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IND: A Tough Rival For SBN, FWA, And Others?  
User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3826 posts, RR: 2
Posted (4 years 6 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3897 times:

At one time, IND's catchment area was just Indianapolis itself.

Suddenly, that changed. Between 1989 and 2004, there was the TZ hub buildup, and the arrival of WN and F9 as well. In fact, when I lived in the Indy metro for a while, IND was mentioned as a possible first city for the E190 for B6 (which will probably never occur now due to the AA/B6 codeshare and Eagle IND-JFK). Yet in that 15 year time span and the subsequent period with FL's arrival and the NW focus city, pax service at BMG, HUF, and LAF, once thriving, was wiped out due to relatively close proximity to IND and lower fares. Mainline service at SBN and FWA went away, with both airports losing pax to IND and struggling to attract new service for years to replace lost flights. For example, SBN lost Eagle to ORD and HP to CMH, FWA lost AA to STL and YX to MKE, and both SBN and FWA lost US after the PIT dehubbing. While this happened, IND was seen as "the new airport for LAF/HUF/BMG", and a low-fare alternative to SBN, FWA, and even CVG. EVV pax tended to go to SDF or STL given the tough drive to Indy from Evansville, which I suspect will change after the Interstate 69 extension is done.

But was the fare bar set by TZ too low? At least one competing airport exec that I've met agrees. Several years ago, when an FWA exec came to my college, shortly before G4 announced FWA, he felt that "the problem is not that fares are too high at FWA, it's that fares at IND are too low." He then went on to say that it is tough, but possible for FWA (or whatever) to compete with IND.

Some of the service loss was the airports' own faults: for example, LAF chose AmericanConnection/RegionsAir to STL to replace NW/XJ that was leaving. Yet RegionsAir was known for issues galore, and the STL hub was shrinking (AA had already stopped SBN and FWA from STL at the time). "Learning to LAF" (LAF's slogan) was tough when your connections were not there and the reliability is lousy... hence the last trace of pax service at LAF was gone. Yet others, like SBN, chose the wrong airline (cough)JetAmerica(cough). Yet in the face of adversity, there was success. For a case in point, look at G4 at both SBN and FWA, Eagle FWA-DFW, and TZ's short-lived (but then-popular) SBN/FWA-MDW/IND routes on C8.

Yet IND remains a competitive force. Soon, IND will be launching ads in the Chicago market, encouraging people to "leave ORD and MDW behIND". The goal: make IND an alternative to ORD/MDW for the south suburbs, much like MKE is for the north suburbs. Yet will Chicagoland residents want to drive a longer distance than MDW or ORD to IND, twice as far away from downtown as the Peotone paper airport? Only time will tell.

Is IND a tough rival to other airports within a short to medium drive?


"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1999 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3842 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
Soon, IND will be launching ads in the Chicago market, encouraging people to "leave ORD and MDW behIND". The goal: make IND an alternative to ORD/MDW for the south suburbs, much like MKE is for the north suburbs.

Wow, either IND is getting desperate for PAX or they're being very very wishfull. While people certainly will drive out of the way to save money on a flight, the savings can easily be negated when you factor in gas, time to destination, convenience, and parking. So the savings would have to be extremely significant to attract passengers from a couple hours away. If Gary can't make it as a South Chicago alternative, I don't know why IND thinks they can do different.


User currently offlineEWRandMDW From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3735 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
Soon, IND will be launching ads in the Chicago market, encouraging people to "leave ORD and MDW behIND".

Let me get this straight, IND will try to lure passengers away from using the 2 Chicago airports to enjoy far fewer choices directly from IND or to fly back to Chicago in order to connect? OoooooKayyyy!


User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3826 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3718 times:

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 2):
Let me get this straight, IND will try to lure passengers away from using the 2 Chicago airports to enjoy far fewer choices directly from IND or to fly back to Chicago in order to connect? OoooooKayyyy!

