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A380 Delays-MAS Unhappy, Threatens To Cancel Order  
User currently offlineaviationbuff From India, joined Mar 2008, 1425 posts, RR: 3
Posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 21347 times:

A380 delays - MAS not happy, threatens to cancel order

http://atwonline.com/airline-finance...delays-threatens-cancel-order-0621

Quote:
Malaysia Airlines said yesterday that it has made clear to Airbus its disappointment in the delayed delivery of its A380s and is seriously considering canceling its order.

MAS has six A380s on order and originally was supposed to receive its first in May 2008. CEO Azmil Zahruddin told reporters yesterday following the carrier's AGM that the first A380 now is scheduled to be delivered in the 2012 second quarter, its fourth delivery date. "MAS hopes to make a decision this year on whether we'll cancel the A380 orders," he said. "We are not happy."

While cancellations based on the current, revised delivery schedule are possible,Zahruddin indicated that any additional delay would lead MAS to pull the plug. He said the carrier "cannot tolerate" further delays. He explained that the four-year postponement of its first A380 delivery has made it "very difficult to plan to make sure that our network is in the right place."

Chairman Munir Abdul Majid also weighed in, telling reporters that MAS has been "pretty firm" with Airbus in recent talks, according to media reports.

The speculation of MAS cancellation of A380 order resurfaces with this report ...................

75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 21257 times:

I suspect they just want to cancel it. Doesn't really make the world of sense that if you can't have it now, you don't want it at all.

User currently onlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3374 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 21163 times:

I has been a.net accepted wisdom that MAS didn't want these birds anymore so this may be their way of picking a fight allowing them to cancel.

The likelehood of further delays may be receding though as Airbus seem to have the line movng well now and a couple of birds are likely to be earlier than their expected, current delivery dates this year.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24997 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 21111 times:
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Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 2):
I has been a.net accepted wisdom that MAS didn't want these birds anymore so this may be their way of picking a fight allowing them to cancel.

Not accepted by me. They're had opportunity to cancel and have not done so. They've made some money on it:

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-...der-over-delays-20100622-yvaw.html

SMH: "The carrier recorded a net profit at 310 million ringgit ($A110.3 million) in the three months to the end of March due to the compensation from Airbus and an increase in traffic."

I think they are very pissed and they may cancel. I suspect they'd rather have the aircraft.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineivo From Belgium, joined Sep 2000, 470 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 21010 times:

There first is scheduled for delivery 2012 2Q.

c/n 78,81,84 and 88 are all to be del in 2012.


Ivo


User currently offlineRobffm2 From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 1114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 21009 times:

But why is there so much noise coming from MAS?
I don't hear that kind of complaints from other carriers. Is there something specific about the MAS birds?


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24997 posts, RR: 85
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 20924 times:
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Quoting Robffm2 (Reply 5):
But why is there so much noise coming from MAS?
I don't hear that kind of complaints from other carriers. Is there something specific about the MAS birds?

They don't have as big a wide body fleet as some other carriers and they don't like the delays. Their very close neighbor, Singapore has 'em, and they don't.

If I were running the airline, I'd be making a lot of noise too.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineflyTUITravel From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 723 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 20905 times:

Quoting Robffm2 (Reply 5):
But why is there so much noise coming from MAS?
I don't hear that kind of complaints from other carriers. Is there something specific about the MAS birds?

Perhaps MH is more keen to get them in service than others? Maybe other 380 customers have plenty of other new aircraft deliveries to be dealing with.

[Edited 2010-06-22 03:45:50]

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30537 posts, RR: 84
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 20888 times:
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What interests me is that they're not talking to Boeing about the 747-8, but instead the 777-300ER.

If they're just angling for more compensation, one would think they'd be playing up the 747-8, which they arguably might be able to get prior to their 2012 A380 deliveries and they are a current 747-400 / 747-400F operator. But the 777-300ER would be some 200 seats lower in capacity than the A380-800.

TG is on record as saying they don't think they can make money with a 500+ seat A380-800 and they've just placed a not-insiginificant lease order for 777-300ERs, so perhaps MH has come to a similar conclusion and now feel it might be better to not take delivery?

If so, and with EK now wanting 90 frames by 2017, MH might feel that Airbus is now in a position to easily swap their slots to EK.


User currently onlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2010 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 20710 times:

The last MAS 744 I flew in looked fairly tired, it must be frustrating not having aircraft when you want them, and having to keep other aircraft longer than expected.

Having said that, I imagine that LHR was one the routes planned for the A380, and Air Asia International's route to STN must be having a serious affect on loadings, especially in Y, so a smaller plane would be more useful now...



