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BA 744 Takeoff At LHR.  
User currently offlineKU747 From Kuwait, joined Mar 2008, 376 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 12717 times:

This afternoon as I was standing at LHR T5 facing runway 27R watching takeoffs, I noticed a BA 744 around 19:10 took off from runway 27R starting from almost middle of the runway!!!! after takeoff it turned left heading SE. it looks very light.

Now, is this flight empty? any passengers on board? or was it a ferry flight?

Can someone explain please.

Thanks!


707,727,73all,741,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,77all,300,310,319,320,321,332,333,343,346, L10,L15,DC10,MD11,SSC,VC10
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinepsimpson From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12616 times:

Looking at the Heathrow airport movements under replay on the Casper website see below link. I see at 19.00 BAW155 LHR-CAI B744 G-CIVE depart runway 27R and turns south east on a Dover departure. I believe this is the aircraft you saw, and maybe it had a light passenger,cargo and fuel ratio allowing a short take off run.

http://casper.frontier.nl/egkk/


User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1202 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12239 times:

Middle of the runway? Sounds like an intersection takeoff...I'm surprised BA would allow it, even if it had a really light load. Most airlines forbid intersection takeoffs in their SOPs.


1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlineKU747 From Kuwait, joined Mar 2008, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12102 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 2):
Middle of the runway? Sounds like an intersection takeoff...I'm surprised BA would allow it


Well, close to middle, maybe the 2nd 1/3 of the runway, AA 777 took off after BA from the very beginning of the runway.
Usually I see those type of takeoffs from LHR done by 320's, 319's, 737's Fokker's ....etc



707,727,73all,741,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,77all,300,310,319,320,321,332,333,343,346, L10,L15,DC10,MD11,SSC,VC10
User currently offlineLHR380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12081 times:

Quoting KU747 (Reply 3):
http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...EG_AD_2_EGLL_2-1_en_2010-05-06.pdf

What intersection did they use?

Click the link above for a airport map.


User currently offlineKU747 From Kuwait, joined Mar 2008, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11971 times:

Quoting LHR380 (Reply 4):
What intersection did they use?

Maybe A5 or A6.



707,727,73all,741,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,77all,300,310,319,320,321,332,333,343,346, L10,L15,DC10,MD11,SSC,VC10
User currently offlineGLAGAZ From UK - Scotland, joined Feb 2004, 1983 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11925 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 2):
Most airlines forbid intersection takeoffs in their SOPs.

Why? If you do your performance calculations correct then there shouldn't be a problem. Does LHR have a clearway, stopway, RESA etc?

Gaz



Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware
User currently onlinefcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11925 times:

How much runway does a B747 fuelled for only a 4 hour flight need? Not a lot and it is not at all unusual for the Cairo to use an intersection.

User currently offlineFlyingfox27 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11893 times:

I was watching Radar Virtuel and noticed a few CPT and JNB flights going east to Dover then south when they usually just fly south and i get to see them fly over, was wondering this also?

User currently offlinePilot21 From Ireland, joined Oct 1999, 1384 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11809 times:

Quoting Flyingfox27 (Reply 8):
I was watching Radar Virtuel and noticed a few CPT and JNB flights going east to Dover then south when they usually just fly south and i get to see them fly over, was wondering this also?

You noticed this just for yesterday or in the past as well?
I ask because France had a lot of Public Sector strikes yesterday (Thursday 24th) and air traffic to France, Spain and Portugal was disrupted due to ATC issues.
Any aircraft flying south may have had to route closer to Belgium/Germany/Italy airspace to avoid issues.

Pilot21



Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
User currently offlineFlyingfox27 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11803 times:

Oh thats probably why, yes was only yesterday i noticed and thought it a bit odd but now i know why thanks.  

User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1202 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11649 times:

Quoting GLAGAZ (Reply 6):
Why? If you do your performance calculations correct then there shouldn't be a problem. Does LHR have a clearway, stopway, RESA etc?

I wouldn't think it should typically be an issue, but then again I'm not a pilot. I know there are several airlines that publish in their Standard Operating Procedures that they can neither request nor accept an intersection takeoff. For all I know it could be in the SOP for the individual aircraft type based on the aircraft performance, I just know that there are several US airlines I wouldn't bother trying to issue intersection takeoffs to because they can't accept it. My guess is its because of past incidents or accidents with pilots misjudging the remaining usable runway length. I know these lengths from every taxiway intersection are published for ATC and are probably easily available to pilots, the difference is if they bother using it.

