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IND To Europe?  
User currently offlinefedex1 From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 29 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5119 times:

This was talked about 4-5 years ago when I was last on, but any chance that we could see a carrier take a chance and fly IND-CDG or IND-FRA... anything?? You people know more about this then I do! Any answers would be great!! Thanks!

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFX772LRF From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 675 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5069 times:

I would doubt it. There really isn't a demand, as far as I know. Especially with ORD being a three or four hour drive from IND, you could just as easily drive to ORD and grab a flight there. Also, with the frequency of the flights that operate between IND and places like ORD or ATL, there's really no better option than to just take a short flight to a larger airport.

Some people may argue that there's cargo opportunity there, but really FX has that covered. If something needs to go from IND to somewhere in Europe, FX probably has got it covered - especially with IND being FX's second largest operation in the world.

From an operational standpoint, I'm also not sure that the location of the international gates - gates A4 and A5 - would be able to handle an aircraft large enough to operate IND-CDG or IND-FRA. There would probably have to be a purpose-built satellite terminal to handle the large aircraft in and out of the airport - most likely linked by bus or maybe a train to the terminal.

-Noah   

Edit for missing words.

[Edited 2010-06-18 19:12:15]


Cleared to IAH via CLL 076 radial/BAZBL/RIICE3, up to 3k, 7k in 10, departure on 134.3, squawk 4676, Colgan 9581.
User currently offlinefedex1 From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4953 times:

Thank you sir for your well put reason! I just wish we could get one.. I fly alot to FRA , and with Eli Lilly Headquartered here, and others you would think it would work, plus the Indianapolis 500 ( I know that is a 1 time deal) but it does bring alot of tourists to the city...

User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4567 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4929 times:

Quoting FX772LRF (Reply 1):
From an operational standpoint, I'm also not sure that the location of the international gates - gates A4 and A5 - would be able to handle an aircraft large enough to operate IND-CDG or IND-FRA. There would probably have to be a purpose-built satellite terminal to handle the large aircraft in and out of the airport - most likely linked by bus or maybe a train to the terminal.

Actually one of the gates (I don't remember which one) will support a 747-400. The facilities are there. And they are finishing up a belly cargo building almost next door to the international gates which makes the loading of cargo into an international flight much easier and quicker.

The proximity to ORD is honestly irrelevant. The whole point to having the n/s service is to avoid the layover and unnecessary delays. The point is being able to arrive at IND and get right to business instead of making that 3 or 4 hour drive from ORD or having the layover and then the connecting flight. But forgetting all that stuff and demand issues the facilities are there and more than sufficient to handle widebody service.

BTW there is even going to be a Sky Club right by the international gates.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlinefedex1 From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4869 times:

So then my question is this... why would IND build those places ie cargo areas, and gates to support a 747-400 if we will NEVER get any non-stop Europe or where ever here??? Isn't that kinda foolish to waste money??

User currently offlineFX772LRF From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 675 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4869 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 3):
And they are finishing up a belly cargo building almost next door to the international gates

What's the purpose of this building? Is there a high demand of belly cargo in and out of IND?

Quoting Indy (Reply 3):
The whole point to having the n/s service is to avoid the layover and unnecessary delays.

Well, yes, I understand that. But n/s service is a sign of a high demand on a route, and that the carrier believes that the route will make money, or encourage other routes to make money through connections and whatnot.

I think it would take a really strong carrier with some backing to create a focus city in IND and start developing the airport more toward a gateway to the rest of the world before you would start seeing service from IND to Europe or other continents. I just don't see IND as being that sort of airport.

Quoting fedex1 (Reply 4):
So then my question is this... why would IND build those places ie cargo areas, and gates to support a 747-400 if we will NEVER get any non-stop Europe or where ever here??? Isn't that kinda foolish to waste money??

Future expansion probably. Sort of what I touched on above about IND expanding as an airport. Also, carriers may be getting good amounts of belly cargo in and out (which I doubt, but it's still possible.)