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3381 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20521 times:

If I read the article correctly they will have waited an extra 4 years when they finally get delivered in 2012. I would not be a happy camper either. Again who knows the real reason why...it's valid to assume they maybe experiencing bleed to SIN because they have them. They could be feeling like the bride left at the altar and their other girlfriends are already married.


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2686 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20507 times:

What I don’t understand is that Airbus is officially claiming that they have successfully achieved to ramp-up the production – and the numbers of deliveries but also the numbers of convoys and first flights support this statement – and yet we hear from MH that the delivery of their A 380s has been postponed again.

Could it be that Airbus has achieved the latest production improvements by concentrating on the current A 380-customers and by postponing new A 380-versions for new operators e.g. due to the required engineering work?


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20382 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 11):
If I read the article correctly they will have waited an extra 4 years when they finally get delivered in 2012.

Yes, total delay of 4 years. That is a VERY long time. The oldest 744 is 17 years old, so can hold on for a short while. But still, a four year delay is good reason to be very upset. Especially since competitors (especially SQ, but also EK and QF) have gathered a small fleet of a380's already. They may be government owned, but want to be competitive.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12375 posts, RR: 47
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20307 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 3):
They're had opportunity to cancel and have not done so.

Sadly, Airbus has given all its A380 customers plenty of opportunity to cancel. None have (accepting freighters).   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently onlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20241 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 3):
Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 2):
I has been a.net accepted wisdom that MAS didn't want these birds anymore so this may be their way of picking a fight allowing them to cancel.

Not accepted by me. They're had opportunity to cancel and have not done so. They've made some money on it:

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-...der-over-delays-20100622-yvaw.html

SMH: "The carrier recorded a net profit at 310 million ringgit ($A110.3 million) in the three months to the end of March due to the compensation from Airbus and an increase in traffic."

I think they are very pissed and they may cancel. I suspect they'd rather have the aircraft.

mariner

Agreed. I think they do need their A380's and can't afford to keep some of their oldest 744's that much longer. They'll feel the competition of SQ with their shiny new A380's and 77W's, and EK is around the corner as well.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):

What interests me is that they're not talking to Boeing about the 747-8, but instead the 777-300ER.

Too bad. But that may change if MH does indeed cancel, Boeing could offer the 748i for a lower price than the 77W just for the prestige of having an airline dump the A380 for the 747-8.

But that's also why Airbus won't let this happen. Even if it would mean offering so much compensation that they won't make a dime on any of the MH birds...   



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10631 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20157 times:

This is just noise. So what do they want to do then? Order 748Is? Maybe the 748I size is better suited for them, I dont know. 77Ws? That aircraft is not competitive to the A380, not in comfort, not in in seat-mile-cost, not in future perspective. There is no other alternative.

User currently offlinecol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2093 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20053 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
They don't have as big a wide body fleet as some other carriers and they don't like the delays. Their very close neighbor, Singapore has 'em, and they don't.

If I were running the airline, I'd be making a lot of noise too.

Absolutely. They need the 380 now, not in two years. 25 minute connection gives you access to those SQ birds, not good for your premium pax flying older noisier 744's. I cannot see them cancelling, but compensation maybe coming.... again!!


User currently offlinecerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 726 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 19906 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
They don't have as big a wide body fleet as some other carriers and they don't like the delays. Their very close neighbor, Singapore has 'em, and they don't.

But why now? MH has been compensated by Airbus over the delay of delivery and has entered into an agreement with Airbus about a revised delivery schedule. With seemingly no signs of further significant slippage of A380 delivery, where is this renewed complaint about delay coming from?


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8273 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 19880 times:
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Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 10):
Having said that, I imagine that LHR was one the routes planned for the A380, and Air Asia International's route to STN must be having a serious affect on loadings, especially in Y, so a smaller plane would be more useful now...

ITa a Kangaroo Route plane for Malaysia Air, LHR, Sydney and Melbourne. ITs Very doubtful the plane wil be flown to LAX by MAS. MAS has double daily to LHR, the only way for them to increase their seating is to go for teh A380.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30537 posts, RR: 84
Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 19858 times:
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Quoting cerecl (Reply 18):
With seemingly no signs of further significant slippage of A380 delivery, where is this renewed complaint about delay coming from?

I believe that the issue MH has is that they continue to experience significant slippage of their A380 deliveries.