My thoughts exactly.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineTan Flyr From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1920 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3699 times:

I think what FWAERJ meant was that IND would try to increase its' catchment to more north of LAF..the farther SE Chi burbs..ie: more of NW Ind...MAYBE...but I sort of doubt it also. IMHO..the catchment is about 100-120 miles max..while that 120 does put NW Indiana within that circle, the choice comes down to 2hrs on I 65 and 465 or an hour to 90 min to MDW or ORD.

your call.


User currently offlinejetskipper From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 14 hours ago) and read 3571 times:

I can't speak for FWA, but being from SBN I can say MDW draws many more passengers away from SBN than IND. As previously said, it doesn't make much sense to drive to IND to get on SWA and connect when you can drive to MDW and go non-stop at the same price with an hour less drive.

User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4714 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 14 hours ago) and read 3565 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 3):
Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 2):
Let me get this straight, IND will try to lure passengers away from using the 2 Chicago airports to enjoy far fewer choices directly from IND or to fly back to Chicago in order to connect? OoooooKayyyy!

My thoughts exactly.

I dont think they seriously expect to pull from those areas but, the areas inbetween IND and MDW see heavy leakage to both airports, so when people in the battleground areas drive to MDW and see an IND billboard, it can be effective.

CAK's sucess is built upon "attacking the battle ground" areas (areas near CLE)

Think about it, IND has a new terminal to show off, people inbetween IND and MDW have probably been opting for MDW for years, now if the best time for them to have a broad reaching marketing campaign, but I assure you, they arent going for the MDW pax, but rather those being pulled to MDW from the area between MDW and IND.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineEWRandMDW From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 14 hours ago) and read 3542 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
Think about it, IND has a new terminal to show off, people inbetween IND and MDW have probably been opting for MDW for years, now if the best time for them to have a broad reaching marketing campaign, but I assure you, they arent going for the MDW pax, but rather those being pulled to MDW from the area between MDW and IND.

I do understand what the tactic behind IND's campaign is, but the point remains. If in choosing IND you end up connecting (maybe in Chicago) at least once to get somewhere or be held hostage to infrequent service and/or inconvenient schedules, the time spent in getting to MDW or ORD may be well worth it because you'll have plenty of choices and very likely a non-stop to your destination.

As for IND having a new terminal, I would have expected the marketing blitz to have started before it opened, not after. It seems like IND may have been hoping for a bit of the "Field of Dreams" magic. Instead, they built it, but not enough came!


User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4714 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 13 hours ago) and read 3533 times:

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 7):
As for IND having a new terminal, I would have expected the marketing blitz to have started before it opened, not after. It seems like IND may have been hoping for a bit of the "Field of Dreams" magic. Instead, they built it, but not enough came!

Actually you would wait a little bit incase there were any delays or any bugs to work out (see DEN opening). You only get one chance to make a first impression.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 13 hours ago) and read 3530 times:
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SBN has plenty of service from G4 to IWA,LAS,PIE and SFB. Thousands have flown G4 since they started service at SBN and the airline has been an airport success story. The new concourse at South Bend is even going to make things better. Let's not forget Delta who has added more regional jet flights to DTW and an additional afternoon flight to MSP. United Express has numerous RJ flights to ORD some of them CR7's with Explus Service. Continental also has a few flights to CLE also. SBN does loose traffic to SWA at MDW and also has Rail SVC. to Downtown Chicago that makes MDW connections easy with the Orange line. Through all this the loss of USAIr and Eagle SBN has managed to bounce back and come out quite strong. Eagle may be back someday in the future and there is a possibility with the merger of United and Continental for the long lost DEN flights that United used to run mainline to be resumed with the right regional aircraft. Also if the Delta/USAIR slot swap eventually goes thru SBN will get it's first Non-stops to LGA replacing former mainline service of years ago. Sun Country is also asking about starting SBN-NYC service on Notre Dame home game weekends. IND would not pick up much passengers from SBN as stated before most of the leakage goes to MDW .