It doesn't matter so much regarding airport conditions (RESA, EMAS system, etc.) because ideally you don't rely on something OFF of the runway! I would argue it's important here in PHX, especially yesterday with it being 114F/45C and 2% relative humidity, but it would make it too difficult for pilots to remember where they can and can't take intersection takeoffs. I'm sure it's much easier to just say one way or the other.

It could also be liability issues and be required by their insurance, as taking off a 747 (regardless of weight) with 6,000ft. of usable runway from an intersection versus 10,000ft. from full-length means you could be taking a much larger risk with a very expensive airplane and potentially a lot of lives. Believe me, I am ALL FOR saving time, but I seem to recall reading something somewhere about safe, orderly, and expeditious flow of traffic is important blah blah primary purpose of ATC blah but I guess being safe is probably better than getting there two minutes early...or going off and not making it at all.

In summary: I have no idea WHY, so your guess is as good as mine  



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 11382 times:

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 9):
I ask because France had a lot of Public Sector strikes yesterday (Thursday 24th) and air traffic to France, Spain and Portugal was disrupted due to ATC issues.

Try that in the UAE.....  ....maybe that's part of the reason why EK is eating everyone's lunch..  



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineBellerophon From United Kingdom, joined May 2002, 583 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10636 times:

atcsundevil

...an intersection takeoff...I'm surprised BA would allow it...

BA has always allowed intersection take-offs on all its fleets.

I'm surprised that anyone might be surprised by this!  

BA also allows tail-wind take-offs, reduced-thrust take-offs and take-offs from shorter runways where longer ones are available. Provided that the take-off performance data calculations are satisfactory, all the above options are available (but not compulsory) to the Captain.

Intersection departures can assist ATC at busy airports with sequencing and wake turbulence considerations, and helps them assist people like me, who spent a part of my career consistently requesting a runway for take-off that was not currently in use!

Thanks JFK ATC  you know who you are!

The principal advantage to a pilot, for most departures on a modern jet aircraft, in using the full length of a runway where an intersection departure would be possible, is that a lower take-off thrust setting can be used, with a corresponding reduction in engine wear and tear, but with an increase in the take-off roll.


...Most airlines forbid intersection takeoffs in their SOPs....

Most?

Some, certainly, but I would not say "most", not in my experience.


Best Regards

Bellerophon


User currently offlineLazialeMKD From French Polynesia, joined Oct 2009, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10470 times:

and what does it mean intersection takeoff?
Thanks


User currently offlineKU747 From Kuwait, joined Mar 2008, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10083 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 12):
Try that in the UAE.....  ....maybe that's part of the reason why EK is eating everyone's lunch.

What is the story in the UAE?



707,727,73all,741,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,77all,300,310,319,320,321,332,333,343,346, L10,L15,DC10,MD11,SSC,VC10
User currently offlineBA777ER236 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7655 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 2):
I'm surprised BA would allow it, even if it had a really light load. Most airlines forbid intersection takeoffs in their SOPs.

Certainly not in Europe - most airlines allow it!

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 13):
BA has always allowed intersection take-offs on all its fleets.

Agreed. BA use a sophisticated T/O data system called 'CARD'. T/O data for all permitted runways is processed by computer at LHR and sent by datalink on request to the crew. On the 777, if you 'tick' the 'intersection' field in the performance request page of the ACARS comms section of the datalink system, performance data from all available and permissable intersection departure points will be sent to the a/c and printed on the ACARS printer.

For each intersection for the ambient conditions at that time, it provides RTOW, optimum flap setting, engine derate (by the assumed temperature method) and V1,VR and V2 speeds. The system allows the pilot to input other aspects, such as technical defects that would affect performance. It also provides a print out of any runway specific requirements, such as emergency turn procedures.

Generally, the 777 T/O performance is very good and allows significant engine derating from relatively short runways at near sea level. For example, we regularly use runway 09/27 at BOS which is only a shade over 2,000m long. At typical BOS weights, we would use 20deg of flap for T/O and still use a significant derate. Usually, unless the runway is wet, there would only be a small (3-5 kts) V1/VR split as well.

