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Warsaw - Hanoi By LOT Polish Starts 19Oct2010  
User currently offlineLOT767SP-LPA From Poland, joined May 2002, 156 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 8954 times:

Lot Polish Airlines will start direct flight to Vietnam 19 October 2010, three times a week as schedule:

WAW-HAN 1-3--6- 22.40-14.25+ LO 085
HAN-WAW - 2-4--7 23.25 - 06.05 LO 086

Lowest price starts from Ł489 (Amadeus)

Hope it won't be "Beijing Bis"

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinekonrad From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 524 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 8803 times:

Good move and nice timing for onward connections from/to western Europe.
Morning bank of departures from WAW is between 7 and 8:00, arrivals to WAW from 20 till 21:30.

Hopefully this time LOT did a better job securing Russia overflight rules. Last time they tried opening WAW PEK *without* having overflight rules and ended up flying +2h longer routings around Russia. Or is WAW HAN so far south they don't need to enter Russia's airspace?

[Edited 2010-06-24 02:26:34]

User currently offlineVN777 From Vietnam, joined Nov 2007, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 8750 times:

Good to see that after AF leaving HAN in October we get some new options with QR and now LO.

Quoting konrad (Reply 1):
Good move and nice timing for onward connections from/to western Europe.
Morning bank of departures from WAW is between 7 and 8:00, arrivals to WAW from 20 till 21:30.

Thanks for the info. With the right connections in WAW and the low yielding configuration of LO's 763, 18C and 227Y they might could make it work to take some traffic from VN, SU, TG and CX.

Anybody knows how the O&D traffic is between Poland and Vietnam? big Vietnamese community in Poland?

VN777


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1875 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 8722 times:

Quoting LOT767SP-LPA (Thread starter):
Hope it won't be "Beijing Bis"

Oh yes. It will be.

Quoting VN777 (Reply 2):
Anybody knows how the O&D traffic is between Poland and Vietnam? big Vietnamese community in Poland?

Yes, there is significant Vietnamese population in Warsaw area, as well as there are a number of Vietnamese studends nationwide. That, with the proper marketing of the connecting flights onward to Europe, should secure success of this route.

It's good for start, however, LO should actually schedule the flight to arrive mid-day to allow connections to be made from Europe as well as United States.



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlinevietsky From Vietnam, joined Nov 2008, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 8634 times:

Hi all,

Will VNA plan to start its service to WAW as well?


User currently offlineMilka From Monaco, joined Mar 2010, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 8563 times:

I think that 2011 will be a very exciting year for LOT, with the EuroLot fleet being replaced with brand new shiny A/C and the first 3 B787 arriving that will bring a whole new standard to LOT's long-haul service and of course new regional routes coming online  

User currently offlineFlylot From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 8411 times:

Quoting konrad (Reply 1):
Hopefully this time LOT did a better job securing Russia overflight rules. Last time they tried opening WAW PEK *without* having overflight rules and ended up flying +2h longer routings around Russia. Or is WAW HAN so far south they don't need to enter Russia's airspace?

It does overfly RUS. http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=waw-han.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 3):
It's good for start, however, LO should actually schedule the flight to arrive mid-day to allow connections to be made from Europe as well as United States.

I don't imagine reasonable slots are difficult to come by in WAW or HAN.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 3):
Quoting LOT767SP-LPA (Thread starter):
Hope it won't be "Beijing Bis"

Oh yes. It will be.

+2

But they'll never make (or lose) any money if they don't tap new markets.

[Edited 2010-06-24 05:49:02]


"In Soviet Russia, airplane flies on you"
User currently onlinemdavies06 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2009, 382 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 8230 times:

What is the reason for WAW-HAN, why not SIN, BKK, KUL etc. HAN is of course not big in terms of connection with Europe (is it just VN and AF that flies to HAN?), but isnt it safer to start with a bigger station first?

User currently offlineFilipair From United States of America, joined May 2010, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 8188 times:

Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 7):
What is the reason for WAW-HAN, why not SIN, BKK, KUL etc. HAN is of course not big in terms of connection with Europe (is it just VN and AF that flies to HAN?), but isnt it safer to start with a bigger station first?

