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DL 747-400 Utilization To Significantly Increase  
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3163 posts, RR: 13
Posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 22188 times:

With the schedule load of 19JUN, DL has placed the 747-400 back on LAX-NRT eff 31OCT, as well as placing the 747-400 back on NRT-PVG and NRT-HKG up from A332 and A333, respectively.

Given these new route additions to the fleet, this represents the highest utilization of the 747-400 fleet since the merger between NW and DL. For those of you that were hoping for ATL-GRU, ATL-HNL, or any other such routes, right now it looks like it's not going to be in the cards. For the fall, the 744 schedule, for now, appears as such:

JFK-NRT

DTW-NRT
DTW-NGO
DTW-HND

MSP-NRT

LAX-NRT
LAX-HND

NRT-HKG
NRT-MNL
NRT-PVG
NRT-HNL

NGO-MNL

Given this scheduling, DL will be using close to all 16 ships in active rotation - the highest it's been since the merger. Currently, only about 11-12 ships are used in active rotation with several sitting has ready spares around the system.





A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
78 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinem404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2220 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 22029 times:
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Thanks for posting that Transpac. It looks like the big bird is back on the old NW routes. I'm wondering if the crew postings/bases are much responsible for any of that decision.


Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
User currently offlinedlphoenix From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 414 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 21843 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Thread starter):
For the fall, the 744 schedule, for now, appears as such:

Thanks for the list.
Is JFK-TLV switching back to 76T?

DLP


User currently offlineredtailsforever From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 21722 times:

Is the big 744 useage due to the cabin upgrades to Delta standards?

User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9081 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 21719 times:

Quoting dlphoenix (Reply 2):

No it stays on the 744



yep.
User currently offlineMudboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1167 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 21602 times:

If they get PVTs in all of those birds, I just might have to do a run to Asia and back?
I have yet to step foot on a 744.


User currently offlineMadDogJT8D From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 393 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 21117 times:

I am surprised to read that the fleet will be fully utilized in the slower winter season considering DL's previous comments about interior and cabin upgrades slated for the 744's.

User currently offlinesimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 904 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 21040 times:

Quoting MadDogJT8D (Reply 6):
I am surprised to read that the fleet will be fully utilized in the slower winter season considering DL's previous comments about interior and cabin upgrades slated for the 744's.

They have to, because Delta won both DTW-HND and LAX-HND. Otherwise yes.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8091 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 20920 times:
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Quoting Transpac787 (Thread starter):
JFK-NRT

DTW-NRT
DTW-NGO
DTW-HND

MSP-NRT

LAX-NRT
LAX-HND

NRT-HKG
NRT-MNL
NRT-PVG
NRT-HNL

NGO-MNL

With the start of DTW and LAX to Haneda is Delta keeping the DTW and LAX to NRT services. This is similar to teh spring of 2008 when LHR opened to all airlines and mirror flight to LGW were moved or ended.


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9081 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 20781 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 8):

With the start of DTW and LAX to Haneda is Delta keeping the DTW and LAX to NRT services. This is similar to teh spring of 2008 when LHR opened to all airlines and mirror flight to LGW were moved or ended.

No its isn't because NRT is a hub. Unlike LGW, NRT has many intra-Asia flights which need the feed of the largest O/D city(LAX) and the 2nd largest Delta hub(DTW)



yep.
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8091 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 20728 times:
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Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 9):
With the start of DTW and LAX to Haneda is Delta keeping the DTW and LAX to NRT services. This is similar to teh spring of 2008 when LHR opened to all airlines and mirror flight to LGW were moved or ended.

No its isn't because NRT is a hub. Unlike LGW, NRT has many intra-Asia flights which need the feed of the largest O/D city(LAX) and the 2nd largest Delta hub(DTW)



long live the Delta L1011

With the launch of DTW to PVG, HKG and ICN with 777's is there really a need for a DTW to NRT flight with the DTW to HND flight ? And it can't be because of Manila. that market is VFR low yielding. UA keft MNL years ago.


User currently offlineflydreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 20713 times:

This represents a large increase in capacity to Tokyo.