[Edited 2010-06-21 06:08:15]

User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3826 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 11 hours ago) and read 3453 times:

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 9):
Eagle may be back someday in the future

Since UA has a lock on SBN-ORD, I wonder if Eagle would be more successful with DFW and/or MIA this time? FWA-DFW, currently at 2x/day (it started at 1x daily, and occasionally has been at 3x/day) has been very successful over the past decade for Eagle.

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 9):
Also if the Delta/USAIR slot swap eventually goes thru SBN will get it's first Non-stops to LGA replacing former mainline service of years ago.

As long as WN keeps fighting the DL/US slot swap, don't bet on LGA from SBN, FWA, or anywhere (sadly).

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 9):
Thousands have flown G4 since they started service at SBN and the airline has been an airport success story.

FWA's relationship with G4 has been a very similar success story to SBN's. We have SFB, PIE, and MYR. I wouldn't expect FWA to gain back LAS, as SBN delivers higher yields for longer routes.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1626 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 11 hours ago) and read 3447 times:

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 9):
The new concourse at South Bend is even going to make things better.

I can only hope so. That place is a dump as it is. I never realized how bad it was until I flew in there a couple of weeks ago. Felt like I arrived into an automotive garage.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlinecleared2land From United States of America, joined May 2010, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 10 hours ago) and read 3428 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
For example, SBN lost Eagle to ORD and HP to CMH, FWA lost AA to STL and YX to MKE, and both SBN and FWA lost US after the PIT dehubbing.

I don't ever remember HP serving South Bend since I moved there in 95. The only Ohio service I know of is CVG, DAY and CLE with DAY the only one that is not currently served. I could be wrong, I just don't remember it lol.

I remember when cities such as Milwaukee (Midwest Express), Dayton (Midwest Express), St. Louis (Eagle) and Indianapolis (USAir) were served in the late '90s. However I feel much better about the current service that is offered at SBN.

I don't think IND was the cause at all for Eagle leaving the Bend. Whether or not it is true, American cited other reasons for leaving the Bend, one of which was profit margins when they switched to all jet out of ORD. I don't know the real reason Eagle left but I can tell you that when Eagle and United Express both served ORD at the same time SBN was one of, if not the top, feeder airport into ORD in terms of pax volume (there was an article written a long time ago in AAAE about this). I remember talking to John Schalliol (i've been talking to him for 13 years now about everything), SBN's executive director, the day AA announced that SBN-ORD was being cut. John told me the the load factor on the in/out flights to ORD was extremely high and nobody could figure out why the service was being cut. All Eagle said was profits on the RJ wasn't where they wanted them to be. Strange since United Express has served SBN-ORD for a decade on RJs. Who knows. I just hope they return with DFW or MIA (my money is on DFW).

I lived in SB for a long time and I know for a fact that most people will favor MDW over IND and ORD. If there is going to be any travel outside of the South Bend marketplace it will usually be MDW either by car or South Bend Railroad.

As far as the new addition is concerned it is going to be awesome. The number of gates will not change as the new expansion of A Concourse will replace the gates in C Concourse when it is demolished. There are recent pics on SBN's Facebook page and some neat tweets on their Twitter page.



"Build a mile of highway, go one mile. Build a mile of runway, go anywhere" -Bart Geisler, Director, Aviation Assoc. o
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4588 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 10 hours ago) and read 3410 times:

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 7):
I do understand what the tactic behind IND's campaign is, but the point remains. If in choosing IND you end up connecting (maybe in Chicago) at least once to get somewhere or be held hostage to infrequent service and/or inconvenient schedules, the time spent in getting to MDW or ORD may be well worth it because you'll have plenty of choices and very likely a non-stop to your destination.