HAN was chosen for two reasons. First of all, there is a growing Vietnamese community in Poland, the third largest in Europe, with estimates varying widely between 20 and 60 thousand people. This flight would cater to the local market. Second of all, every single European long-haul airline flies to SIN, BKK, KUL, and company. Since WAW is well positioned to capture Western Europe-Vietnam traffic, LOT is trying to differentiate itself from the rest and offer something only a couple other airlines can offer.

I am optimistic about the potential this route has locally and with connections from other countries but I fear that, without critical mass, this route may just not work out for LO.


User currently offlinevin2basketball From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 8121 times:

Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 7):
What is the reason for WAW-HAN, why not SIN, BKK, KUL etc. HAN is of course not big in terms of connection with Europe (is it just VN and AF that flies to HAN?), but isnt it safer to start with a bigger station first?

Why not SGN?


User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7122 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 8079 times:

Arent AF re-instating Vietnam shortly?


The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinevin2basketball From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 8043 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 10):
Arent AF re-instating Vietnam shortly?

They are


User currently offlineDelta777Jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1259 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7972 times:

Whilest HAN may be a good choice, I think the frequency of 3 weekly flights is too high. Should be max 2 per week for the start, but we will see. If LOT manage to sell also to Tour Operators in Poland for Vietnam package holidays it might work. When LOT last served BKK the flights were fully packed but still generating a loss due to low income generated on these flights. The new government should be more pro Russian therefore I think no problems this time with overflight permits for Russia.


Fly easyJet
User currently offlineborism From Estonia, joined Oct 2006, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 7324 times:

Quoting Flylot (Reply 6):
Quoting konrad (Reply 1):
Hopefully this time LOT did a better job securing Russia overflight rules. Last time they tried opening WAW PEK *without* having overflight rules and ended up flying +2h longer routings around Russia. Or is WAW HAN so far south they don't need to enter Russia's airspace?

It does overfly RUS. http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=waw-han

Not necessarily. They might do it via Ukraine, Turkey, Iran etc. Probably easier than getting Russia and Tibet plateau overflight rights.


User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7122 posts, RR: 57
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 7155 times:

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 12):
The new government should be more pro Russian therefore I think no problems this time with overflight permits for Russia.

Overflights wont solve the yield issue though. This route connects two very eurasian european 'hubs', and LO wont benefit from any star feed in asia either. At a time when the remaining EU Eastern European airlines are abandoning long haul I find it strange that LO thinks they can do otherwise, especially with this most strange of route launches.

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 12):
Tour Operators in Poland for Vietnam package

= very low yield



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2591 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 6696 times:
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How long is this flight?

Maybe if the code-shared with Vietnam on some Asian routes popular in Poland they could increase yields?
What sort of Asian routes (if any) are popular from Poland?


User currently offlineWROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 952 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 6613 times:

I don't think LO or any other airline for that matter would use darts to decide where they will fly next??? I am sure they did some due diligence and decided that it makes sense for them. Vietnam With transatlantic routes dominated by LH Group within *A, both LO and WAW are well positioned to be the gateway between Europe and Asia, especially that LH said their next focus for long haul routes is going to be Africa.

User currently offlineVN777 From Vietnam, joined Nov 2007, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week ago) and read 6499 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 10):
Arent AF re-instating Vietnam shortly?


AF current schedule
3w CDG-BKK-HAN
4w CDG-BKK-SGN

AF schedule starting October.
7w CDG-BKK
3w CDG-SGN

VN will increase their HAN-CDG service from 4 weekly to 5 or 6 weekly with an AF code on it.

Quoting borism (Reply 13):
Not necessarily. They might do it via Ukraine, Turkey, Iran etc. Probably easier than getting Russia and Tibet plateau overflight rights.


