planenutz From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1267 posts, RR: 12 Posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7787 times:
HY was made public on their website the names of all passengers "which behaviour have led to a threat of safety of flights on National Carrier "Azerbaijan Hava Yollari"
I have never heard of a carrier doing this. I suspect that this type of list is for those pax who have become belligerant while drunk, or otherwise may have picked a fight with crew or other pax. There's Azeri's, Russians, Ukrainians, an Indian, Isreali, and a UK citizen. I believe those are actual passport numbers listed next to thier names.
falstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 5671 posts, RR: 29 Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7621 times:
I don't see the problem. You are a deadbeat passenger and they don't want you. I have a friend who used to post bad checks that people had written his business on his wall. He stopped doing it after he stopped taking checks. I have seen several small businesses do that. I have also been in many bars that have the name of people who are not allowed in the place because of rowdy behavior posted on the wall. I tend to hang out in some rough bars.
The passport numbers are over the top, but I have no problem with listing the names of these problem passengers.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22037 posts, RR: 51 Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7535 times:
Good means to shame these people.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4248 posts, RR: 2 Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 7330 times:
I find this a good idea. These people are informed that they will not be flown, completely transparent. I wish the US no flight list and that of other countries would be published the same way. People on this list would have the right to protest against it and have the case checked.
tharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1778 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 7317 times:
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 5): I find this a good idea. These people are informed that they will not be flown, completely transparent. I wish the US no flight list and that of other countries would be published the same way. People on this list would have the right to protest against it and have the case checked.
If this list is what it's being described as, there's probably some difference here though: one is a list of misbehaving passengers, and the other is a list of possibly dangerous passengers. The two types of information would not necessarily be handled the same way.
Quoting falstaff (Reply 2): but I have no problem with listing the names of these problem passengers.
this violates data protection, would you like to be named openly on such a list? Would you like that, if someone googles your name and the black listing on an airlines website pops up on the first page? Thank god we live in a democratic country where people have rights and sue not only companies and individuals but the government as well.
airbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 52 Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7070 times:
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7): this violates data protection, would you like to be named openly on such a list? Would you like that, if someone googles your name and the black listing on an airlines website pops up on the first page? Thank god we live in a democratic country where people have rights and sue not only companies and individuals but the government as well.
Fully correct.
Unbelievable when airlines start doing something like this. This says something about AZAL. I'm not going to fly an airline who does these kind of activities.
If people say such idea is great, why don't other 'Western' airlines not implement such lists online? Because we all know that airlines have long lists of 'no-fly' passengers in their internal databases.
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
JohnKrist From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1340 posts, RR: 5 Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6890 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD SUPPORT
They have been doing it for years, and there are other threads about it here on Anet. And I think it's a great idea!
And I also think other airlines do it and that there will be a flag in the system when there is a suspected match. Don't know if anyone else put them out to hang in public though.
7D, 17-40 F4 L, 70-200 F2.8 L IS, EF 1.4x II, EF 2x III, Metz 58-AF1
gabrielchew From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 2512 posts, RR: 13 Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6484 times:
There used to be a poster up in the ticket desk area in Sheffield Station (UK) with all the names and partial address of people found fare-evading (last time I was there was 2007). I think it's a great idea - if you're breaking the law and being a generally 'bad' passenger, why don't the companies have the right to do this? People are only named and shamed if they do something wrong.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 7771 posts, RR: 26 Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6116 times:
Quoting gabrielchew (Reply 10): think it's a great idea - if you're breaking the law and being a generally 'bad' passenger, why don't the companies have the right to do this? People are only named and shamed if
sure, why not put them into the stocks with a fresh supply of rotten eggs and tomatoes so everyone can throw that at them. Making the names public on the net or otherwise is humiliating and a medieval punishment. An airline can have thrse names in an internal data bank where high ranking only managers have access to details, but certainly not for everyone to look at.
Likely these passengers have had a couple of drinks too much and showed it. That's not really "breaking the law". Others turn quiet with the same booze level and fly. Breaking data protection laws is a crime and punishable in most civilized countries. I would not fly with an airline that breaks the laws, the assumption that they don't take other matters too seriously is logic.
EXCOASA1982 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 161 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5514 times:
I knew this sounded familiar...
No Seat For You! (by Eta unknown Apr 7 2009 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=4376282&searchid=4377334&s=azerbaijan+airlines#ID4377334
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11125 posts, RR: 63 Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5287 times:
Quoting EXCOASA1982 (Reply 12): No Seat For You! (by Eta unknown Apr 7 2009 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=4376282&searchid=4377334&s=azerbaijan+airlines#ID4377334
The title of that thread is especially ironic as, when I flew them in 2008, they were perfectly happy to load more passengers than seats.
Back in 2006/7 they had that list too, seems a bit longer now.
airbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 52 Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5049 times:
Quoting JohnKrist (Reply 9): And I also think other airlines do it and that there will be a flag in the system when there is a suspected match. Don't know if anyone else put them out to hang in public though.
Yes, other airline do it. It's quite common. But other airlines to not make such lists public. And that's how it should be.
Quoting gabrielchew (Reply 10): I think it's a great idea - if you're breaking the law and being a generally 'bad' passenger, why don't the companies have the right to do this?
Who said they break the law. The airline did decide? Are they entitled to decide? So airlines are the making the law nowadays and decide who will be on the list or not? And then, are you interested in these names? Or your neighbour? Or me?
No I'm not interested in it. These names don't say anything to me. It's just names. Without words what happened and why they are on that list. It's totally unacceptable to have such lists in public.
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 13): The title of that thread is especially ironic as, when I flew them in 2008, they were perfectly happy to load more passengers than seats.