The person that makes the drive to IND to save money doesn't care about the scenarios you mention. If frequencies and connections mattered the wouldn't drive 2 or 3 hours to catch a flight. They care about one thing and one thing only... price. Its like the people that would drive from the Cincinnati area to Indianapolis to catch an IND-CVG-XXX flight. This type of flying is attractive to families going on vacation. This type of campaign isn't really designed to go after the business traveler who wants to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible where price may be second to schedule.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineEWRandMDW From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 3398 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 8):
Actually you would wait a little bit incase there were any delays or any bugs to work out (see DEN opening). You only get one chance to make a first impression.

I think there is a difference between changing airports (Stapleton closed and replaced by DIA) and moving to a new terminal at an existing airport. I admit to not being familiar with IND (as it is I fly from MDW and ORD because of where I now live), but when IND was opening the new terminal, was the old one immediately torn down? If not, then if there was a problem in the new building, the old one could have served as a fallback.

Quoting Indy (Reply 13):
The person that makes the drive to IND to save money doesn't care about the scenarios you mention. If frequencies and connections mattered the wouldn't drive 2 or 3 hours to catch a flight. They care about one thing and one thing only... price.

I know what you're saying, but the thought is strange to me. I used to live in northern NJ and used EWR exclusively even when there were better deals from either LGA or JFK. The time and cost spent in getting to and from either of those 2 airports just were not worth the $$ saved on an air ticket (or 3 if my family went with me). That's how I see the IND issue.


User currently offlinecleared2land From United States of America, joined May 2010, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 7 hours ago) and read 3337 times:

I want to make a correction to my post earlier; Most of SBN's leakage is to ORD, not MDW as I presumed. Based on the below percentages FWA is a "bigger" rival than IND.

SBN's Leakage:
23.9% is to ORD
6.5% to MDW
9.1% to Detroit
4.2% to FWA (American non-stop to Dallas)
4.1% to IND.

[Edited 2010-06-21 13:06:25]


"Build a mile of highway, go one mile. Build a mile of runway, go anywhere" -Bart Geisler, Director, Aviation Assoc. o
User currently offlineTan Flyr From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1920 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 6 hours ago) and read 3305 times:

Quoting cleared2land (Reply 15):
I want to make a correction to my post earlier; Most of SBN's leakage is to ORD, not MDW as I presumed.

Just a couple of other thoughts...
A. as far as SBN..there also might be leakage to GRR for some customers north of teh area where the drive is fairly equal.

B. Like it or not, there are some customers that do not like conncections or RJ's even if it even for a 20 min hop to ORD/ DTW or whatever. They may have had a traumatic experience (in their eyes) with missed connections (no one like them), they have some physical challenge that no matter what just makes it easier to drive 2-3 or whatever hours to get a non-stop to whereveer they are going.

C. I would think that 2-3 Eagle flights would be popular and profitable. Even better, some day (as we all wish) when AA/ AE has a 90-100 seater there are a number of these markets that would make for great use of such an aircraft.

D. a family that can save 400 or more will nearly always "leak" in markets like FWA/ SBN to IND or ORD-MDW.
But time and fuel are money...these sized airports can do much better in attracting pax by advertising better parking rates, time saved when you come home tired, etc. there are things marketing can do to keep the local awareness factor up!


User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3847 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 6 hours ago) and read 3288 times:

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 9):
Also if the Delta/USAIR slot swap eventually goes thru SBN will get it's first Non-stops to LGA replacing former mainline service of years ago.

Are you sure about that?


User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4714 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 6 hours ago) and read 3273 times:

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 14):
I think there is a difference between changing airports (Stapleton closed and replaced by DIA) and moving to a new terminal at an existing airport. I admit to not being familiar with IND (as it is I fly from MDW and ORD because of where I now live), but when IND was opening the new terminal, was the old one immediately torn down? If not, then if there was a problem in the new building, the old one could have served as a fallback.

Still not a scenario you would build a marketing campaign around.....



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3826 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 6 hours ago) and read 3263 times:

Quoting cleared2land (Reply 15):
SBN's Leakage:
23.9% is to ORD
6.5% to MDW
9.1% to Detroit
4.2% to FWA (American non-stop to Dallas)
4.1% to IND.