VN's HAN-CDG-HAN, HAN-FRA-HAN always go south of the Himalaya and don't enter Chinese or Russian airspace. According to circle mapper this adds 500mi to a HAN-WAW flight. Although I wonder if China offers a good air route for a flight to HAN.

VN777


User currently offlineFilipair From United States of America, joined May 2010, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week ago) and read 6484 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 14):
At a time when the remaining EU Eastern European airlines are abandoning long haul I find it strange that LO thinks they can do otherwise, especially with this most strange of route launches.

The population of Poland is at least twice as large as that of any other Eastern European EU country. LOT already has a widebody fleet with a clear purpose (serving the transatlantic expat community) and they are simply branching out. Furthermore, WAW is a very well-positioned transit point for Europe to Southeast Asia traffic and Poland has a growing Vietnamese community of its own. The route only seems "strange" because few European airlines fly to HAN. However, I agree, it is an unconventional and somewhat gutsy place to (re)start Asia longhauls.

As for demand, loadfactors, and yields, I guess we just have to wait and see! I, for one, am very interested to see how this route will do... as well as LOT's future WAW to Asia routes.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 15):
How long is this flight?

WAW-HAN is scheduled at 10:45, and the return is 11:40.


User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7122 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5862 times:

Quoting WROORD (Reply 16):
I don't think LO ... would use darts to decide where they will fly next???

LO have a history of using darts....

Central wings
Beijing



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineDelta777Jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1259 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5671 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 19):
LO have a history of using darts....

I agree with this. The flight to Hanoi is quite long and it would need good revenues from Pax and Cargo to generate positive results. A WAW-DEL would make more sense for them, as there around 40 pax each day going on TK via IST to DEL from Warsaw plus the other connections to Delhi. The rest of the aircraft could be packed with connex pax from around Europe and the route isn't that long either.



Fly easyJet
User currently offlineKrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5600 times:

While it is nice to see a Eastern European airline expand instead of retract, I doubt these flights will prove to be successful. IMO the WAW-HAN flights will only become profitable if some Star Alliance carriers start feeding Asia bound pax through WAW instead of FRA.

KrisYYZ


User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7122 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5589 times:

I just don't get the LOT decision.

LO, in comparison to AF/KL/LH/BA/SK/IB is not a premier european carrier, and does not have a quality service perception in comparison to the same list of airlines. Because of this, feed using LO will be low yielding, resulting in LO needs to get the point to point traffic right. WAW is a low yielding market, with poor J class loads.

Quoting Filipair (Reply 18):
LOT already has a widebody fleet with a clear purpose (serving the transatlantic expat community) and they are simply branching out.

The Transatlantic expat polish market is very different to leisure and VFR traffic to Vietnam, who will be very low yielding indeed, with zero J class potential.

Quoting WROORD (Reply 16):
both LO and WAW are well positioned to be the gateway between Europe and Asia, especially that LH said their next focus for long haul routes is going to be Africa.

Long haul markets need excellent feed from secondary cities in Europe. LO simply dont have this in the way that AF, KL and LH have. Making a secondary european city to secondary asian city work is very very tough.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineWROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 952 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5248 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 22):
Long haul markets need excellent feed from secondary cities in Europe. LO simply dont have this in the way that AF, KL and LH have. Making a secondary european city to secondary asian city work is very very tough.

You've got to start somewhere. LH, BA or AF did not become global airlines overnight. India and China as well as Japan have plenty of competition right now so you have to start where others are not present.
LO is also building its feeding network by restarting BTS and KGD. Next they should add KUN, KSC and more German airports.


User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7122 posts, RR: 57
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5093 times:

Quoting WROORD (Reply 23):
You've got to start somewhere.

But you don't start in Hanoi - a secondary asian airport, dominated by an other alliance carrier.

Quoting WROORD (Reply 23):
you have to start where others are not present.

Ask yourself why there are no others there. Hanoi is a low yielding, VFR focused market. If its so good, why didn't vietnam airlines fly the route?



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinemarcinGDN From Poland, joined Jun 2008, 101 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4716 times:

seems to be pushed until Nov 11 and departures are later...


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