IIRC, there was something about $70m payouts in the span of 5 years, with 4 days of rest between the work days.
160 Post contains images beryllium : Yeah, all your problems are solely because of those bafoons, who drink finest wines. Just out of curiosity - You work for F9? Your CEO is a "bafoon",
161 PlanesNTrains : Not necessarily a bad idea, though as someone in management (non-airline) I'm not sure I want to be the guinea pig. A contract? Unless the employee h
162 Post contains images F9Animal : No, I do not work for F9 anymore. Still love that airline though! I think a majority of the current CEO's are bafoons. Especially Tilton. I can name
163 WarRI1 : You are entitled to that opinion about unions in a company you run. We are all entitled to an opinion. I also would like to praise your realistic vie
164 GoBoeing : He may have done a great job in 2009. But in 2010, he misread about a hundred warning signs from a pretty important group of his employees. That grou
165 jerseyguy : Sorry I didn't make that clear in this case, you are renegotating a contract, the contract has expired. The pilots were in the same place, they curre
166 beryllium : Don't exaggerate calling NK pilots loyal and hardworking. They showed it all quite clearly. They are loyal to the gang (ALPA), not to the employer wh
167 GoBoeing : You've now completely lost all credibility from those of us who know anything about the RLA. You think that half a decade of negotiations with a mana
168 beryllium : I've never thought that you had any such credibility at all, to begin with... As for negotiations, management was talking to a similar wall, just the
169 PlanesNTrains : It is easy to "realize that the company's interests are important" when you are paid industry-leading pilot wages. Do you think for one moment that W
170 GoBoeing : That's nice. We (pilots in this thread) don't really care. We're the ones who are actually in the unions you hate, and we will be for as long as nece
171 beryllium : WN pilots had moved to the higher end of that spectrum only a few years ago (after legacies had slashed their labor costs in bankruptcies in recent y
172 FlyHossD : Have you ever read the Railway Labor Act? It's highly unfavorable to labor. A strike is a last resort that nobody wants. I know I won't convince you
173 beryllium : I have read the synopsis about RLA, and I know basic things that I need to know. What I do see, though, is that you might have read it, but you have
174 PlanesNTrains : I understand the airline's position, but I was referring more to the environment for the employees. It is interesting that you find plenty of excuses
175 ca2ohHP : Why is Tilton a "bafoon?" Because he runs United like a business? I think he's very well-spoken and has proven his leadership by guiding UA through o
176 Crash65 : It is threads like this that cause me to take months long vacations away from Airliners.net. The closed minded, partially informed opinions, that get
177 FlyHossD : It seems that your synopsis was flawed, the R.L.A. covered employee groups cannot just strike. A strike is the end of a very long process, years and
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