I'm surprised that IND has less leakage to SBN than I thought. I presumed that it would be at least three times as high as it is. Not too surprised about Eagle FWA-DFW getting a lot of traffic from SBN, though.

Quoting Indy (Reply 13):
The person that makes the drive to IND to save money doesn't care about the scenarios you mention. If frequencies and connections mattered the wouldn't drive 2 or 3 hours to catch a flight. They care about one thing and one thing only... price.

Spot on. Even an FWA exec told me this about area pax and leakage to IND: "The driving factor is fare, pure and simple."



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlinecleared2land From United States of America, joined May 2010, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 2 hours ago) and read 3211 times:

Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 16):
Just a couple of other thoughts...
A. as far as SBN..there also might be leakage to GRR for some customers north of teh area where the drive is fairly equal.

B. Like it or not, there are some customers that do not like conncections or RJ's even if it even for a 20 min hop to ORD/ DTW or whatever. They may have had a traumatic experience (in their eyes) with missed connections (no one like them), they have some physical challenge that no matter what just makes it easier to drive 2-3 or whatever hours to get a non-stop to whereveer they are going.

C. I would think that 2-3 Eagle flights would be popular and profitable. Even better, some day (as we all wish) when AA/ AE has a 90-100 seater there are a number of these markets that would make for great use of such an aircraft.

D. a family that can save 400 or more will nearly always "leak" in markets like FWA/ SBN to IND or ORD-MDW.
But time and fuel are money...these sized airports can do much better in attracting pax by advertising better parking rates, time saved when you come home tired, etc. there are things marketing can do to keep the local awareness factor up!

I totally agree with you in Point A. There is probably leakage to GRR, but the percentage is so small the St. Joseph County Airport Authority doesn't ever really mention it.

Your point in "B" is well noted, too. Some people just would rather not fly on an RJ. Nothing you can do about that!

In "C" do you mean 2-3 flights a day to ORD or to DFW? Either one would be profitable although competition with UA could prove tough for them. I remember some articles in the South Bend Tribune a while back and people really felt burned by AA in the greater South Bend area. I am not too sure how people will respond if they do return.I know their are always talks between SBN and AA but honestly, they have been gone for a long, long time. I don't think they will be back for a while. I put more money on another airline with an interline agreement with AA to hit DFW or another AA hub city.

In "D" I agree, too. Families will go where they can save the most money, usually. Throw in time, parking, etc, smaller airports can win over larger airports such as ORD. The current situation with Allegiant at SBN is really helping their numbers. With runs such as Phoenix/Mesa pushing 98% and 100% load factors and Las Vegas pushing over 94% there is sure to be further expansion with Allegiant in the near future. Families seem to be responding well to Allegiant's presence in South Bend.

Interesting thing to note: I was talking to the airport director at SBN today and he told me the majority of the DTW and ORD leakage is primarilly international travel where peope are not willing to risk missing a connection (your point in "B"). With that point noted, way less than half of SBN's leakage is actually domestic. Not too bad for good 'ol SBN. They manage to keep most of their domestic pax on their flights. As far as the leakage goes that is caused by international travel, well, you can't really do much about that.

In another conversation with SBN's director, Southwest doesn't really draw much from the South Bend area. The leakage to MDW is a combination of FL and WN.

[Edited 2010-06-21 17:37:57]


"Build a mile of highway, go one mile. Build a mile of runway, go anywhere" -Bart Geisler, Director, Aviation Assoc. o
User currently offlinecleared2land From United States of America, joined May 2010, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 2 hours ago) and read 3200 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 19):

Spot on. Even an FWA exec told me this about area pax and leakage to IND: "The driving factor is fare, pure and simple."

That is what really hurts FWA. People have an relatively easy 2-hour drive to IND via Interstate 69 to snatch up the low fares. People in the South Bend area don't! They have 3 hours or more on a traffic light infested "highway" to get to IND. But then again, people in the South Bend area have MDW and ORD via the South Shore Railroad or a 90-minute drive. FWA and SBN have their battles with leakage, but honestly, both have done very well managing their current service levels. I am really impressed with FWA on the DFW run. Good for them!