-Noah   

Edit to quote other post.

[Edited 2010-06-18 21:01:11]

[Edited 2010-06-18 21:01:31]


Cleared to IAH via CLL 076 radial/BAZBL/RIICE3, up to 3k, 7k in 10, departure on 134.3, squawk 4676, Colgan 9581.
User currently offlinelv From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2005 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4721 times:

A) there are already plenty of IND to Europe flights... it's with that airline on the south side of the airport that flies a lot of three holers and paints the tail purple.

B) don't count on Lilly for nothing. the company is outsourcing everything it can. Besides, the city is not just one company. Grant it Lilly is a huge employer but there are a lot of other companies in Indy that send people to Europe all the time. So Lilly is just a small piece to the puzzle

C) I'm curious to see if all this buzz about DL possibly setting up a focus city at IND comes true.


User currently offlinefedex1 From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4718 times:

Thanks LV... do you think that IND could support a 90-100 flight per day focus city?? With CVG down the way DAY, ORD, DTW, STL...???

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7615 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4697 times:

If so, it would probably come in the form of a 75L to LHR from AA.


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinefedex1 From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4659 times:

AA would run a 757 to LHR from IND??? Does AA really have a loyal crowd here at IND??????

User currently offlineFX772LRF From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 675 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4638 times:

I guess with the new terminal, IND technically has the infrastructure to expand to being able to handle a 75L load. I figure a '57 could probably fit in either of the international gates, with a tight squeeze. I just don't really see where the passengers would come from. There just doesn't seem to be any demand there for flights to Europe with ORD closeby. People around here have more or less become accustomed to the mindset that if you want an international flight to Europe or Asia, you head to ORD - that being a short flight or a short drive (at least in my mind, a 3 hour drive is pretty short).

The only thing I could think of is that either a '57 once or twice a week, or maybe a Lufthansa PrivatAir BBJ 2-3 times weekly to somewhere like AMS or FRA. I could nearly see that being feasible.

-Noah   



Cleared to IAH via CLL 076 radial/BAZBL/RIICE3, up to 3k, 7k in 10, departure on 134.3, squawk 4676, Colgan 9581.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32787 posts, RR: 72
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4632 times:

Quoting FX772LRF (Reply 10):

The only thing I could think of is that either a '57 once or twice a week,

1-2x weekly does not work.

Quoting FX772LRF (Reply 10):
or maybe a Lufthansa PrivatAir BBJ 2-3 times weekly to somewhere like AMS or FRA.

Never going to happen. There is zero market.

Indianapolis has the potential to support a 5-7w 757 service to London. IND officials should knock on AA/BA's door.



a.
User currently offlineFX772LRF From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 675 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4601 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
Indianapolis has the potential to support a 5-7w 757 service to London.

From where? I'd like to see numbers.

-Noah   



Cleared to IAH via CLL 076 radial/BAZBL/RIICE3, up to 3k, 7k in 10, departure on 134.3, squawk 4676, Colgan 9581.
User currently offlinefedex1 From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4537 times:

I didn't realize IND had strong ties to London... I just dont see AA adding that flight at all. I am surprised NWA never started a transatlantic flight out of IND..

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32787 posts, RR: 72
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4486 times:

Quoting fedex1 (Reply 13):
I didn't realize IND had strong ties to London... I just dont see AA adding that flight at all. I am surprised NWA never started a transatlantic flight out of IND..

Starting in October, AA, IB and BA will be a unified airline across the Atlantic - it would be just as much a British Airways flight as it would be American Airlines.

Its not that IND has strong ties to London - but London is, like with just about every single U.S. city, IND's largest local market to Europe. The IND-Europe market is around 180 daily passengers, IIRC.

Will IND-LHR happen? I personally think there are more important markets like BDL and DTW to hit up first, but absolutely in 3-5 years when we will undoubtedly see BA/AA look into smaller markets, IND should garner consideration.



a.
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3456 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4321 times:

The reason there will be no Europe non-stop from IND because their is no hub there not even a major focus city. Look at how DL is struggling with their PIT-CDG service..again no hub/FC and PIT even serves more (not by much) pax than IND.