Do they really believe they can fill a 744 from HND-DTW - on top of one on NRT-DTW?

To me, either the NRT or HND flights should move to smaller equipment, at least to start.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineweb500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 692 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 20292 times:

Quoting flydreamliner (Reply 11):
Do they really believe they can fill a 744 from HND-DTW - on top of one on NRT-DTW?

To me, either the NRT or HND flights should move to smaller equipment,

well i guess that the fact that they are sending over two 744 from DTW and LAX to TYO respectavly means that they think they can fill them. not to mention they are stuck in a hole when it comes to the HND route as they basically got those routes because they are operating it on a 744, so if they were to downgrade a route it would have to be NRT



Boiler Up!
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8091 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 20058 times:
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Quoting web500sjc (Reply 12):
well i guess that the fact that they are sending over two 744 from DTW and LAX to TYO respectavly means that they think they can fill them. not to mention they are stuck in a hole when it comes to the HND route as they basically got those routes because they are operating it on a 744, so if they were to downgrade a route it would have to be NRT

DL may have dug itself into using a 744 from DTW to NRT and another to HND because the A330 can't do Detroit to Tokyo & Delta's 777 fleet is largely commited to their very diverse long haul flights to Asia, Israel, Dubai, Australia and South Africa.
On another Asia question, why does NW stil fly to Manila, its VFR traffic many US airlines stopped carrying a long time ago. Maybe if Subic and Clarke military bases were still open but they have been closed for years.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9965 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 20014 times:

Unless I'm mistaken, the DTW/LAX to HND flights have to be on the 744 because that is what DL based their proposal on to the DOT. The question is, how long do they have to stick with this particular equipment?


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 19944 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
On another Asia question, why does NW stil fly to Manila, its VFR traffic many US airlines stopped carrying a long time ago. Maybe if Subic and Clarke military bases were still open but they have been closed for years.




NW now DL has made money flying to MNL for years and continues to do so. The fact that other US carriers have stopped the service has increased profits by a small margin.


User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1260 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 19825 times:

DL pilots are saying that presently DL is training far more 744 pilots than it actually needs for currently announced flying, including scheduled retirements. Speculation is (and it is only speculation) that DL and Boeing may have reached an accomodation for some white tail or "gently used" 744's presently basking in the desert sun. This accomodation may be in part for DL surrendering its early delivery slots for the 787-8 and for the project delays, not to mention that the airplane is not meeting the specifications promised in the contract. Pulling a few extra 744's into the fleet to accomodate the ones being refurbished makes sense and the extra lift could be utilized well. DL will start to see competition from UA on its highly lucrative African routes and may want more 777's sent there leaving openings that a 744 could easily fill.


Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlinebwest From Belgium, joined Jul 2006, 1356 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 19262 times:

The delta colors do look very nice on the 744... (but so did the last NWA livery...)


I love my Airport Job! :)
User currently offlineCaryjack From United States of America, joined May 2007, 290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 18026 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 16):
DL and Boeing may have reached an accomodation for some white tail or "gently used" 744's presently basking in the desert sun.

According to Boeing's site the 744 orders and deliveries balance and I don't believe they've recently built airframes without orders. Are these true white tails or has something else occured, maybe buyers unable to accept deliveries?

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 16):
This accomodation may be in part for DL surrendering its early delivery slots for the 787-8 and for the project delays, not to mention that the airplane is not meeting the specifications promised in the contract.

I would think that any deal for stored airliners would be between Delta and the airline company who stored them, unless those airliners are true white tails owned by Boeing. I guess that you're referring to the 787 as not meeting specifications. Generally speaking, which specifications are you referring to?
Thanks,   
Cary


User currently offlinebmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 17990 times:

Surprising no ATL 744 routings; I guess the emphasis in ATL is more focus on 77Ls for it long-range routes. More traffic out of NRT and DTW makes sense as DTW had these 744 routes before merger, and heavy traffic on Asian routes out of NRT.