Does anybody know how the "new" manager is doing at FWA? I think he came from SDF, right?



"Build a mile of highway, go one mile. Build a mile of runway, go anywhere" -Bart Geisler, Director, Aviation Assoc. o
User currently offlinecleared2land From United States of America, joined May 2010, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 2 hours ago) and read 3184 times:

Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 17):
Quoting freakyrat (Reply 9):
Also if the Delta/USAIR slot swap eventually goes thru SBN will get it's first Non-stops to LGA replacing former mainline service of years ago.

Are you sure about that?

I know SBN has been very aggressive with a few airlines to get NYC service, specifically LGA. I haven't heard anything about LGA in a while. I personally don't see mainline if this route opens up, I would imagine 190s or similar aircraft.

On another note, DL is running 6x M-F, 3x on Saturdays and 5x on Sundays to CVG; 4x M-F, 2x Saturday and 2x on Sunday to ATL; 1x daily to MSP; 6x M-F, 5x Saturday and 6x Sundays to DTW. I could be wrong but I think the CVG frequency is greater than before.



"Build a mile of highway, go one mile. Build a mile of runway, go anywhere" -Bart Geisler, Director, Aviation Assoc. o
User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3847 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 1 hour ago) and read 3158 times:

Quoting cleared2land (Reply 22):
I personally don't see mainline if this route opens up, I would imagine 190s or similar aircraft.

I'm gonna toss you a "no way" on that. I'd be very surprised if FWA or SBN got one 50 seater out of the deal, if anything at all.


User currently offlinecleared2land From United States of America, joined May 2010, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 1 hour ago) and read 3148 times:

Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 23):
I'm gonna toss you a "no way" on that. I'd be very surprised if FWA or SBN got one 50 seater out of the deal, if anything at all.

I am inclined to agree with you, a bit. I should have written my response a little better. IF, and only IF, SBN were to get LGA, I definetley don't see it on mainline. I know that the market studies have shown that NYC service can be supported via SBN. I don't have any firm numbers to back this up but the reports showed that a lot of SBN pax final destination is NYC area. I guess we will have to wait and see.

What I really am anxious to see is the result of the UA/CO merger and what it will hopefully add to SBN.