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7615 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4221 times:

Quoting fedex1 (Reply 9):
AA would run a 757 to LHR from IND??? Does AA really have a loyal crowd here at IND??????
Quoting fedex1 (Reply 13):
I didn't realize IND had strong ties to London... I just dont see AA adding that flight at all. I am surprised NWA never started a transatlantic flight out of IND..
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
Starting in October, AA, IB and BA will be a unified airline across the Atlantic

See MAH's response. AA and BA will be one airline across the Atlantic with ATI soon. Given that, it opens up the door to serve some smaller markets with the 75L. The UK is by far a larger market to the US, so LHR makes the most since if IND is going to have Transatlantic service.

But it might take a few years. As MAH said, BDL and DTW should be priorities.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days ago) and read 4152 times:

There is not even a n/s flight IND-SFO ???

Don't forget CargoLux LUX-IND flights plus FedEx I wouldn't count on a Pax flight to Europe anytime soon


User currently offlineFX772LRF From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 675 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days ago) and read 4140 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 17):
There is not even a n/s flight IND-SFO ???

Oddly, no there is not. There is a n/s IND-LAX flight, and even a n/s IND-CUN flight, but no SFO.

-Noah   



Cleared to IAH via CLL 076 radial/BAZBL/RIICE3, up to 3k, 7k in 10, departure on 134.3, squawk 4676, Colgan 9581.
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4567 posts, RR: 18
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days ago) and read 4110 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
The IND-Europe market is around 180 daily passengers, IIRC.

I used to have the exact numbers on my site but closed it down recently. I had gotten the numbers from the Department of Commerce and the IND to Europe and Europe to IND numbers were more than enough to justify service. The numbers didn't specify where in Europe the people were going to or from but just that the Europe was the place.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
Will IND-LHR happen? I personally think there are more important markets like BDL and DTW to hit up first

I doubt BDL happens again. It couldn't work twice. Just not that big of a market.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 17):
There is not even a n/s flight IND-SFO ???

Nope. No SFO, SEA or PDX. No MSY, PIT, JAX, STL, SAT, AUS or BDL either.

Quoting FX772LRF (Reply 5):
What's the purpose of this building? Is there a high demand of belly cargo in and out of IND?

I personally didn't think there was all that much. I think part of the problem is that the cargo facilities for the individual airlines were located too far away from the new terminal. I just can't see much cargo going in or out with so much RJ service.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineFX772LRF From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 675 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4018 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 19):
I personally didn't think there was all that much. I think part of the problem is that the cargo facilities for the individual airlines were located too far away from the new terminal. I just can't see much cargo going in or out with so much RJ service.

Yeah, even with the mainline metal that comes in from DL, AA, US and the like, I don't think I've ever seen any cargo being loaded onto the aircraft. It just doesn't seem like IND would be a place that had a high demand for belly cargo. Sure, some every once in awhile, but other than that...I don't see where there was a justification for a new belly cargo building.

Honestly, there are better things to spend money on at IND.

-Noah   



Cleared to IAH via CLL 076 radial/BAZBL/RIICE3, up to 3k, 7k in 10, departure on 134.3, squawk 4676, Colgan 9581.
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7615 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3994 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 19):
I doubt BDL happens again. It couldn't work twice. Just not that big of a market.

Thats because the flight was to AMS instead of LHR. It could work to LHR.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3456 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3986 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 19):
Nope. No SFO, SEA or PDX. No MSY, PIT, JAX, STL, SAT, AUS or BDL either.

No COS either  



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineBAKJet From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3970 times:

Quoting FX772LRF (Reply 10):
you head to ORD - that being a short flight or a short drive (at least in my mind, a 3 hour drive is pretty short).

Yes, but the thing is that IND draws passengers from a pretty large area. For example, IND-ORD is a 3 1/2 to 4 hour drive, but from where I live, ORD in a 4 1/2 to 5 hour drive away.