At LHR in particular, there is now a directive from BA that, if in the opinion of the Captain, the reduction of engine derate is not significant, then intersection departures should be offered to ATC to allow them to sequence BA departures more efficiently. In the last couple of days there have been significant ATC delays over Europe because of the French strikes and so it may well be that the BA CAI flight had a t/o slot that was more easily achieved by the a/c having a shorter taxi to a 27 intersection. This will have been carefully checked/planned by the crew using 'CARD'.

As for the issue of the crew using the wrong intersection, well it is not unknown! However, BA are introducing a new runway distance monitoring system across the fleet (the first 777-300ER has it fitted). This should make such an incident highly unlikely. In the meantime, we are all extremely cautious about using intersections and using the correct data. We know LHR well, so the chances of a mistake are very very small!

Cheers
 



Flying would be easy if it wasn't for the ground
User currently offlineuta999 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2010, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7079 times:
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I was on the first Air France A380 departure from T4 on 12th June and we departed from S4, which is nearly a third down the runway on 27L, and only 300m from the departure gate. There were 530 passengers onboard but very little fuel for the 45 minute flight. We took off and climbed at nearly 4000fpm which was very impressive.

We returned from CDG the following day in only 39 minutes! I was expecting a 27L arrival for Terminal 4, but we had to make do with 27R. I expect it was because we were a big fat French bird.


User currently offlineBA777ER236 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6763 times:

Quoting uta999 (Reply 17):
but we had to make do with 27R. I expect it was because we were a big fat French bird.

No, that was one of the irritating things about T4 when BA used to operate from there. The local bye-laws mean that the runway at LHR changes at 15:00 local on Westerlies. Therefore, if the landing runway is 27R, you will be obliged to land on that whether you are parking at T4 or not and regardless of what airline you are flying on - there are very few exceptions.

It used to make a double Paris a really irritating day, I can assure you!

Cheers
 



Flying would be easy if it wasn't for the ground
User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6726 times:

Quoting KU747 (Reply 15):
What is the story in the UAE?

sounds like he was just comparing markets, the idea of a strike in the Middle East would be impossible.


User currently offlineLonghornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3290 posts, RR: 45
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6653 times:

Quoting LazialeMKD (Reply 14):
and what does it mean intersection takeoff?

An intersection takeoff is when a plane takes off from a point farther down the runway, as opposed to the very end. It's done for any number of reasons, but usually to save on taxi time.

Cheers,
Cameron


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6617 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5719 times:

Does intersection mean intersection with a taxiway ?


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineLazialeMKD From French Polynesia, joined Oct 2009, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5474 times:

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 20):
An intersection takeoff is when a plane takes off from a point farther down the runway, as opposed to the very end. It's done for any number of reasons, but usually to save on taxi time.

Thanks


User currently offlineflylku From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 806 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 5094 times:

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 13):
BA has always allowed intersection take-offs on all its fleets.

I'm surprised that anyone might be surprised by this!

It is always an interesting issue. I will say this, I was getting off a Delta flight into Billings Montana years ago to pick up a 172 and fly around Big Sky country. The pilots on my flight (I think we took the shuttle to the hotel together) reminded me that "there is nothing more useless than runway behind you and altitude above you." Just because you can does not mean you should.



...are we there yet?
User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 635 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 4755 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 12):
Try that in the UAE..... ....maybe that's part of the reason why EK is eating everyone's lunch..

Yep... That's killing me buddy..! Can UAE send some of their ATC agents to replace those stupid asses in France??? Please!?!?



If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
25 Oshkosh1 : Want to see a "quick" departure of a '47?...Watch them launch out of PAE on their way over to MWH on a windy day. I was in a P210 on 16L years ago and
26 atcsundevil : No need to tell me! My point was that I am aware of several US carriers who can never accept them. Since our rules tend to strive to be different fro
27 Post contains images BA777ER236 : And you could add 'fuel in the bowser (refuelling truck)'! The point is that there is usually room for compromise on a lot of these issues. I would l
28 KU747 : Got it, Thanks!
29 Aesma : To answer my own question, I found it in fact means T/O from an intersection of the runway with a taxiway (or another runway).
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