Another reason not to fly this bullshit airline from Azerbaijan... They are totally not professional, break safety regulations apparently also. This airline should not be flying at all and be banned from the skies.
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
Severnaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1390 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4283 times:
I think it's fair that such list is published as long as that is stated in the general terms of carrying the passengers. There are also "most wanted lists" around and other type of lists, so what's exactly the difference?
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7): this violates data protection,
I think you don't know much about the Azeri law system, or you're sure it violates Azerbaijani law?
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11): Likely these passengers have had a couple of drinks too much and showed it. That's not really "breaking the law".
If they were drunk, then it's breaking the law.
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11): Breaking data protection laws is a crime and punishable in most civilized countries.
Hmm, the famous European double standards. (i think this is in german: mit zweierlei Maß messen).
To be drunk and insult people is okay, but public naming & shaming is 'not-done'.
tharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1778 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4170 times:
Quoting Severnaya (Reply 15): There are also "most wanted lists" around and other type of lists, so what's exactly the difference?
Huge difference.
The purpose of a most wanted list is to alert civilians to people who need to be caught, and also to help awareness among law enforcement.
Nobody needs to be caught and arrested here; it's just a private business maintaining a list of people that it will not serve as customers. So what exactly is the purpose of it being published? I can't tell what the purpose might be, but it certainly isn't to help get a fugitive arrested.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 7771 posts, RR: 26 Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3665 times:
Quoting Severnaya (Reply 15): I think you don't know much about the Azeri law system, or you're sure it violates Azerbaijani law?
I could imagine that human rights are not necessarily the base of Azeri law, however human rights are regarded higher than laws of countries which are not up to the standards of states rulerd by the law.
Quoting Severnaya (Reply 15): If they were drunk, then it's breaking the law.
if you read my text, I said that some people show when they are drunk and some not. BTW, getting drunk is not against the law, there is no reeason to offload passengers who behave calmly. I am fully with those who say that people who behave dangerously are offloaded. Last time I saw that was at ZRH where 2 guys were offloaded by Swiss Police from an LX flight to WAW. They are sobered up and get out on the next flight. That's all and that's all there should be.
Quoting Severnaya (Reply 15): To be drunk and insult people is okay, but public naming & shaming is 'not-done'.
No, it's not OK and I never said that. Again, getting drunk is not a crime. Insulting, hitting out at people, abusing other passengers or simply driving while intoxicated are crimes.
Violating data protection laws is a crime as well. You may think about it differently, however I live in a state ruled by the law, which is may be different from what you experience. There are no double standards in Germany either. The laws apply for all people alike, no one has a dedicated spur on the roads here.
Quoting tharanga (Reply 16): Nobody needs to be caught and arrested here; it's just a private business maintaining a list of people that it will not serve as customers.
Exactly. Some companies have such lists for whatever purpose, clients who don't pay their bills or in the case of airlines people who mis-behave. These lists however are not for the public eye and not even for the handling agents at the check-in counter. All it needs is that the reservation system recognizes such passengers when bookings are made.
474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 10 Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3620 times:
Can you believe it they have put "God" on the no-fly list. See No. 5 on the list.
airbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 52 Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3455 times:
Quoting 413X3 (Reply 19): Quoting SHAQ (Reply 1):
Is Azeribaijan a democratic country?
even if it was, what difference does that make? In America you as a company have the right to refuse service to anyone
That's not the issue here. This is about putting names in public on a list.
Denied boarding for such people, that is common practice in aviation, also with e.g. European or US airlines.
It's about that list. It doesn't say anything to me. So what is the purpose of it? It only offends with the privacy of the mentioned people on there.
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
SolarFlyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 395 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3179 times:
This is great, I love it!. They should call out why they are blacklisted and remove the passport #'s though. Most are from AZE interestingly enough.
I really don't see the problem with a public list. This is why Wikileaks cropped up. Secrets are inherently bad when it comes from the Government or major Corporations. The only time you need secrecy is for security reasons or for trade secrets (the recipe for Coca-Cola for example).
So long as they don't slander or libel the passengers its fine imho. Part of being Democratic is also being open and public with minimal secrecy. My only issue is the Passport #.
tharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1778 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2735 times:
Quoting SolarFlyer22 (Reply 22): The only time you need secrecy is for security reasons or for trade secrets (the recipe for Coca-Cola for example).
That's quite an extreme place to draw the line.
So you're OK with your doctor posting publicly information about your health? You're OK with your bank posting publicly information about your bank accounts?
The airline can deny boarding to those who have misbehaved in the past, but why should that be public information?
EnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 820 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2622 times:
I don't see how this is any different from the credit score companies or information found via background checks. At least people can see this information is out there and if they believe it to be incorrect and slanderous they know to do something about it. When a big company decides you owe them something, regardless of whether it is true or not, your non-payment affects your credit score. When someone accuses you of a crime, regardless of whether it is true or not, your ability to work in certain positions will be restricted. Innocent until proven guilty is how things probably should be but the fact is that the media, government, and companies often release information on individuals before anything has passed through the court system. Every week there is someone in the news "charged" of something... this is similar to public shaming and the person hasn't been able to give a rebuttal yet. Once in a while you find out those charged were incorrectly accused but at that point their life has been turned upside down. I doubt someone accused of being a drunk on an aircraft finds themselves in as bad a predicament.
25 tharanga: You need my permission to see my credit score. That's plenty different, from a privacy point of view.
26 EnviroTO: But you can't get anything without giving that approval. The big companies you do business with on a regular basis can see your credit score so the p
27 PanHAM: not only in America. No Government (at least in democratic countries) can force companies to enter into contract obligations with third parties. The
28 PlymSpotter: Im guessing that on domestic routes it's largely up to them. The airbridge flights they operate are nothing but people and freight movers, different
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