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineworldtraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 17806 times:

It is great to see the 744 being well used...
but the schedule you have posted does not mean it will stay that way into the winter.
It is very possible that DL will downgauge some NRT services when HND is finally approved - which it has not been.
DTW in particular now has nonstops to the top destinations in Asia... there simply isn't the demand in the offseason for 744s to HND and NRT (which feeds all of those destinations). Same thing for LAX.

A few whitetail 744s helps Boeing and provides decent low cost lift for DL... with a good fuel hedging program, the 744 has the potential to be in the fleet for a number of years to come.


User currently offlinedc-9-10 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 583 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 17803 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 16):
DL pilots are saying that presently DL is training far more 744 pilots than it actually needs for currently announced flying
, including scheduled retirements. Speculation is (and it is only speculation) that DL and Boeing may have reached an accomodation for some white tail or "gently used" 744's presently basking in the desert sun. This accomodation may be in part for DL surrendering its early delivery slots for the 787-8 and for the project delays, not to mention that the airplane is not meeting the specifications promised in the contract. Pulling a few extra 744's into the fleet to accomodate the ones being refurbished makes sense and the extra lift could be utilized well. DL will start to see competition from UA on its highly lucrative African routes and may want more 777's sent there leaving openings that a 744 could easily fill.

It would be interesting if true. The 747-400 is already in a pretty high density configuration and I wonder if DL is finding that one of the few ways to make the NRT hub work long term is by going after the low yield/ high density market. One way to make that strategy work is to flood the market with all of the seats that the high density 747-400 currently provides. Therefore we might see a 747-400 perpetually on the ATL, JFK, LAX, MSP, HNL and DTW - NRT routes. Continuing on with the theme we could see the 747-400 continue from NRT to MNL, PVG, HKG and maybe BKK and PEK. Remember PMNW had a significant FFP contingent and was already known as the low cost leaders for group travel and consolidators.

Just because DL decides to flood the NRT hub with seats does not mean they will be giving up the US-Asia premium market. At Tokyo they will still have the two HND flights and at NRT they will still have a comprehensive schedule from all over the USA to capture a decent amount of premium Toyko traffic. On the beyond NRT USA-Asia market they will be able to grab premium traffic with their nonstop USA flights to PVG, PEK, ICN, HKG, KIX, and NGO with smaller aircraft and more convenient schedule.

This schedule would also free up several aircraft (777, 330) for DL to explore additional beyond NRT Asia routes or opportunities in India, Africa, or the Middle-East.

The other option is that the extra 747s could also focus on routes that could handle the high density routes that could use the extra capacity such as USA to HNL, TLV, or GRU. They could also be placed on MSP, DTW, etc. - AMS or CDG routes to have the same focus as my analysis on the NRT, low yielding passengers while focusing the higher yielding passengers on the nonstop USA-Europe routes.

Finally, if DL does add 747s to the fleet I wonder if it would be prime time for DL to introduce some sort of premium economy class for international routes.

Naturally I could be dead wrong about all of this and DL may not get any additional 747s, but its fun to speculate.

Dc-9-10


User currently offlineDL747400 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 17084 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 16):
DL pilots are saying that presently DL is training far more 744 pilots than it actually needs for currently announced flying
, including scheduled retirements. Speculation is (and it is only speculation) that DL and Boeing may have reached an accomodation for some white tail or "gently used" 744's presently basking in the desert sun. This accomodation may be in part for DL surrendering its early delivery slots for the 787-8 and for the project delays, not to mention that the airplane is not meeting the specifications promised in the contract. Pulling a few extra 744's into the fleet to accomodate the ones being refurbished makes sense and the extra lift could be utilized well. DL will start to see competition from UA on its highly lucrative African routes and may want more 777's sent there leaving openings that a 744 could easily fill.

These rumors are not new. DL knew that they would likely need additional 744's post-merger once the economy began to improve and business travelers started flying again on a global basis. They have actually been negotiating this and other scenarios with Boeing for more than a year now, and have also been very quietly sniffing around for almost as long. If the price and terms are right, I strongly suspect that we will see a number of additional frames flying in 2011.


User currently offlinevctony From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 16934 times:

Are there any PW-powered 744s currently in the desert or planned to be retired in the near term by airlines? I know UA shed some 744s over the past few years, but I'm not sure about others.