"Build a mile of highway, go one mile. Build a mile of runway, go anywhere" -Bart Geisler, Director, Aviation Assoc. o
25 Post contains images FWAERJ : Based on the fact that people from SBN drive to FWA to catch Eagle service (more than total leakage to IND), I wouldn't doubt if AA/Eagle could devel
26 KcrwFlyer : I dont know about that either... I'm not holding my breath for CRW to get EWR. I know those EWR slots are precious to CO now, so I can only imagine h
27 cleared2land : I couldn't agree more, KcrwFlyer! It is all about profit more than anything else. Even a high-yield route doesn't mean it is safe from the axe as SBN
28 KcrwFlyer : Alright I suppose. Thrilled they're here, but I wish they'd get us tied into some connections one way or another. Only flying 3x to MCO might be hurt
29 bjorn14 : I think if IND doesn't get its cost structure down we might see some creative name marketing i.e. IND/BMG. There are 5 aiports within an hour's drive
30 cleared2land : I think G4 is what is going to make SBN and FWA stand out. Load factors are currently high, profits are there, and passengers are becoming pretty dar
31 flyinryan99 : I will bet a beer that while the volume is there for passengers to fly SBN-LGA, the revenue is not. The problem is fare pressure from MDW. While Delt
32 cleared2land : I guess time will tell. The pax are there, as we both have said. I don't think Midway plays as big of a role as you may think due to the low leakage
33 KcrwFlyer : G4 is great if that's the best an airport can do. Good " stat-building" airline. That dont really do much for the region/city/community they're in. T
34 cleared2land : When G4 offers daily service at higher daily frequency they will be in a totally new ball game. Right now the less-than-daily service does suffice, h
35 KcrwFlyer : Not really a new ballgame. Just more seats to some vacation city with no connections and no network to tie into. They have no intention of flying to
36 cleared2land : I talked to Dave Young over at FWA today and here is his short answer for us: "We lose somewhere between 50 and 65% of what should be FWA passengers t
37 FWAERJ : I've heard those exact same figures from Mr. Young. Prior to G4's arrival, he mentioned figures in the 55-70% range, so it's safe to say that FWA has
38 cleared2land : Hey, progress is progress. It is nice to see FWA reducing the leakage! But man, the leakage to IND is amazing. I wonder where those people are going
39 KcrwFlyer : Given how little of the market G4 was able to regain, I'd say its pretty spread out. They're probably going anywhere any LCC can get you from IND.
40 cleared2land : I was thinking that as well. Given those leakage stats I was able to get out of FWA G4 may have regained less for them than it appears. After reading
41 FWAERJ : It's not just LCCs, but legacies. US and CO, two legacies with large FF bases, serve IND but not FWA. Plus DL, the largest carrier at both IND and FW
42 KcrwFlyer : It's not the legacies making IND so much cheaper than FWA/SBN.
43 freakyrat : "Where did you hear about G4 possibly serving LGA?" From SBN Sun Country has inquired about serving SBN-LGA during Notre Dame Home Game weekends.
44 cleared2land : Are you talking about Elizabeth Cecconi? I went to Embry-Riddle with her a while back. I'll have to ask her more about this. She does an amazing job.
45 cleared2land : CO has been running EWR flights for ND home games for a while now. I am not sure what their intentions are for the 2010 season.
46 freakyrat : CO ran EWR flights for Notre Dame Home Games for 1 yr. but haven't resumed them. I know SBN have been in talks with CO about running permanent EWR and
47 cleared2land : I am very familiar with the new concourse. It is a much needed improvement for many reasons. I got to see the blueprints quite a while ago, even befo
48 freakyrat : Hey Cleared2land thanks for the information. The new gates should be able to fit any plane including the occasional 757 and A320 diversions SBN gets p
49 cleared2land : Full height would have looked funny at SBN to be honest, lol. A9 is the gate that will handle any larger aircraft such as the 757 or A320. I have see
50 cleared2land : I may be mistaken but I think that hangar is being used. Not to mention presidential speeches always take place there, lol. I would imagine that any
51 as777 : I think if there were an expessway opened from SBN-IND more people in the SBN market would be willing to travel to IND. Being from the SBN area, it is
52 cleared2land : How right you are! That drive South to Indy is murder as is the drive to ORD at times. With the proposed US30 upgrades and rerouting more people may
53 Post contains links Chase : US31 (not 30) upgrade is scheduled to be complete from... South Bend to Plymouth, IN in 2013: http://www.us31plysb.com/schedule.html I-465 to SR-38 in
54 rampguy : It's US 31 not 30.
55 cleared2land : I stand corrected. Thank you for pointing that out. So that will be what, 2-2.5 hours once the upgrade of US 31 is finished in 2015? It is around 3-3
56 Chase : I've only driven it a couple of times, and not in several years, but yeah, that sounds about right.
57 Indy : This isn't quite how it is going to go and nothing is final yet. Right now it looks as if the first focus is going to be on the Lafayette area. The t
58 WROORD : I live in Chicago (almost downtown) and you want me to drive 4 hrs to IND to be stuck on a RJ flight??? MKE is much closer and last time when the onl
59 FWAERJ : Are SDF and FWA also going to be targeted?
60 Indy : Sorry I didn't think to ask about that. Just asked about the NW Indiana area.
61 Chase : I'm surprised they need to focus on the LAF area at all. 1:00 drive to IND, 2:30 to MDW on a good day, a tad more to ORD, no service from LAF in year
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