User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3753 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3966 times:

Quoting fedex1 (Reply 9):
AA would run a 757 to LHR from IND??? Does AA really have a loyal crowd here at IND??????

AA has about a 8.8% market share at IND (down from last year due to the dehubbing of STL) and is the 5th most popular airline at IND, behind DL at 25.2%, WN at 17.8%, FL at 15.7%, and US at 13.2%.

With DL having almost three times the market share of AA at IND, a DL IND-CDG flight makes more sense than an AA on IND-LHR. Plus, as mentioned earlier, DL is opening the Sky Club soon, which would make a DL flight more attractive to premium pax.

Quoting Indy (Reply 19):
No SFO, SEA or PDX. No MSY, PIT, JAX, STL, SAT, AUS or BDL either.

Notably, all those aforementioned cities were served from IND at one time or another.

NW served SFO, SEA (seasonal), AUS, SAT, and BDL during the focus city days. MSY was served by WN pre-Katrina; after Katrina, FL tried MSY. It didn't last. FL also tried SFO with no success. Of course, US served PIT during the hub days, and IND-STL was one of the final AA STL hub routes to be cut. And I think I remember either NW or WN serving JAX, but I'm not sure. Could IND support those cities again? Given that Indianapolis is (I think) the third-biggest metro in the lower Midwest, I feel that it could support at least the West Coast flights, and either WN or FL starting MSY and/or JAX. And while STL could support WN given their recent STL growth, PIT will restart when pigs fly.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
25 commavia : Just because Delta is a larger airline at Indianapolis does not necessarily mean that a flight to Paris would be stronger than a flight to London. As
26 Indy : I don't remember why I looked the information up but there seems to be a number of Indianapolis business connections in and around Paris. CDG may be
27 Indy : Honestly there are so many holes in the U.S. network for IND that I'd almost rather see service established or returned to them before I see the addit
28 Post contains images FX772LRF : That's what I've been thinking, but I was waiting for someone else to say it. There's a lot more US and Canada expansion out of IND that could be don
29 Indy : I think CO already flies IAH.
30 EMB170 : As Commavia, Mark, and LAX have already said, between the both of them, AA/BA should have enough daily demand to fill a 757 nicely between IND and LHR
31 bigGSFO : Doesn't matter. See Raleigh/Durham. They have a nonstop to London and no non-stops to SFO,SEA... Of course the flight is subsidized, but so what? An
32 TOMMY767 : Exactly. I'd look for DL to expand out of IND and fill some of the holes but not Europe anytime soon.
33 fedex1 : I just don't see any airline adding service to IND for a LONG time... I personally think the new airport was a WASTE of $$... come on what is the NEW
34 Ward86IND : The new building is just to replace the old cargo building which is located on the other side of the airfield over by the old terminal. It takes tugs
35 Post contains images FX772LRF : So this is sort of a sign of future expansion to come, and that they're anticipating change? I would think that no matter the drive time, that there'
36 JaxMan19 : What happened to this flight? It lasted for about 10 years and it just stopped?
37 MSYtristar : FL's attempt at serving IND-MSY was a really poor one...once weekly for something like two months only. The WN flight was a one-stop MDW-IND-MSY and
38 LambertMan : A flight that stopped in Indianapolis from Midway. Not sure why it didn't last; I'd have to guess that the O&D traffic isn't there. No. St. Louis
39 steeler83 : It's struggling because of bad timing on one of the flights (I think for the return to PIT). I think they pushed that flight back so that more connec
40 Indy : They still have a large number of flights out of IND. I think it is about the number NW had at its largest point but not as much as it would have bee
41 goldorak : simply because FRA would be a pure O/D flight, so hard to sustain with no feed on both side, while at CDG, they have the AF/Skyteam feed
42 steeler83 : I get that much. Even with US' massive 500-plus flight/day presence at PIT, the PIT-CDG flight performed badly for US. I guess there was nobody avail
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