Or, they could go for multiple engine types and get GE-powered 744s from AF (when additional 77Ws and A380s arrive).


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 5721 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 16762 times:

Quoting vctony (Reply 23):
Are there any PW-powered 744s currently in the desert or planned to be retired in the near term by airlines?

Well, looking at Boeing's page, they have quite a few PW-powered 744s available, particularly ex-SQ bird, which are relatively low-cycle (around 5,000). Those might be an option.


25 Post contains links DL747400 : The NRT hub will evolve and I believe it will not exist in it's present form 3-5 years from now. It is widely known that the NW Pacific operation has
26 MaverickM11 : TYO is going to get real ugly, real fast as soon as DL/AA's HND flights ramp up, unles there's a concomitant pulldown in NRT capacity. Idunno about "
27 DTWPurserBoy : UA and SQ both have 744's with Pratt engines stored in the desert. Two of the UA ones are -451 models that were originially scheduled to go to NW and
28 DocLightning : Oh, they would love that... OMG, the braying from Seattle... I doubt it. They're not THAT desperate. BUT, this does make me wonder if 77W's are being
29 mayor : I doubt if DL would want to operated an orphan fleet as small as 4, when it's not really necessary.
30 b6a322 : I think something we also have to keep in mind is that the 744's at DL will eventually need replacement, and Boeing is desperate to get more orders fo
31 B767300ER : As I regularly fly DL268/269 since their inception on the JFK-TLV, on June 1st, I have to say the the flights are completely full in both J and Y. If
32 worldtraveler : ABSOLUTELY NOT. DL is not going after low yield traffic. There is a big difference between the DL and NW NRT hubs. DL has added 2 gateways (SLC and J
33 MaverickM11 : Seeing as flights aren't open for sale and DL.com doesn't even recognize HND at this point, there's no way you know that.
34 MSPNWA : Good to see 744 flying increase. They've been lightly used for a while. Too bad ATL-HNL isn't back in the cards. I'm still hoping for a return in the
35 worldtraveler : I don't have to wait for the flights to be open for sale to know that DL will end up with about 40% of all US-HND seats.. far too few left for other
36 Deltal1011man : And what about PUS,TPE,GUM,MNL,SPN,SIN,BKK,PEK? Again, what your saying is Why fly DTW-JFK if they have DTW-LGA. Same thing. Plus pre-merger DTW-NRT
37 Blueman87 : i want to ride one long time sense i been on one believe that the last 747 i been on was TWA to CDG
38 MaverickM11 : So in short, as I said, you don't know. The question is not whether other carriers will migrate to HND but whether any carrier can double capacity in
39 dldtw1962 : Here in Detroit and surrounding areas in SE Michigan, We have a large population of Asia communities. I know for my clients they would rather use HND
40 GoBoeing : Much closer to the city. Narita is way out from downtown at 1:15 on the train.
41 eta unknown : Only one of the UA -451 birds is stored. I flew SYD-SFO on the other one last November and the interior is 100% UA- nothing NW about it. I suspect eve
42 Transpac787 : That's right. N105UA and N106UA were the two 747-451's delivered to UA. Only N105UA remains in active UA service - N106UA was returned to lessor duri
43 DTWPurserBoy : I have not seen a final floor plan of the new 744 interior modification but I would guess that it will project back into the front of "C" zone for Bus
44 jfk777 : Singapore and Bangkok will probably be the last two flown from and vai NRT since they are so far west. Peking is flown nonstop from SEA and could be
45 Deltal1011man : I'm sure Delta could start them if they wanted to, but they don't fly them, so again i ask why would Delta cut a hub to hub route? What your saying i
46 HNL-Jack : You might want to check the number of seats ANA (Star member) has at HND to the US.
47 DL747400 : Today, DL is able to profitably serve NRT from many U.S. cites, some using 744s. But I see the 744's future at DL being in other parts of Asia or in o
48 azjubilee : PLEASE DL take advantage of the decreased utilization that we see NOW and start the refurb project! The best thing DL could do to launch the HND servi
49 worldtraveler : I am sure there will be some local demand shift to NRT but once again remember that DL will have 40% of the HND-US seat capacity even if NH and JL us