It was 2H 2011, but now Airbus has told them it's slipped (again) to 1H 2012. They may be afraid that being a "new" (in terms of first delivery) customer, they are most at risk for being delayed yet again as push-comes-to-shove, Airbus might (continue to?) dedicate resources to delivering existing customer frames because they are "up to speed" on their configurations.

[Edited 2010-06-22 05:44:46]

User currently offlineCFBFrame From United States of America, joined May 2009, 531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 19384 times:

Quoting na (Reply 16):
This is just noise. So what do they want to do then? Order 748Is? Maybe the 748I size is better suited for them, I dont know. 77Ws? That aircraft is not competitive to the A380, not in comfort, not in in seat-mile-cost, not in future perspective. There is no other alternative.

What's your proof? Here we have a customer that has a/c in their fleet needing updating, a supplier who has pushed their delivery dates 4 years, and you say it's just noise?



Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
What interests me is that they're not talking to Boeing about the 747-8, but instead the 777-300ER.

Maybe the A380 expereince has them rather gunshy?

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 12):
Could it be that Airbus has achieved the latest production improvements by concentrating on the current A 380-customers and by postponing new A 380-versions for new operators e.g. due to the required engineering work?

If this is true, there will be few leases for ILFC. Might explain why LH went with the limited first class arrangement they got?

[Edited 2010-06-22 12:25:48 by srbmod]

User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10631 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 19259 times:

Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 21):
What's your proof? Here we have a customer that has a/c in their fleet needing updating, a supplier who has pushed their delivery dates 4 years, and you say it's just noise?

Just ask yourself what alternatives they have. The 748I ok. As much as I would like to see them ordering some, would they get one before late 2011?


User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 18969 times:

Quoting na (Reply 22):
Just ask yourself what alternatives they have. The 748I ok. As much as I would like to see them ordering some, would they get one before late 2011?

Maybe they are seeing alot of additional capacity from other carriers on the routes they were hoping to utilize the A380 (Kangaroo by EK, QF, SQ..) which is making them question their ability to fill the plane profitably.

If so, then 777s would be a less risky option for them.

The best competitive response to a competitor using A380s is not necessarily your own A380s.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10631 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 18715 times:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 23):
The best competitive response to a competitor using A380s is not necessarily your own A380s.

True. But a 777 would be the choice of a looser with no hope for the better here.