50 OA412 : Nonstop US-PUS flights are simply not feasible which is why NW and now DL operate PUS from NRT.
51 Post contains images Deltal1011man : ok, but NRT-SPN/GUM make money........ because 2 makes more money than one and KE, who has more feed, doesn't have any TPAC flights.
52 Post contains links and images Lufthansa : Just to show what DL can do if it buys some of the upgrade kits offered for 744 bins etc (it's already got the upper deck ones the same as Qantas are
53 Deltal1011man : Boeing has like 7-8 PW powered 744s for sale on there web page, there is no need for DL to add GE birds till they take as many PW's as they can.
54 worldtraveler : it's not a NW invention. DL has been buying used aircraft for years... more than half of the L1011 fleet was built for other airlines yet DL ended up
55 Deltal1011man : Yea they do, and they also know when a plane is better than anything they have be 20-30%. (even with winglets)
56 MaverickM11 : Like I said, you know nothing. DL's website doesn't even know what HND is yet, let alone have flights for sale. All DL has proven so far is that they
57 airbuske : I heard a while back that the new config is 50/338 but I'm not sure if it has been firmed as the mods aren't slated to commence until next year.
58 VC10DC10 : Really -- a lower C capacity than before?? That seems contrary to what I would have expected, but then what do I know.
59 airbuske : The new BE seats are heavier than the current WBC seats and they also take up more space. I was surprised to hear that the seat count in Y would rema
60 Post contains links and images keesje : Entirely clear Delta needs these VLA''s to continue their (NWA) Transpac operations as they have done for the last 20 years. (they were the 747-400 la
61 Lufthansa : Most of us never for a 2nd thought DL would dump the 744. Ditto goes for any merged united. Only way it gets dumped is if its replaced by something o
62 Post contains images Deltal1011man : DL still has more room in MTOW. The 400s are at 870,000 right now and they can go up to 875,000.
63 VC10DC10 : What you said... As exciting as the possibility of more 744s for DL is, I wonder when we'll see any "hard" news of it happening.
64 delimit : Except that DL won't be continuing to fly the same way Northwest did 20 years ago when they ordered the 744s. If you look at how the network is devel
65 Post contains links keesje : It seems they just are, never change a winning team. Delta CEO Richard Anderson underscored the importance that the world's largest air carrier place
66 mayor : Not entirely. When DL was looking at something to replace the Tristars, they looked at the MD-11 and the 744. Bottom line wise, they could get 3 MD-1
67 azjubilee : Boy, I hope those 50/338 configuration rumors are just that... rumors! It seems ridiculous to me to LOWER the high yielding and high revenue producing
68 Deltal1011man : um what does that have to do with VLAs? You do know all the new routes Delta has added so far are on.....wait for it......wait for it......777s. (GAS
69 Transpac787 : True enough. They will do so with used 744's and/or new 773ER's. They will not, however, get any A380's.
70 Transpac787 : Not only rumors, it seems completely impossible. VS and CX use the same floor area for their 744 premium cabins as DL will - the top deck and forward
71 Post contains images keesje : How can you be so sure? Delta is first better using what they have. If they need 500 seaters later on, they'll order them, just like their partners a
72 Post contains images Transpac787 : Because you need only look at DL's route network in a passing glance to realize the A380 offers absolutely no advantage. I'd challenge you to name ON
73 delimit : The chances of a 748 flying for DL are even slimmer than the 380. There might be a 380 flying for DL one day, as you're right...if they determine they
74 Deltal1011man : I wouldn't say that, I'd say the both have less of a chance than ice in hell. Its pretty equal. Richard Anderson has told the employees the 380 is "t
75 delimit : By one day I mean a long time from now. In 10 years a whole lot can happen. Like I said, if they determine they need one, they'll buy one, and if they
76 Deltal1011man : That i agree with but IMO the 77W will replace the 744, but i believe it will be some type of 77WNG.
77 n7371f : That's because they can't sell the service yet. DOT award was tentative.
78 jfk777 : When can DL sell Handea flights ?
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