25 DLPMMM : That does not make any logical sense. In fact, the 777 is a much more obvious choice than a 748i for MH. There is no reason to carry around extra emp
26 CFBFrame : Maybe then they should just pack it in and call it a day? Here's what I'd do; tell Airbus that the delay has cost MH far more than a ~$104 mil penalt
27 na : Why is it a more obvious choice? The 748I is at least for some part more advanced than the 77W and much more a tool to make a point with against the
28 eraugrad02 : This is exactly the opening for the 747-8i that was mentioned in the other thread. The length of time to get A380 plus delays could mean more 747 orde
29 Post contains images aviationbuff : They should give 8-9 based on the list price + dont forget the throw away price factor. Jokes apart, if this becomes a reality then what will happen
30 DLPMMM : The 777 would be the obvious choice because of the lower seat count, good CASM, lower maintainence due to only 2 engines, and range (notice I said 77
31 Stitch : I suppose eventually MH risks moving into the same situation TG is in - having waited so long / accepted sufficient compensation that customer cancell
32 Robffm2 : What kind of limited first class arrangement? Please explain.
33 CFBFrame : You already killed them in a prior post, now you feel like adding more dirt? You seem to think the fault is all MH's for considering an alternative a
34 ChrisCruise : I hear and read a lot about complaints of passengers about the MH 744s. They start to show their age and seem to get very uncomfortable. Another two
35 Post contains links mariner : Air Canada lays out the business problem with delays, in their own case with the 787: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bus...ada-blames-787-delay-966
36 9MMAR : This news came out during MH's 39th Annual General Meeting held yesterday. The general consensus that the local enthusiasts are having is that this i
37 CFBFrame : I mean with less of the bells and whistles than say a EK? Thought that might have enabled them to have gotten their a/c w/o the types of delays a mor
38 VC10DC10 : 9MMAR, thanks so much for the info and especially the load information to/from LON. Very interesting stuff. Doesn't MH already codeshare with WY? And
39 CFBFrame : Stitch- you are so right about accepting money initially, and assuming a short delay, puts the airline in a tough spot when the airframer pulls a 4 y
40 9MMAR : WY launched KUL only recently, on 1 May 2010. Therefore I am pretty sure MH has yet to code share with them. MH announced previously that they are go
41 justloveplanes : Now things are making some sense. Perhaps this is about more compensation today to refresh the 744's while the A380's arrive.
42 MAS777 : Think MAS on this occasion is quite correct to make as noise as possible. As one of the launch carriers - the delay really has got beyond the joke. Tr
43 francoflier : I would think the same, since no news delays have been announced to MH recently AFAIK. They have known for a while that they would be getting them in
44 777law : That's exactly what this is. Not only does MH not want them - they are about the last carrier that needs them. MH's 380 order has always been bizzare
45 avek00 : This is no surprise, I never expected MH to actually operate the A380 (or at least not for any length of time). For MH, the A380 would be an act of va
46 mariner : Why do they need to "squawk"? They can walk away whenever they want. mariner
47 Post contains links and images MarcoPoloWorld : The squawking is all yours, apparently. Yes, I also think that is what might be going on here. Still, the mulitiple pushbacks of MH in particular by
48 777law : And it's pretty uncertain that is in fact the future of MH. Look, MH is under attack from all sides right now. It's former strategy of going head-to-
49 mariner : They don't have to try. They can do it now. mariner
50 N14AZ : Difficult to say as I don't know how long the engineering takes before the fuselage sections are produced. I heard that the production of the fuselag
51 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : Something of interest: "KUALA LUMPUR, June 24 (Bernama) -- The Malaysian Airlines System Employees Union (MASEU) has called on Malaysia Airlines (MAS)
52 Post contains images EPA001 : Strange that the employee union now knows when a plane is outdated and not the standard in the industry. They must know something which EK is unaware
53 Post contains images Jacobin777 : No wonder I'm not so fond of most unions...
54 Post contains images PlaneHunter : Reality speaks another language. The 77Ws are cash cows for many airlines, sales figures don't lie. Much has been said about ecomomics here, no need
55 changyou : I guess they're referring to the inflight products MH had install for the A380s?
56 delimit : What products would those be?
57 brilondon : Or would they not need them anymore and using the delay as an excuse to cancel them. The 777-300ER might be more of what they need even if it is smal
58 MarcoPoloWorld : Thanks for the update, n14az.
59 zeke : Sections that I understand that are in production now are Emirates 17th and 18th (MSN077, MSN080) Korean 4th and 5th (MSN068, MSN075) Lufthansa 9th,
60 Post contains links speedygonzales : The list on a380production has been confirmed as bullshit by an Airbus employee. See post by JollieJoker: http://www.aviation-community.de/for...d/vi
61 zeke : No one is suggesting that the MH aircraft are in the FAL in TLS or being outfitted in XFW, sections of MSN078 are in production now. When the section
62 behramjee : Realistically speaking, MH does not need the A 380 for any of its routes and nor does it require any of its aircraft to have a 3 class configuration.
63 Post contains links keesje : . Malaysia Airlines keeps A380 order despite delays http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...ALeqM5iOnj3iX0HQKYBlHc6SyemUiMATEw Maybe next year..
64 ikramerica : I think this was a given. They've waited this long, if they wanted out and could get out, they would have done so.
65 9MMAR : Which proves this huhahuha is just... ...as mentioned previously. MH is expected to receive a further MYR 329 million in compensation from Airbus wit
66 Asiaflyer : Isn't this the "old" compensation that they repeat again? MYR 329 Mio equals to about 101 MUSD at todays exchange rate.
67 328JET : I never understood why MAS ordered the A388, but ok, they did. Most likely the delay helps them a lot to negotiate nice deals with airbus for other ai
68 airpearl : This compensation of MYR329 million was recognized in the airline's first quarter 2010 results - MH would have shown a loss in the quarter had it not
69 keesje : Whichis not a lot. Other airlines were handed out free A330 according to unidentified sources.
70 Stitch : USD 101 million will more than cover the cost of an A330, so if MH used that compensation to purchase one, it would in a way be "free".
71 Post contains links keesje : Yes, despite its popularity, backlog and wide customer base Airbus no doubt gives huge A330 discounts, unlike other OEMS. http://www.airbus.com/store
72 Asiaflyer : I find that quite generous, considering that MH only has six A380's on order. IIRC QF didn't get much more considering they bought 20 superjumbos. Ne
73 Stitch : As I have noted, the "standard" discount rate now on an order is 50% and for larger orders, the discount rate will no doubt be higher. CX has been ni
74 LAXDESI : Thanks for sharing. Going by these numbers, B772ER would be about $20 million more than A333.
75 Stitch : Realistically, an OEM is going to be hard pressed to charge more for a new delivery than it's "apparent value" on the open market. In other words, if
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